If you are hurting and not getting good rest I’ll caution you that it’s difficult to get past this when shopping. You may well lie on the best bed for you and get up in pain. I know that I have. Also when you have your new bed it may take some time to adjust to it.
Back when my initial grief started I bought my first new mattress. A Restonic dual sided pillow top called wool splendor. By todays standards it’s pretty thin on the toppings, but I still remember the first night on it. I eased in and lie on my back relaxing and I actually giggled. It was so nice to have relief. Matresses #2 (purchased)and #3 (warranty plus upgrade) were Therapedic and when #3 sucked I remembered the Stearns that I had tried and really liked but could not justify. I went to Stearns and ended up in the loop that I’m in now…
Good luck in your quest.
P.S. It’s been suggested to me to try to demo a Savvy Rest as a National type brand of configurable mattress.
PPS Make sure that your frame has the center bar and a 5th leg in the middle at a minimum. No stains on mattress etc.
As I mentioned … the only thing I would want to know with Dreamtime (or any manufacturer that uses latex in the mattress) is the type and blend of the latex so I could make better quality/value comparisons.
I’m back! It’s been an interesting day. So I was able to go to Foamite and they’ve been VERY helpful. It seems as though I need a 45-51 ILD to relieve pain and neurological symptoms. The agent basically eyeballed my alignment. I found that latex was much too soft but this may be because they only carry the 26 ILD 5.3 pounder. The bed that worked out very well was a 2.8 pounder KOOSH (proprietary material). She said they could make a bed that was 51 in the center and 40 on the top and bottom for the shoulders (if I wanted to sleep on the sides). The quilts are zippered layers (so that you can see the inside), they have bamboo and tailored cotton? It was some kind of cotton that started with a T. There was a pretty big selection, the ILD is on there. They said I can take the bed back should I need any modifications (it’ll be easy due to the removable quilt. She said my boxspring should be just fine for the KOOSH (soybean oil and other materials that were not disclosed). I’m guessing some petrochems but I don’t mind too much. Production time takes a few weeks but she said she can pull some strings. Overall pretty good experience. She even took me to a gallery of foams and talked about different compression and densities and basically what other manufacturers used. I like how they educate potential clients. The quote for the KOOSH bed was 1370 just for the mattress (though she said my boxsprng is so new after 1 year it can probably fit on it fine). The 1370 includes some kind of patterned comfort layer (basically squares with spaces for ventilation). Without this geometric comfort layer the bed will go for 768 as a slab but its much too firm (pressure points) even at the 45 ILD level. The main question is, how good is this KOOSH material? It’s a soy based HR foam.
I went to Dreamtime but had to leave due to lack of time (rush hour beginning and had to go to doctors). I couldn’t get a hold of the main agent Chris. I will visit them tomorrow but their pure latex 6"er was much too soft. But the main contact of the store said that they can order whatever material I’d like since they are a factory. I can get details tomorrow. This will be important as it might actually be proof that latex can go into really sky high ILDs - though they don’t have much on display since it’s a factory.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you say it’s all they have in latex and 26 ILD would be too soft for a support layer for many people. Koosh = HR polyfoam (the “proprietary” part is the name) which is a very high quality grade of polyfoam (made by many foam manufacturers) … similar in some ways to latex. The “soybean” oil just means that some of the petrochemical polyols in the polyfoam (polyols are one of the two main chemicals used in manufacturing polyfoam and the other one is the isocyanates) have been replaced with polyols that are chemically derived from soy oil. The typical replacement percentage is usually under 20% although some are higher. Almost every foam pourer makes so called “plant based” polyfoam and memory foam these days. It’s still just polyurethane foam.
I also have to say I really like that they started off by “eyeballing” you and thinking about the most appropriate type of mattress rather than thinking about what they can sell you. This is often a sign of someone who is more knowledgeable and service oriented than “sales and marketing” oriented and that they can provide good guidance about the the type of mattress that would suit you in the long term.
This is a meaningful zoning differential and can be of real benefit in some cases (softer under the pointier and lighter shoulders and firmer under the heavier areas of the body).
