Odd request

No problem. I referred some people to this site at Sleepworks if they needed further information. Seemed to impress everyone there including the owner. The previous posts were pretty helpful to me. I’d like to check out Factory Mattress but it’s out of range…but the choices, as you said, are pretty good already.

One last thing, latex is good for distributing mass over a large area, but once you go to dismount your bed or when you mount it, you will have to sit down. This scares me somewhat since I seem to sink deep into the bed. Will this change with a 40+ ILD latex? This is why the Foamite polyurethane is a ‘safer’ but more expensive choice, seems like I’m sleeping/sitting on a soft block. The latex feels frail in general but I guess with quilting it’ll feel a bit better. I’m going to see if I can get a flat quilt, though you still think I should stuff it an inch? The 26 pure 6", my shoulders sunk in too much. Chris was nice enough to open a new package and slab the two together to form a 6 incher to test it though the ILD 26 was way too soft. Sleepworks and Dreamtime carry the same 7 zoned latex slab, seems popular. I just want a 3 zone if anything.

Man I wish I found this site years ago, would have saved a lot of money and most likely would not be in this degenerating disc condition (I’m sure sleeping on a sagging mattress would not help recovery for someone who regularly pounds their back with hundreds of pounds several times a week).

-Jason

Hi Hobotrader,

There are a few factors involved with this but the simple answer is that 40 ILD latex will be much more supportive and firmer whether you are sitting or lying down.

It will depend to some degree on the overall layering of the mattress of course and how much softer latex there is to “go through” before you hit the firmer layers.

Latex is much more elastic and also “point elastic” which means that it affects the surrounding area less with compression than polyfoam so weight is effectively concentrated in a slightly smaller area than polyfoam. Many polyfoam mattresses (or innersprings for that matter) also have some type of firmer edges using firmer a polyfoam surround which can create a much firmer edge but this can be a disadvantage with a latex mattress because the polyfoam surround would be much less durable than the latex and would soften faster and there is also a risk that it could delaminate. With latex … edge support isn’t really necessary or even desirable and is sometimes used as a way to save expenses on the more expensive latex materials. Basically it’s just a matter of getting used to a mattress that doesn’t have a reinforced edge and sitting slightly further back for mounting and dismounting or sitting (or having a chair nearby for sitting).

It’s also true though that polyfoam is made in firmer versions than latex (I’ve seen polyfoam used in mattresses up to 100 ILD which is like a rock … and mostly used in the very bottom layers of a mattress)

Latex can be torn with handling but in use with sleeping or “other” mattress activities it is anything but frail (it is more durable, responsive, and evenly supportive than any other type of foam).

Yes … these are somewhat common but they are also not particularly firm (the zones usually range in the upper 20’s to mid 30’s or so). I also prefer a 3 zone and find that a 7 zone is somewhat gimmicky because the zones often have less differential between them than the natural ILD variation of a Dunlop latex core itself and there is some question about “fitting” the zones although in most cases I don’t think they are a negative or present an issue … more of a marketing thing IMO.

Well at least you’ve contributed to the knowledge base for Toronto so that others from the area that find us can benefit from your experiences. Perhaps that’s “somewhat” of a consolation … although I’d rather have a healthy back :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Think I’ll go with Dreamtime just because of the turnaround time. I might just make a single layer 6 inch of 44’ish ILD latex for simplicity [hopefully he can get this on time, not sure how long it takes for him to take delivery from supplier). I’m going to lose my job if this keeps up, I can’t remember when my last night of full sleep was and I’m getting vertigo from infection from a weakened immune system. It’ll be a month until my temporary air mattress comes in but I probably can’t use it because of the dizziness. I’ll gamble with a grand just to get the bed this week. Seems like I can’t go wrong with a high ILD latex, anything is better than this Stearns and Fosters I have now and both the Foamite and the Dreamtime bed within my budget, at least I’ll still have my job. I’d sue Stearns and Fosters if I could economically…Definitely not a morning person…

When I tried the 26 latex, my shoulders sunk in a lot while on my sides. On my back I was somewhat ok, just a bit firmer and I’d be a happy camper. I also figure if i get something too hard…I can always put a topper or do a post modification (slice the quilting and insert a topper). Too bad all places don’t have a zippered quilt.

