I called New Dawn’s number but got a Fabric Fabric store…The person that answered didn’t seem to know English and seemed hurried. They said they had latex in medium firm but couldn’t provide any further details about anything…Not sure if it’d be worth checking out =/…I starting to think the Toronto location is probably a fabric store that sells mattresses on the side?
Hi Hobotrader,
Yes … they are the same company. They have different divisions(you can see them at the bottom of their home page) one of which makes mattresses.
I took a few hours today to call and talk with most of the manufacturers in Toronto and it’s bizarre that firm latex is almost non existent in Toronto. I … like you … was told everything from “they don’t make it” to “latex is always soft” and many other versions of the same story. I explained to all of them that Toronto is the only city in the continent where nobody seems to carry it. I think this has a lot to do with some of the supply disruption that happened with the Dom foam/Valle foam legal issues. There are many that make latex hybrids that use high quality/density polyfoam as a base layer with softer latex on top but almost no firm latex cores.
There is a show happening in Toronto tomorrow where many foam manufacturers will be displaying and some of the people I talked with will be looking for firm latex (either Dunlop or Talalay). I even talked with some of them about potential alternative suppliers which I know supply firm latex and they will be doing more research into them. I have several manufacturers who are supposed to be calling me back after the show to see if they can track down either firm Talalay or Dunlop so there may be some hope.
The Toronto market is somewhat unique because there are a lot of cutthroat “here today gone tomorrow” manufacturers who buy cheap foam and then sell it at cheap prices and it seems that the market there is in many cases not geared towards high quality/value mattresses … at least for mainstream purchases.
Some possibilities that do exist for firmer latex are mostly supplied through SleepTek which has a firm Dunlop latex which is in the range of 38 - 40 ILD and has a retailer locator on the site. Some of them include http://dormio.ca/default.asp and www.somasleep.ca/ but these are not “lower budget” options. These would at least give you some places to test firm Dunlop latex in various configurations.
For now (until a few of the manufacturers I talked with find alternative suppliers) that seems to be it for firm latex in the Toronto area.
Phoenix
Thanks for all your hard work.
I’ll check out Soma tomorrow and maybe send the (ILD) specs to Halstead. They sell a 240 dollar slat foundation and can ship a 1300 latex (40 ILD) 5 pounder to Montreal for 173 (Toronto should be cheaper). I just hope that their shipping brings it into your condo and possibly assembles (he said he can reduce shipping by folding the bed in half). The price of that would match (or even best) foamite’s set lol of 1700-1800. KOOSH they were honest in saying that it’ll lose 10% of firmness as the air gets compressed out of the cells. But with latex it seems that its not a huge issue. I don’t need a mattress to last 20 year + but one that would get me back to work on time pronto and serve as a post surgical bed would be awesome. Halstead would take 2-3 weeks to manufacture but only shot I’ve got. If S&F warranties my mattress that would be great as I can wait a bit longer and possibly even benefit from a new mattress without craters. At least I’m getting closer.
Yeah…I hate my city. Again I want to move out of here. But good to know that I wasn’t the only one getting that ‘latex too soft’, 'we don’t carry anything above 26 ILD). That explains why foamite is only sporting 26’er - Dom Foam shadiness and market monopoly.
I’m just hoping a 44 ILD latex would support back and side sleeping for me =/. Shoulders sunk in on 26 latex if on side, though oddly lumbar was supported according to Chris. Foamite was going to form a 51 center for lumbar and 40 for shoulder. It’s weird, 41 felt too hard on pure KUSH (768 bed) but if I put in the contour pockets, the 51 has good firmness and comfort…so maybe a 40’ish ILD latex may do it…I’ll find out tomorrow. I’ll execute the order on Wednesday after finding out from S&F.
EDIT: Hmm researching Halstead, there are some ratings in here that put a bit of risk into the equation, mostly about not meeting manufacturing/delivery times - might be a scary proposition on a 1700 order and if my job is at risk…You don’t believe using a poly core with a 26-32 comfort layer would be good? I can probably get this made under 1000 in Toronto. I don’t need the mattress for 20 years but rather 5 (god forbid I’m still in TO lol). It’s sad when I can’t trust mattresses to last even up to 3 years now.
EDIT2: If I do get the warranty I guess I can wait until these manufacturers bite onto the new latex distributors. Not sure how long a transition like that would take but I’m guessing anyone serious about pumping out latex are probably sick of the Dom Foam issues. I could have Chris create a cheap poly/latex temporarily if S&F doesn’t work out but I was concerned that he thought ILD’s were additive. Mario does have 32s which could be a good comfort layer but I think he’ll charge around 1200 for a non pure latex bed. Heh, they’re all price anchoring for me. I know a good firm latex can be produced for 1300 now.