Bamboo is a viscose fiber which is a very nice material and is often blended with Cotton. It is quite popular because of the soft hand feel and moisture wicking properties of bamboo fibers. If the “starting with T” means Tencel … then this is also a viscose fiber but is made from Eucalyptus rather than bamboo … but of course it could mean anything that starts with “T” Zippered covers are great because they can allow you access to the materials inside the mattress if you need to replace them or even clean the cover.
I also like this and it’s typical of many smaller manufacturers or sleep shops who really want their customers to know the “why” behind the “what” so they can make more meaningful comparisons.
It’s a very high grade of HR polyfoam but not in the same value range as latex which would still have a performance edge in many ways (including elasticity) but it’s also less costly than latex. It would be very durable though compared to other types of polyfoam.
I’m looking forward to your feedback when you visit them. latex will generally go into the low 40’s in terms of ILD but it will also have a higher compression modulus than HR polyfoam (especially Dunlop) so softer layers can actually be more supportive (they get firmer faster than HR Polyfoam) even though they may feel softer with initial compression.
I see what you mean now when you talk about Foamite value. The polyurethane foam is the same price as the pure latex from Dreamtime. Though you can tell there’s a lot more aesthetics/decoration/setup at Foamite vs. Dreamtime which is basically a factory with a barebones display in the front. I’m guessing they don’t have to go hardcore on presentation because only people that know what they’re doing will go there and hit the bid on the materials - it seems like they are more on the wholesale side. Chris mentioned that they are a wholesale factory that is willing/able to sell retail at wholesale prices. They did have a hybrid latex and memory foam that was decent. I really have to check tomorrow though, the potential is all in that backroom rather than the showroom. Their samples also had zippered quilts to show the underlying layers.
Foamite does seem to be the most convenient option so far just because of their store setup and the amount of beds you could try out. I did test the 6" latex at Dreamtime and it was much too soft but again I’ll have to ask Chris if he can access the 40+ ILD 5.3 pounders.
Should I be worried about a 2.3 pounder polyurethane that Foamite is carrying? It’s within my price range but again as you said, value. I wonder why they don’t carry heavier latex than the 26’ers at foamite? She did confirm that’s all they had. I can see how they need thicker margins though, the store is gorgeous. I’m just concerned that I can’t test a pure 41 ILD latex’er. Factory and Dreamtime only told me density but not ILD =/. I think the ILD is key for me. That Foamite trip was definitely worth it to get a feel for what the values mean.
Yes! Tencel cotton. I remember reading on this site that ILDs are understated with latex just because of that compression modulus. So that 41 ILD could act like a 50+ if you were to compare it with polyfoam or other materials?
Thanks TD-Max I just saw your post. The pain is actually a good thing because I can tell which beds worsen it and which beds can actually get rid of it! As for money, if it’s under 1700 with everything included (incl 13% sales tax) I shouldn’t break a sweat (I live a very cheap/frugal life). The Stearn and Fosters bottom has a center bar I believe but no fifth wheel…these things are so cheap yet so important I wonder why they’d punk their customers by just giving them a 4 wheeler with no central bar.
All the value of a mattress purchase is not necessarily in the mattress itself but also in the service and selection of the retailer or manufacturer and in your confidence that the mattress you buy will provide you with the quality of sleep that you are looking for. In other words … there is a difference IMO between “commodity value” and the value of the entire mattress purchase which includes the benefits of the retailer or manufacturer you are working with. This is part of the reason why each person’s “value equation” can be so different because there can be so many objective, subjective, and intangible factors involved that each person may assign a different value to.
10 years from now you will remember much more about how well you slept on a new mattress than you will about just the price you paid.
I wouldn’t be “worried” no because even 2.3 lb is much higher quality than you would usually find in the upper layers (or support layers for that matter) of a mattress but I would take it into account in my “value comparisons”. I also find it strange that they only carry 26 ILD because the manufacturer they use makes latex in a much wider range of ILD’s. It may just be a matter of economics and simplicity in terms of ordering materials. They are the only manufacturer that i know that only carries a single ILD of latex but they work around this with variations in their polyfoam.