EDIT: Chris called 2 suppliers and found a 17, 18, 22, and 28 ILD. 28 ILD is the hardest he can find. He said he can make the core 28 ILD and then the comfort layer 22 ILD to give a total ILD of 50…does that make sense? I thought it was an averaging of the two layers rather than something additive? It might be worth putting in a HR polyfoam layer given the unavailability of latex over 28 ILD =/.

EDIT2: www.springmade.ca seems to be a dead site. I called up Flexopedic, they can produce a 2" latex - 4 " polyfoam - 2" latex dual sided mattress for 1000. I spoke to Frank. The brothers are retiring and are transitioning their business to A1 Quality Furniture? They will be using the same suppliers. It seems as though Frank is there leading the transition. Frank is unable to get latex above ILD 25 as well…Mario will call me back from sleepworks. Ugh…frustrating. But Foamite/Frank say that latex on its own is patchy because it’s too soft. But is that due to the fact that no one can find firm latex? My main concern isn’t expense, it’s availability! What kind of ILD would I need in the polyfoam base if I want to bring a 28 ILD latex comfort layer into a 45-50 cumulative bed ILD? Is Chris’ math wrong on that one? ILD doesn’t strike me as an additive property based on what the other stores are doing…

Hi Hobotrader,

I’d bear in mind that you would probably want your shoulders to sink in on your side but with 26 ILD you would be running the risk of the heavier pelvis sinking in too much.

A topper can go right on top and would be fine. If you cut the mattress open and add the topper inside there may not be enough room in the ticking without “squishing” the topper inside. It’s certainly safer getting mattress that is too firm than getting one that is too soft.

I hope there’s no delays in getting the latex ILD you want. From the sounds of it … the sooner the better.

Phoenix

ADDED after your edits …

ILD is not additive but is a rating of the layer itself. In other words … putting a medium (28 ILD) layer under a soft layer (22 ILD) wouldn’t give you a firm layer.

I’m not sure why he doesn’t have access to firmer Dunlop but it certainly is available in much firmer versions.

I confirmed that the Springmade site is down but their phone number is here http://www.yellowpages.ca/bus/Ontario/North-York/Springmade-Mattress-Mfg/2549065.html and I just called and they were closed but had a message with their new hours so it seems to be just an issue with their website.

It seems that they may be using common suppliers which is why there is so much difficulty getting firmer latex. The supplier is probably Dom Foam. Latex itself is not too soft (as many people who sleep on firm all latex mattresses will confirm) but the issue seems to be the availability of firmer Dunlop versions from a local supplier. Even Latex International makes Talalay latex in ILD’s up to 44 and Dunlop can be firmer yet.

Again … don’t forget that ILD is only one factor in how soft or firm a mattress will be (layer thickness as well as compression modulus is also part of it) but even if that’s the only thing you are using it isn’t cumulative but only a rating for the softness/firmness of the layer itself.

I have some catching up to do with the site migration and posts since then but tomorrow I’ll see if I can make a few Toronto phone calls to see what is happening.

Phoenix

http://urethaneblog.typepad.com/my_weblog/2012/01/domfoam-files-for-chapter-15-bankruptcy-protection.html

Seems less than ethical of a company haha.

Thanks for all your time and effort. Guess anyone from Toronto looking for a mattress will have some decently clean data up until the order point.

Yeah I think they are the same supplier, it’s the same mid-20s range. Chris was able to get softer but not the direction I wanted. I noticed he had the same 7 zone latex as Mario had. They were using the 7 zone as a selling point but seems useless to me. Frank had an interesting suggestion about the polyfoam core but if I could get the pure stuff it’s better. No flaws in a firm latex, less likely something will go wrong since it’s a pure slab. All local retails can’t seem to get something thicker than 6" if that’s another clue to the supplier. Hopefully Dom Foam isn’t the only show in town.

Another strange thing is that EVERYONE was able to give me a density but not an ILD. I don’t think its a familiar variable to mattress makers…

Hi Hobotrader,

The Domfoam debacle led to some supply disruption in the Canadian market. The company was “split” as a result. I have talked to people who swore they will never do business with them again. Things appear to be back to normal again though based on conversations I have had with various manufacturers and retailers. You can see here that Eco-Latex is available through Dom Foam in a wide range of firmness levels. The chart is a great comparison between different methods of measuring firmness but the ILD column is out of whack compared to most other latex producers and seems to be based on incorrect “translations” rather than actual testing.