Might be on the checklist for tomorrow, found them from the sleeptek site: http://www.grassrootsstore.com/mattresses_s/65.htm
Oh man these values are murderous…I think its the ‘organic’ premium…Sleeptek is only retailing to these organic stores. I’d be paying a few 100 for ‘organic’ labels, despite the fact that even synthetic materials are ‘organic’ in the organic chemistry sense. Checked prices further, it appears that a double/full size will be in the 2500 category, foundation and some without. I’ll check em out to get an idea of what a 6" would feel like. Other than that Halstead I can wait if I get a warranty replacement (I would hope a warranty can last however long their production and shipping time are). But as you can tell my luck is kind of off with everything lol.
Hi Hobotrader,
I would definitely suggest testing out some latex at any of the SleepTek outlets as it will give you a good idea of what 40 ILF latex is like and give you some confidence that you are heading in a good direction. For most people … it would be very firm but each person has their own definition of what soft or firm really means.
Support is one of those “words” that can have multiple meanings and is used in different ways when it’s connected to a mattress. What I call “primary” support is about “stopping” the heavier parts of the body from sinking in too far. This is the job of the deeper support layers and 40 ILD latex would certainly be considered a firm support material in this context and would quickly “stop” any excess sinking in.
Secondary support is the job of the upper part of the mattress that fills in the more recessed curves of the spine. This could be separate layers on top of firmer support layers or it could be the upper part of a single layer. The goal here is to sink in far enough that the entire body profile is in good contact with the mattress and is “supported” in it’s natural alignment. With side sleeping … the wider lighter shoulders need to sink in far enough into the upper layers so that the torso comes into good contact with the mattress and takes up the weight that would otherwise be on the shoulders themselves (and could cause pressure and circulation issues like arms falling asleep).
Foams also get firmer as they are compressed more so sometimes a softer layer will be soft enough for the shoulders to sink in enough but still be firm enough with deeper compression to stop the heavier parts from sinking in too far. Dunlop latex has a higher compression modulus than other types of latex (it gets firmer at a faster rate with compression) so it would be considered a more “supportive” material even in softer versions. When different people test mattresses … some are more sensitive to the softness/firmness of the comfort layers and some are more sensitive to how far they sink in in total and the softness/firmness of the deeper support layers. This means that two different people of roughly the same weight and height can rate the same mattress very differently. It’s also the reason that pressure relief and support/alignment should be “separated” when people test mattresses.
Really firm support layers will stop heavier areas from sinking in more but they also need more softness over them to isolate the pressure points (like the shoulders) from the firmer core and relieving pressure.
Everything is always a balance between the need for softness on top which "allows sinking in (to different degrees depending on weight, body type, and sleeping positions) and firmness in the deeper layers to “stop” any further sinking. The key with comfort layers is “just enough” thickness and softness on top to “allow” the pressure points to sink in enough to relieve pressure but no more so that the heavier parts don’t sink in too far before they are “stopped”. Sometimes this needs multiple layers and sometimes a single layer can be both soft enough on top and firm enough with deeper compression. 44 though would not be very soft on top for most people 
I’ve read the same thing along with the good reviews of the product itself. I also know from personal experience that they have not always been prompt with communications but they do make a good quality/value product and I would bring this up on a call with them to make sure they know that keeping to scheduled delivery times is important. I think in most cases that shipment delays have been because of surges in business at times or because of a change in premises that they made but no matter what the cause I also believe that keeping to delivery times (outside of unusual circumstances) is important and should be “exceptions” rather than an issue that repeats.
Yes … SleepTek can be on the pricey side but at least it would give you a chance to test the material itself. Sleeptek prices also vary quite widely from place to place but none of them are exactly in the “best value” range although they certainly are good quality.
Phoenix
Ok so I checked out soma mattress since it was a 10 min drive (though this hurt a ton to sit down).
It’s run by a pair of brothers, the one I spoke to was very knowledgeable about where his products came from and how its made. He only had a 40 support, 32 comfort layer 3" + 3", but he turned it over so the 40 is on top. That was still much too soft (though only slight neuro symptoms) but he said he’ll be getting a “Sienna” model that is a pure 6 inch 40 ILD. He charges 2100 for the mattress alone (cotton/wool quilted - natural flame retardant) and 450 for box spring delivery assembly etc. I think I actually do need a 50’ish ILD. The 32 support, 40 comfort didn’t do it. Nor did a 32-37. Soma only seems to carry Dunlop in sticking to its 100% natural theme. I’ll check out the 40 next week but see if Halstead can produce something harder. I looked at online retailers but they aren’t too transparent. Some prices were just whack.