I would keep in mind that with local testing knowing the ILD is not nearly as important as knowing what your body feels in terms of pressure relief, alignment, and overall feel. ILD is more important if you are ordering online and are trying to “match” a mattress you have tested. Keep in mind too that different materials with the same ILD can feel very different so you aren’t mislead by the apparent softness of more elastic materials like latex which can be more supportive in spite of their softer feel. ILD is also only one of the “comfort specs” of diffferent foams that can make a real difference. Another spec that is just as important if not more so than ILD but is rarely disclosed or even talked about is compression modulus (the ratio between firmness at 25% compression and 65% copmpression) which can have more to do with comfort than ILD alone. The compression modulus of conventional foam is in the range of 2 … or less … HR foam is in the mid to upper 2’s, Talalay is in the range of upper 2’s to around 3, and Dunlop is in the range of 4. this is just as important as ILD. It’s also important to know that ILD is never exact and is within a range of tolerance and ILD is also tested differently with latex (tested on a 6" layer) compared to polyfoam (tested with a 4’ layer) so they are not apples to apples comparisons between the two materials.
Tencel is another viscose fiber similar to Bamboo but is made from Eucalyptus.
Actually latex ILD would be slightly overstated in terms of its 25% ILD (ILD is usually measured at 25% compression of a layer) because of the way it is tested compared to polyfoam (a 6" layer has to be compressed by 25% or 1.5" to get the standard 25% ILD rating while with polyfoam the 4" layer only has to be compressed by 1" to get the 25% ILD rating). The different compression moduli of each though will also make a significant difference so the actual “real life” difference may not be as much as you would otherwise think. It’s usually best to compare latex ILD’s to latex ILD’s and polyfoam ILD’s to other polyfoam ILD’s and to use “rough translations” between the two of them. ILD in memory foam can be even more confusing (and even meaningless) but that’s outside of the topic this post.
In the end … your body will probably tell you more than “specs” although specs can be useful for comparison purposes and making sense of why two mattresses may feel different.
So Dreamtime has amazing service, Chris was very patient and even showed me the back where the raw materials are. I slept on pure latex, it’s still too soft but I think those were ILD 26’ers. I think our meeting had resolved in him calling me back or me calling him Monday on whether or not he can get his hands on a firmer latex. He said he might have to resort to a thicker hybrid mattress if I want that ILD 51 (hard foam as a base). I keep seeing these 7 zone 3 incher latex comfort layers everywhere lol. So this is a great place, the problem is that once you order the mattress a refund is unlikely since they can’t turn the inventory and sell it back and there is no way to test it. He said he can 3-zone it for the same price. I was going to ask for 51 in the center, and 40 on top and bottom. Latex seems to have a lot of give - the Foamite 51 polyfoam only felt good because there were square protrusions in the mattress build that can fold in / bend - though this doubles the price of the mattress. Having a mattress without being able to test it is a huge risky shot in the dark…Unlike foamite they can’t reopen the bed and modify it.
Though despite all this, I’m happy to take HR polyfoam foamite had - it’s within range and the fact that I can test & remodify is a huge plus. I’ll find out Monday. I think regardless I’ll execute my order on Thursday after the Stearns and Fosters inspector comes in. Every night is a bit of torture though, it’s hard to sleep in this bed because I’ll get a neurological surprise that’ll wake me up, and most of the time when sleeping I’m finding I’m moving to avoid the craters. I’d pay a grand just to get the thing 2 weeks earlier (which Chris can manage). It’s hard to find a perfect bed when you’ve got neurological issues but anything would be better than the POS I’m keeping in my room.
So foamite would be 1370 + 13% tax + 80 shipping = 1628 but I can use current frame and box spring. Dreamtime can get me something best quality under a grand but no testing capability. I hate to say it but the polyfoam might be better on my back than the latex since there’s less give =/. I don’t want give. But I’ve never seen high ILD latex…
I think you are certainly asking the right questions and looking at the “tradeoffs” that would be important for your long term experience on a mattress besides just the “commodity value” which is good to see. I know it’s also frustrating to have to face the pressure of a mattress that is “torturing you” in various ways.
At least all of your choices are good ones and much better than you would be facing if you were shopping at more “typical” retailers.