There are also ongoing lawsuits against some of the American polyfoam suppliers for price fixing on a massive scale (see here and here among many other articles about this on the internet).

That’s because almost all the dozens of latex manufacturers around the world make their latex cores in a 6" thickness (or close to that at least)

No … they’re not :slight_smile: … although lots of people deal with them.

That’s because many Dunlop latex manufacturers don’t supply ILD’s for their Dunlop (see post #6 here) and sell it based on density with a “word” rating (soft, medium, firm). With Talalay latex manufacturers (both Latex international and Radium) its easier to find a closer ILD (although its still a range and not an exact number) because they are supplied by the manufacturer.

Phoenix

So Mario at sleepworks called back and said his 7 zoner is a 32 ILD and he carries 22 standards…hmm…
Stearns and Foster warranty inspector came by and found 1 3/8" depression, probably doesn’t hit threshold but I’m buying new anyway…

Hi Hobotrader,

It’s always amazing to me how many mattress fall “just short” of the warranty exclusion. It’s almost like they know ahead of time just how much unweighted impressions are likely when they decide on the exclusion so that warranty coverage is mostly meaningless :dry:

I still haven’t had a chance to make a few calls to some of the sources on the Toronto list with many things on my plate at the moment but I would find it hard to imagine that nobody in Toronto carries firm latex.

Phoenix

Oh I just noticed Halstead in your site membership. I was reluctant to call over the week since it’d be easier to deal locally. Looks like they have a 40 ILD latex at 5 lbs density. It’ll cost 1300, 240 for a slatted box. I’ll figure out the box details and shipping on Monday. Looks to be best option but I can’t test it =/. It’ll be an expensive gamble. It would take 2-3 weeks to prepare. Might be an option. Quilting is 100% cotton without poisonous flame retardants.

Hi Hobotrader,

I haven’t had the chance to call any of the Toronto outlets to see what is happening except for http://www.newdawnmattress.com/ yesterday but they are checking and were supposed to call me back today … but haven’t.

As you mention … Halstead may be the best option if nothing shows up in the GTA but I do understand your reluctance about not testing it first.

I’ll try making a few calls again tomorrow to see if I can dig anything else up. As you mentioned … at least the Toronto list is getting cleaned up a bit :slight_smile:

Phoenix

I called New Dawn’s number but got a Fabric Fabric store…The person that answered didn’t seem to know English and seemed hurried. They said they had latex in medium firm but couldn’t provide any further details about anything…Not sure if it’d be worth checking out =/…I starting to think the Toronto location is probably a fabric store that sells mattresses on the side?

Hi Hobotrader,

Yes … they are the same company. They have different divisions(you can see them at the bottom of their home page) one of which makes mattresses.

I took a few hours today to call and talk with most of the manufacturers in Toronto and it’s bizarre that firm latex is almost non existent in Toronto. I … like you … was told everything from “they don’t make it” to “latex is always soft” and many other versions of the same story. I explained to all of them that Toronto is the only city in the continent where nobody seems to carry it. I think this has a lot to do with some of the supply disruption that happened with the Dom foam/Valle foam legal issues. There are many that make latex hybrids that use high quality/density polyfoam as a base layer with softer latex on top but almost no firm latex cores.

There is a show happening in Toronto tomorrow where many foam manufacturers will be displaying and some of the people I talked with will be looking for firm latex (either Dunlop or Talalay). I even talked with some of them about potential alternative suppliers which I know supply firm latex and they will be doing more research into them. I have several manufacturers who are supposed to be calling me back after the show to see if they can track down either firm Talalay or Dunlop so there may be some hope.

The Toronto market is somewhat unique because there are a lot of cutthroat “here today gone tomorrow” manufacturers who buy cheap foam and then sell it at cheap prices and it seems that the market there is in many cases not geared towards high quality/value mattresses … at least for mainstream purchases.

Some possibilities that do exist for firmer latex are mostly supplied through SleepTek which has a firm Dunlop latex which is in the range of 38 - 40 ILD and has a retailer locator on the site. Some of them include http://dormio.ca/default.asp and www.somasleep.ca/ but these are not “lower budget” options. These would at least give you some places to test firm Dunlop latex in various configurations.