I’m guessing my Stearns and Fosters is in the 40s, everyone comments on how hard/firm it is. I guess worst case I can get a polyurethane from Foamite though I think there is a ‘natural/organic’ premium - I couldn’t care less if it was organic or not. Or I could just call Chris and ask about his poly inventory and just make a 62 OLD 2.5 lbs polyfoam with a 26 latex comfort layer…Should be under 800 bucks. I’ll do that if my warranty doesn’t execute. Flexopedic is too far to travel given spinal issues - but their latex hybrid would be 1200. Foamite does have a pure poly bed - 1 slab and that’s about 760 bucks…though it caused pressure points from what I remember in the 40s.
Oh yeah the Soma sleep guy hasn’t heard of Dom Foam and highest ILD he’s seen (for natural) is 42. Greensleep is the other person he buys from but I refuse to pay a green premium out of principle lol. Hopefully some of the factories/manufacturers bit at the new foam exhibit today. Oh yeah, the Winnipeg Mattress Underground member restmore.net? is down. I’d buy to ship but the @#%'ing customs are probably going to rip me a new one for crossing the border…so much for NAFTA.
Hi Hobotrader,
You would probably be the only person I know who could sleep on a mattress that used 40 ILD Dunlop in the top layer and I would really wonder how well it would work over the course of a night in terms of pressure relief. I just can’t imagine 40 ILD Dunlop being too soft or not supportive enough for anyone … but again your own personal testing “trumps” everything else. I just hope you’re not confusing the “feel” and elasticity of latex with being unsupportive.
Some of the online members here will ship to Canada as well which may also be an option (and they carry firm Dunlop as well as Talalay) but they would need to go across the border which would involve shipping costs along with HST and brokerage. I don’t know of any latex that is 50 ILD.
There are some softer layers on top that allow the firmer layers underneath to “come through” although they don’t release the actual ILD’s of the polyfoam. Almost all firm or ultra firm mainstream mattresses have some soft foam on top … just not as much as the softer models.
I think he probably meant Latex Green (Greensleep is a mattress manufacturer not a latex foam producer) which is a well known source of good quality latex that also supplies several of the members of the site (and many others) with their Dunlop latex. They also have certified organic Dunlop latex but I personally wouldn’t pay the premium over their 100% natural dunlop (see post #6 here).
Thanks for the heads up. Their website isn’t a priority (they are mostly wholesale) but you can reach them at the contact information here
I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up with at the end of this journey.
Phoenix
I’ll call Brooklyn Bedding tomorrow, quite excited at prices and value…I can pay hundreds in shipping and I will likely come out ahead. I’d have to pay HST here anyway, at least the subtotal will be puny. Heck, even the tax differential on a higher subtotal may trump the shipping costs sadly.
Yeah the 40 was definitely comfortable, but it didn’t feel supportive. It was 6" 32 support core, and 40 top layer (it was upside-down). I’ll check out the Sienna next week to see what a pure 40 feels like. That bed felt like it was ‘getting there’, just needs a bit more firmness and it’d be a go.
Yeah I’m a pretty dense guy, 210 lbs on a 5’7 frame with a bad back. That mattress just felt soft/weak. Guess I misheard Chris the first time, I thought he said he could only find 70 ILD firm but he meant 17…I was on transit, in Toronto cell reception is horrible on trains if you even get reception (only a few stations are open air), but our phone carriers suck as well since it’s a nasty oligopoly created by our government. Funny how my mattress situation might be solved as easily as just ordering outside the country (I will be punished for this through taxation). I’ll call Brooklyn tomorrow as Amazon refuses to ship this thing to Canada. I’ll see what their firmest ILD is.
Hi Hobotrader,
I’m not sure if Dreamfoam ships to Canada but a few of our members (and some that aren’t members) do that have Firm Dunlop (or Talalay) latex. They are listed in post #21 here
Phoenix
Hi Hobotrader,
I got a phone call this morning (at 5:00AM my time :)) from Springmade and he told me he could get a 40 ILD queen layer (made by latex green) for $1000 and then add the cost of whatever cover you wanted. I told him I would let you know and you could call him. The only problem is that he only will bring it in if you know you want it because he doesn’t want to sit on a latex core that nobody will buy (it seems that not only are they not easily available in Toronto but that nobody buys them). It’s like a chicken and egg thing … I don’t know if nobody buys them because they aren’t available or if they aren’t available because nobody buys them. He said it’s the first request he’s had for latex that firm in 17 years.