There are some other good choices in the Toronto area as well but I also realize that time and circumstances can also play a big role in how many options you want to include in your research … especially when you already have good choices available to you.
This may just be a matter of the ILD of the specific latex you tested because 26 is quite soft and there are certainly firmer versions of latex available. Ikea has a 7" Dunlop latex mattress (the Edsele) which they rate as “firm” which may be worth testing as a reference although they don’t provide the ILD and it also probably isn’t the firmest latex available. A few calls to some of the options on the Toronto list specifically asking if they have a “very firm” latex mattress would also give you some options as well. None of them will likely be above mid 40’s in terms of ILD though even though this would normally be considered to be ultra firm.
Regardless though … each person has their own unique preferences and there is no “right or wrong” in each person’s choices. Any material or component can be higher or lower quality and better or worse value.
I also visited sleepworks after Dreamtime. This site is pretty accurate in its review, the mattresses there ranged from 180 dollars to 1100 - there wasn’t much on display (about 10 beds?) but they are a factory like Dreamworks. Their primo bed used a 3" latex 7 zone. The other bed that I tried and liked was 2" latex, 1" memory foam on coils. But I would want to avoid coils all together. Mario owns the store, he’s pretty passionate about his work, think he’s been in the business for 30 years. He can build custom beds but it appears as though coils is his speciality. He does have access to latex so I’ll see if I can make a call Monday to see what he can get and for how much.
Hmm Ikea may be worth trying out but without the ILD value I wouldn’t have a good idea.
I could gamble on dreamtime though, I figure anything will be better than the junk I have now. I think Chris said 50 ILD is a possibility, if not then he can make a hybrid to get that compression. I’ll see Monday with a price quote. Regardless the order will be executed this week. I hate Stearns and Foster, normally I’d like to be more methodical/thorough/patient in my shopping but I think this bed is doing damage and affecting my work life. A grand shouldn’t be a big gamble for me either.
Thanks for all the help. I’ll let you know what I get and how it turns out.
No problem. I referred some people to this site at Sleepworks if they needed further information. Seemed to impress everyone there including the owner. The previous posts were pretty helpful to me. I’d like to check out Factory Mattress but it’s out of range…but the choices, as you said, are pretty good already.
One last thing, latex is good for distributing mass over a large area, but once you go to dismount your bed or when you mount it, you will have to sit down. This scares me somewhat since I seem to sink deep into the bed. Will this change with a 40+ ILD latex? This is why the Foamite polyurethane is a ‘safer’ but more expensive choice, seems like I’m sleeping/sitting on a soft block. The latex feels frail in general but I guess with quilting it’ll feel a bit better. I’m going to see if I can get a flat quilt, though you still think I should stuff it an inch? The 26 pure 6", my shoulders sunk in too much. Chris was nice enough to open a new package and slab the two together to form a 6 incher to test it though the ILD 26 was way too soft. Sleepworks and Dreamtime carry the same 7 zoned latex slab, seems popular. I just want a 3 zone if anything.
Man I wish I found this site years ago, would have saved a lot of money and most likely would not be in this degenerating disc condition (I’m sure sleeping on a sagging mattress would not help recovery for someone who regularly pounds their back with hundreds of pounds several times a week).
There are a few factors involved with this but the simple answer is that 40 ILD latex will be much more supportive and firmer whether you are sitting or lying down.
It will depend to some degree on the overall layering of the mattress of course and how much softer latex there is to “go through” before you hit the firmer layers.
Latex is much more elastic and also “point elastic” which means that it affects the surrounding area less with compression than polyfoam so weight is effectively concentrated in a slightly smaller area than polyfoam. Many polyfoam mattresses (or innersprings for that matter) also have some type of firmer edges using firmer a polyfoam surround which can create a much firmer edge but this can be a disadvantage with a latex mattress because the polyfoam surround would be much less durable than the latex and would soften faster and there is also a risk that it could delaminate. With latex … edge support isn’t really necessary or even desirable and is sometimes used as a way to save expenses on the more expensive latex materials. Basically it’s just a matter of getting used to a mattress that doesn’t have a reinforced edge and sitting slightly further back for mounting and dismounting or sitting (or having a chair nearby for sitting).