For now (until a few of the manufacturers I talked with find alternative suppliers) that seems to be it for firm latex in the Toronto area.

Phoenix

Thanks for all your hard work.

I’ll check out Soma tomorrow and maybe send the (ILD) specs to Halstead. They sell a 240 dollar slat foundation and can ship a 1300 latex (40 ILD) 5 pounder to Montreal for 173 (Toronto should be cheaper). I just hope that their shipping brings it into your condo and possibly assembles (he said he can reduce shipping by folding the bed in half). The price of that would match (or even best) foamite’s set lol of 1700-1800. KOOSH they were honest in saying that it’ll lose 10% of firmness as the air gets compressed out of the cells. But with latex it seems that its not a huge issue. I don’t need a mattress to last 20 year + but one that would get me back to work on time pronto and serve as a post surgical bed would be awesome. Halstead would take 2-3 weeks to manufacture but only shot I’ve got. If S&F warranties my mattress that would be great as I can wait a bit longer and possibly even benefit from a new mattress without craters. At least I’m getting closer.

Yeah…I hate my city. Again I want to move out of here. But good to know that I wasn’t the only one getting that ‘latex too soft’, 'we don’t carry anything above 26 ILD). That explains why foamite is only sporting 26’er - Dom Foam shadiness and market monopoly.

I’m just hoping a 44 ILD latex would support back and side sleeping for me =/. Shoulders sunk in on 26 latex if on side, though oddly lumbar was supported according to Chris. Foamite was going to form a 51 center for lumbar and 40 for shoulder. It’s weird, 41 felt too hard on pure KUSH (768 bed) but if I put in the contour pockets, the 51 has good firmness and comfort…so maybe a 40’ish ILD latex may do it…I’ll find out tomorrow. I’ll execute the order on Wednesday after finding out from S&F.

EDIT: Hmm researching Halstead, there are some ratings in here that put a bit of risk into the equation, mostly about not meeting manufacturing/delivery times - might be a scary proposition on a 1700 order and if my job is at risk…You don’t believe using a poly core with a 26-32 comfort layer would be good? I can probably get this made under 1000 in Toronto. I don’t need the mattress for 20 years but rather 5 (god forbid I’m still in TO lol). It’s sad when I can’t trust mattresses to last even up to 3 years now.

EDIT2: If I do get the warranty I guess I can wait until these manufacturers bite onto the new latex distributors. Not sure how long a transition like that would take but I’m guessing anyone serious about pumping out latex are probably sick of the Dom Foam issues. I could have Chris create a cheap poly/latex temporarily if S&F doesn’t work out but I was concerned that he thought ILD’s were additive. Mario does have 32s which could be a good comfort layer but I think he’ll charge around 1200 for a non pure latex bed. Heh, they’re all price anchoring for me. I know a good firm latex can be produced for 1300 now.

Might be on the checklist for tomorrow, found them from the sleeptek site: http://www.grassrootsstore.com/mattresses_s/65.htm
Oh man these values are murderous…I think its the ‘organic’ premium…Sleeptek is only retailing to these organic stores. I’d be paying a few 100 for ‘organic’ labels, despite the fact that even synthetic materials are ‘organic’ in the organic chemistry sense. Checked prices further, it appears that a double/full size will be in the 2500 category, foundation and some without. I’ll check em out to get an idea of what a 6" would feel like. Other than that Halstead I can wait if I get a warranty replacement (I would hope a warranty can last however long their production and shipping time are). But as you can tell my luck is kind of off with everything lol.

Hi Hobotrader,

I would definitely suggest testing out some latex at any of the SleepTek outlets as it will give you a good idea of what 40 ILF latex is like and give you some confidence that you are heading in a good direction. For most people … it would be very firm but each person has their own definition of what soft or firm really means.

Support is one of those “words” that can have multiple meanings and is used in different ways when it’s connected to a mattress. What I call “primary” support is about “stopping” the heavier parts of the body from sinking in too far. This is the job of the deeper support layers and 40 ILD latex would certainly be considered a firm support material in this context and would quickly “stop” any excess sinking in.