Phoenix
Thanks for the tip. I called, they’re pretty friendly, patient, and good humored. I talked to Mauricio. Their suppliers have it in stock and they can turn a mattress around within days. This is perfect. They also suggested (for firm beds) cement foam. It’s 2.8 lbs/ft^3 density polyfoam to hit the high ILD ranges. He’ll call to see if he can get firmer latex. I’ll visit them this week or weekend. Thanks for all the help! I’m realizing this thread is getting a bit long hahah, but understandable considering the market here…He did give the impression that latex was too expensive at around a grand, the cement foam is 460 bucks. Quilting can be made however. I’ll check out the 40s at Soma and if that works I can punch in an order (hopefully Mauricio could get firmer than 40). The firmer the better I find. I’ll keep you posted. Guess I’ll continue posting until I review the bed and do another review after a few months.
40 ILD? WOW
Have you tried a Stearns Ultra Firm? Not suggesting that you purchase one, but the Adele ultra that we tried felt like I could feel the outline of my body where it pressed ever so slightly into whatever foam it used.
Nope…wouldn’t have access…I have the Boulevard - it was the only S&F the stores I visited carried at the time. Never again, only going factory direct only. It’s insane, you get 1/3 the price and you can customize it. So there was a ton of pushback is what you’re saying?
OK I gots to know: What is cement foam?
Also I’d suggest sticking to your guns on the Stearns warranty and maybe try again in 6 months. If the sagging is slow recovery there are some things that you can do to help this along.
Cement foam is probably just polyurethane foam that’s just crazy ILD.
I’ll let you know when I check it out, should be at that place by Saturday at the very latest.
I was curious so I did some quick google searching and there actually is a foam that is either foamed cement or polyurethane mixed with Portland cement but most of it is used in construction and road work.
I would also think that in this case it means polyfoam with "crazy’ ILD’s but I’d be interested in what they say about it.
Phoenix
Just an update:
Sears needs a 2" depression for warranty, different from the 1.5" the salesman told me at the point of sale. Exchanges are up to manager discretion, though fortunately I think they will allow an exchange. I’d still rather get something of quality…
Cement foam is just densely packed polyurethane - it is 2.8 lbs / ft^3
Springmade ordered a queen that should be ready as a sample on Saturday though I need a double, I feel bad for mis-communication but he said he never usually encounters hard latex (mostly due to price sensitivity of consumers) and people have been asking for hard beds - so I can try out both the latex bed and cement foam on Saturday. I’m impressed with Springmade so far. They say they’re a mom and pop shop, not huge profit margins. They’ve pretty cool people there. Think Mauricio and Joe are 2 brothers that run it. I’ll keep you posted. I may visit tomorrow if I can get the time off work. I think Mauricio does deliveries with a helper so I’m wondering if he helps set up, him and Joe alternate as delivery people.
Just a thought, if Sears will give you an exchange, ask them to leave it in the plastic and put it up on kijiji or something and sell it. Put the proceeds towards something else.
Yeah it’s a smart idea. I considered doing that but I’m giving the bed to a family member, taking a 1.2k hit.
Looks like Greensleep didn’t have the 40 ILD in stock but I should get the new replacement bed from Sears, so I won’t bash them too much…at least the Yorkdale location. Looks like I’ll be getting a 1 grand Simmons as replacement/gift to someone else but I’ll use it first prior to ordering mine. Guess I have to call again Monday to determine their supply status. Soma won’t get their Sienna until Jan 29…so many problems. Oh yeah, Halstead has not responded to my e-mails from Jan 11 2013 nor has Brooklyn Bedding over the weekend. I called Brooklyn, seemed to be a dude with a voicemail (probably the owner?).
Hi Hobotrader,
I called them when I read this just now and talked with Martin and they do have 40 ILD latex and can ship it anywhere. He is also getting his wife to check their emails to see if there is anything they missed. He also said that you could call him or email him directly at [email protected].
The person who almost always answers the phone at Brooklyn Bedding is Chuck who is not the owner but the one who deals with all of their customer enquiries. He’s usually pretty good at replying but over the weekend you may not receive a reply.
Phoenix
Yeah my e-mail went to [email protected] - I spoke to him over the phone. The e-mail didn’t bounce so I assume it was a legit account, maybe I misheard Ryan for Martin?
Brooklyn I called on a weekday but people do get busy - yeah I think it was a young sounding dude. I didn’t do a repeat call because Springmade had what I wanted and were very responsive. It’s easier to deal local. But if it collapses I’ll go looking for other places. They said their supplier did not have a 40 in stock so they couldn’t get a display queen. We thought they’d have it in by Saturday (today), I was halfway there. I’ll try calling again Monday to get further details. They have the price point that I want and location. Shipping shouldn’t be brutal.
Thanks for checking out communications. Could be a mistake on my end.