It’s also true though that polyfoam is made in firmer versions than latex (I’ve seen polyfoam used in mattresses up to 100 ILD which is like a rock … and mostly used in the very bottom layers of a mattress)
Latex can be torn with handling but in use with sleeping or “other” mattress activities it is anything but frail (it is more durable, responsive, and evenly supportive than any other type of foam).
Yes … these are somewhat common but they are also not particularly firm (the zones usually range in the upper 20’s to mid 30’s or so). I also prefer a 3 zone and find that a 7 zone is somewhat gimmicky because the zones often have less differential between them than the natural ILD variation of a Dunlop latex core itself and there is some question about “fitting” the zones although in most cases I don’t think they are a negative or present an issue … more of a marketing thing IMO.
Well at least you’ve contributed to the knowledge base for Toronto so that others from the area that find us can benefit from your experiences. Perhaps that’s “somewhat” of a consolation … although I’d rather have a healthy back
Think I’ll go with Dreamtime just because of the turnaround time. I might just make a single layer 6 inch of 44’ish ILD latex for simplicity [hopefully he can get this on time, not sure how long it takes for him to take delivery from supplier). I’m going to lose my job if this keeps up, I can’t remember when my last night of full sleep was and I’m getting vertigo from infection from a weakened immune system. It’ll be a month until my temporary air mattress comes in but I probably can’t use it because of the dizziness. I’ll gamble with a grand just to get the bed this week. Seems like I can’t go wrong with a high ILD latex, anything is better than this Stearns and Fosters I have now and both the Foamite and the Dreamtime bed within my budget, at least I’ll still have my job. I’d sue Stearns and Fosters if I could economically…Definitely not a morning person…
When I tried the 26 latex, my shoulders sunk in a lot while on my sides. On my back I was somewhat ok, just a bit firmer and I’d be a happy camper. I also figure if i get something too hard…I can always put a topper or do a post modification (slice the quilting and insert a topper). Too bad all places don’t have a zippered quilt.
EDIT: Chris called 2 suppliers and found a 17, 18, 22, and 28 ILD. 28 ILD is the hardest he can find. He said he can make the core 28 ILD and then the comfort layer 22 ILD to give a total ILD of 50…does that make sense? I thought it was an averaging of the two layers rather than something additive? It might be worth putting in a HR polyfoam layer given the unavailability of latex over 28 ILD =/.
EDIT2: www.springmade.ca seems to be a dead site. I called up Flexopedic, they can produce a 2" latex - 4 " polyfoam - 2" latex dual sided mattress for 1000. I spoke to Frank. The brothers are retiring and are transitioning their business to A1 Quality Furniture? They will be using the same suppliers. It seems as though Frank is there leading the transition. Frank is unable to get latex above ILD 25 as well…Mario will call me back from sleepworks. Ugh…frustrating. But Foamite/Frank say that latex on its own is patchy because it’s too soft. But is that due to the fact that no one can find firm latex? My main concern isn’t expense, it’s availability! What kind of ILD would I need in the polyfoam base if I want to bring a 28 ILD latex comfort layer into a 45-50 cumulative bed ILD? Is Chris’ math wrong on that one? ILD doesn’t strike me as an additive property based on what the other stores are doing…
I’d bear in mind that you would probably want your shoulders to sink in on your side but with 26 ILD you would be running the risk of the heavier pelvis sinking in too much.
A topper can go right on top and would be fine. If you cut the mattress open and add the topper inside there may not be enough room in the ticking without “squishing” the topper inside. It’s certainly safer getting mattress that is too firm than getting one that is too soft.
I hope there’s no delays in getting the latex ILD you want. From the sounds of it … the sooner the better.
Phoenix
ADDED after your edits …
ILD is not additive but is a rating of the layer itself. In other words … putting a medium (28 ILD) layer under a soft layer (22 ILD) wouldn’t give you a firm layer.
I’m not sure why he doesn’t have access to firmer Dunlop but it certainly is available in much firmer versions.