Secondary support is the job of the upper part of the mattress that fills in the more recessed curves of the spine. This could be separate layers on top of firmer support layers or it could be the upper part of a single layer. The goal here is to sink in far enough that the entire body profile is in good contact with the mattress and is “supported” in it’s natural alignment. With side sleeping … the wider lighter shoulders need to sink in far enough into the upper layers so that the torso comes into good contact with the mattress and takes up the weight that would otherwise be on the shoulders themselves (and could cause pressure and circulation issues like arms falling asleep).

Foams also get firmer as they are compressed more so sometimes a softer layer will be soft enough for the shoulders to sink in enough but still be firm enough with deeper compression to stop the heavier parts from sinking in too far. Dunlop latex has a higher compression modulus than other types of latex (it gets firmer at a faster rate with compression) so it would be considered a more “supportive” material even in softer versions. When different people test mattresses … some are more sensitive to the softness/firmness of the comfort layers and some are more sensitive to how far they sink in in total and the softness/firmness of the deeper support layers. This means that two different people of roughly the same weight and height can rate the same mattress very differently. It’s also the reason that pressure relief and support/alignment should be “separated” when people test mattresses.

Really firm support layers will stop heavier areas from sinking in more but they also need more softness over them to isolate the pressure points (like the shoulders) from the firmer core and relieving pressure.

Everything is always a balance between the need for softness on top which "allows sinking in (to different degrees depending on weight, body type, and sleeping positions) and firmness in the deeper layers to “stop” any further sinking. The key with comfort layers is “just enough” thickness and softness on top to “allow” the pressure points to sink in enough to relieve pressure but no more so that the heavier parts don’t sink in too far before they are “stopped”. Sometimes this needs multiple layers and sometimes a single layer can be both soft enough on top and firm enough with deeper compression. 44 though would not be very soft on top for most people :slight_smile:

I’ve read the same thing along with the good reviews of the product itself. I also know from personal experience that they have not always been prompt with communications but they do make a good quality/value product and I would bring this up on a call with them to make sure they know that keeping to scheduled delivery times is important. I think in most cases that shipment delays have been because of surges in business at times or because of a change in premises that they made but no matter what the cause I also believe that keeping to delivery times (outside of unusual circumstances) is important and should be “exceptions” rather than an issue that repeats.

Yes … SleepTek can be on the pricey side but at least it would give you a chance to test the material itself. Sleeptek prices also vary quite widely from place to place but none of them are exactly in the “best value” range although they certainly are good quality.

Phoenix

Ok so I checked out soma mattress since it was a 10 min drive (though this hurt a ton to sit down).
It’s run by a pair of brothers, the one I spoke to was very knowledgeable about where his products came from and how its made. He only had a 40 support, 32 comfort layer 3" + 3", but he turned it over so the 40 is on top. That was still much too soft (though only slight neuro symptoms) but he said he’ll be getting a “Sienna” model that is a pure 6 inch 40 ILD. He charges 2100 for the mattress alone (cotton/wool quilted - natural flame retardant) and 450 for box spring delivery assembly etc. I think I actually do need a 50’ish ILD. The 32 support, 40 comfort didn’t do it. Nor did a 32-37. Soma only seems to carry Dunlop in sticking to its 100% natural theme. I’ll check out the 40 next week but see if Halstead can produce something harder. I looked at online retailers but they aren’t too transparent. Some prices were just whack.

I’m guessing my Stearns and Fosters is in the 40s, everyone comments on how hard/firm it is. I guess worst case I can get a polyurethane from Foamite though I think there is a ‘natural/organic’ premium - I couldn’t care less if it was organic or not. Or I could just call Chris and ask about his poly inventory and just make a 62 OLD 2.5 lbs polyfoam with a 26 latex comfort layer…Should be under 800 bucks. I’ll do that if my warranty doesn’t execute. Flexopedic is too far to travel given spinal issues - but their latex hybrid would be 1200. Foamite does have a pure poly bed - 1 slab and that’s about 760 bucks…though it caused pressure points from what I remember in the 40s.

Oh yeah the Soma sleep guy hasn’t heard of Dom Foam and highest ILD he’s seen (for natural) is 42. Greensleep is the other person he buys from but I refuse to pay a green premium out of principle lol. Hopefully some of the factories/manufacturers bit at the new foam exhibit today. Oh yeah, the Winnipeg Mattress Underground member restmore.net? is down. I’d buy to ship but the @#%'ing customs are probably going to rip me a new one for crossing the border…so much for NAFTA.

Hi Hobotrader,

You would probably be the only person I know who could sleep on a mattress that used 40 ILD Dunlop in the top layer and I would really wonder how well it would work over the course of a night in terms of pressure relief. I just can’t imagine 40 ILD Dunlop being too soft or not supportive enough for anyone … but again your own personal testing “trumps” everything else. I just hope you’re not confusing the “feel” and elasticity of latex with being unsupportive.

Some of the online members here will ship to Canada as well which may also be an option (and they carry firm Dunlop as well as Talalay) but they would need to go across the border which would involve shipping costs along with HST and brokerage. I don’t know of any latex that is 50 ILD.

There are some softer layers on top that allow the firmer layers underneath to “come through” although they don’t release the actual ILD’s of the polyfoam. Almost all firm or ultra firm mainstream mattresses have some soft foam on top … just not as much as the softer models.

I think he probably meant Latex Green (Greensleep is a mattress manufacturer not a latex foam producer) which is a well known source of good quality latex that also supplies several of the members of the site (and many others) with their Dunlop latex. They also have certified organic Dunlop latex but I personally wouldn’t pay the premium over their 100% natural dunlop (see post #6 here).

Thanks for the heads up. Their website isn’t a priority (they are mostly wholesale) but you can reach them at the contact information here

I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up with at the end of this journey.

Phoenix

I’ll call Brooklyn Bedding tomorrow, quite excited at prices and value…I can pay hundreds in shipping and I will likely come out ahead. I’d have to pay HST here anyway, at least the subtotal will be puny. Heck, even the tax differential on a higher subtotal may trump the shipping costs sadly.

Yeah the 40 was definitely comfortable, but it didn’t feel supportive. It was 6" 32 support core, and 40 top layer (it was upside-down). I’ll check out the Sienna next week to see what a pure 40 feels like. That bed felt like it was ‘getting there’, just needs a bit more firmness and it’d be a go.

Yeah I’m a pretty dense guy, 210 lbs on a 5’7 frame with a bad back. That mattress just felt soft/weak. Guess I misheard Chris the first time, I thought he said he could only find 70 ILD firm but he meant 17…I was on transit, in Toronto cell reception is horrible on trains if you even get reception (only a few stations are open air), but our phone carriers suck as well since it’s a nasty oligopoly created by our government. Funny how my mattress situation might be solved as easily as just ordering outside the country (I will be punished for this through taxation). I’ll call Brooklyn tomorrow as Amazon refuses to ship this thing to Canada. I’ll see what their firmest ILD is.

Hi Hobotrader,

I’m not sure if Dreamfoam ships to Canada but a few of our members (and some that aren’t members) do that have Firm Dunlop (or Talalay) latex. They are listed in post #21 here

Phoenix

Hi Hobotrader,

I got a phone call this morning (at 5:00AM my time :)) from Springmade and he told me he could get a 40 ILD queen layer (made by latex green) for $1000 and then add the cost of whatever cover you wanted. I told him I would let you know and you could call him. The only problem is that he only will bring it in if you know you want it because he doesn’t want to sit on a latex core that nobody will buy (it seems that not only are they not easily available in Toronto but that nobody buys them). It’s like a chicken and egg thing … I don’t know if nobody buys them because they aren’t available or if they aren’t available because nobody buys them. He said it’s the first request he’s had for latex that firm in 17 years.

Phoenix

Thanks for the tip. I called, they’re pretty friendly, patient, and good humored. I talked to Mauricio. Their suppliers have it in stock and they can turn a mattress around within days. This is perfect. They also suggested (for firm beds) cement foam. It’s 2.8 lbs/ft^3 density polyfoam to hit the high ILD ranges. He’ll call to see if he can get firmer latex. I’ll visit them this week or weekend. Thanks for all the help! I’m realizing this thread is getting a bit long hahah, but understandable considering the market here…He did give the impression that latex was too expensive at around a grand, the cement foam is 460 bucks. Quilting can be made however. I’ll check out the 40s at Soma and if that works I can punch in an order (hopefully Mauricio could get firmer than 40). The firmer the better I find. I’ll keep you posted. Guess I’ll continue posting until I review the bed and do another review after a few months.