It seems that they may be using common suppliers which is why there is so much difficulty getting firmer latex. The supplier is probably Dom Foam. Latex itself is not too soft (as many people who sleep on firm all latex mattresses will confirm) but the issue seems to be the availability of firmer Dunlop versions from a local supplier. Even Latex International makes Talalay latex in ILD’s up to 44 and Dunlop can be firmer yet.
Again … don’t forget that ILD is only one factor in how soft or firm a mattress will be (layer thickness as well as compression modulus is also part of it) but even if that’s the only thing you are using it isn’t cumulative but only a rating for the softness/firmness of the layer itself.
I have some catching up to do with the site migration and posts since then but tomorrow I’ll see if I can make a few Toronto phone calls to see what is happening.
Thanks for all your time and effort. Guess anyone from Toronto looking for a mattress will have some decently clean data up until the order point.
Yeah I think they are the same supplier, it’s the same mid-20s range. Chris was able to get softer but not the direction I wanted. I noticed he had the same 7 zone latex as Mario had. They were using the 7 zone as a selling point but seems useless to me. Frank had an interesting suggestion about the polyfoam core but if I could get the pure stuff it’s better. No flaws in a firm latex, less likely something will go wrong since it’s a pure slab. All local retails can’t seem to get something thicker than 6" if that’s another clue to the supplier. Hopefully Dom Foam isn’t the only show in town.
Another strange thing is that EVERYONE was able to give me a density but not an ILD. I don’t think its a familiar variable to mattress makers…
The Domfoam debacle led to some supply disruption in the Canadian market. The company was “split” as a result. I have talked to people who swore they will never do business with them again. Things appear to be back to normal again though based on conversations I have had with various manufacturers and retailers. You can see here that Eco-Latex is available through Dom Foam in a wide range of firmness levels. The chart is a great comparison between different methods of measuring firmness but the ILD column is out of whack compared to most other latex producers and seems to be based on incorrect “translations” rather than actual testing.
There are also ongoing lawsuits against some of the American polyfoam suppliers for price fixing on a massive scale (see here and here among many other articles about this on the internet).
That’s because almost all the dozens of latex manufacturers around the world make their latex cores in a 6" thickness (or close to that at least)
No … they’re not … although lots of people deal with them.
That’s because many Dunlop latex manufacturers don’t supply ILD’s for their Dunlop (see post #6 here) and sell it based on density with a “word” rating (soft, medium, firm). With Talalay latex manufacturers (both Latex international and Radium) its easier to find a closer ILD (although its still a range and not an exact number) because they are supplied by the manufacturer.
So Mario at sleepworks called back and said his 7 zoner is a 32 ILD and he carries 22 standards…hmm…
Stearns and Foster warranty inspector came by and found 1 3/8" depression, probably doesn’t hit threshold but I’m buying new anyway…
It’s always amazing to me how many mattress fall “just short” of the warranty exclusion. It’s almost like they know ahead of time just how much unweighted impressions are likely when they decide on the exclusion so that warranty coverage is mostly meaningless :dry:
I still haven’t had a chance to make a few calls to some of the sources on the Toronto list with many things on my plate at the moment but I would find it hard to imagine that nobody in Toronto carries firm latex.
Oh I just noticed Halstead in your site membership. I was reluctant to call over the week since it’d be easier to deal locally. Looks like they have a 40 ILD latex at 5 lbs density. It’ll cost 1300, 240 for a slatted box. I’ll figure out the box details and shipping on Monday. Looks to be best option but I can’t test it =/. It’ll be an expensive gamble. It would take 2-3 weeks to prepare. Might be an option. Quilting is 100% cotton without poisonous flame retardants.
I haven’t had the chance to call any of the Toronto outlets to see what is happening except for http://www.newdawnmattress.com/ yesterday but they are checking and were supposed to call me back today … but haven’t.
As you mention … Halstead may be the best option if nothing shows up in the GTA but I do understand your reluctance about not testing it first.
I’ll try making a few calls again tomorrow to see if I can dig anything else up. As you mentioned … at least the Toronto list is getting cleaned up a bit
Zippered covers are great because they can allow you access to the materials inside the mattress if you need to replace them or even clean the cover.