Phoenix: I guess what I am asking is your ( opinion ,not holding you to it ) is: A 3" X firm Dunlop bottom with a #’ Soft latex Top should give firm support with enough softness for rolling on the side when sleeping? Know you cannot guarantee it will meet my perfect expectations. Just would like your opinion if this combination makes sense to get close to what I would want ?
Hi Turtlebed,
There is really no way for me to know this because I can’t feel what you feel and there there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved. Having said that … your comments about the types of mattress you tend to prefer (a firm mattress with some softness on top) and the fact that you are in a lower weight range would both increase the odds that a thinner 6" mattress with a soft/firm combination could work for you in terms of PPP.
Phoenix
Pheonix: Much thanks for helping me talk this out ,it was most helpful. I will check out , Thenaturalmattress store again and call sleeping organic in South Carolina and make a decision . If I still cannot make a decision,: The comfort of the mattress comes first and I will consider the 9" version at thenaturalmattress store ,even though ithe mattress will be 3" above the posts. If it drives me crazy , I will sell the bed since it is brand new and got a price on a site that was $300 lower than anywhere else . LOL Enjoy the week , the Fourth of July . I will let you know the outcome of my decision when the mattress is ordered. Again most appreciative of your help
Hi Turtlebed,
I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding 
Phoenix
Hi Pheonix: Still have not decided … But getting close … Would appreciate your opinion in making my final decision.
ALL NATUURAL LATEX
I tested two configurations : Foam Order: 3" Firm Dunlop on the bottom with 3" Soft Dunlop on top from
The Natural Mattress Store 3" Firm Dunlop on the bottom with 3" Soft Talalay on the top
Both mattress combinations felt good : The all dunlop was a bit firmer but still comfortable when turning to my side. The Talalay had a more cushion feel to it . My only concern would i start sinkinking and loose supportt??
Foam Order: The two latex cores are put in a organic cotton zippered case (Similar to a pillow protector) then covered in a stretch shear knit cover ( not sure if the knit cover is organic?) THe floor sample the knit cover was all stretched out and baggy , which concerned me … Foam order also has available a zippered mattress encasemennt with a wool layer , which I was considering ,until I noticed the flap where the zipper is does not lie flat and sticks out . When I noticed the problem I asked , how will the sheets lie flat and got a blank look … I like that foam order cuts their full mattresses 53" wide which fits nicely in the slatted bed frame and when added layers of bedding are added the bedding and mattress does not protrude over the side rails of the bed. I will return to Foam Order tomorrow and confirm the zipper problem
The Natural Mattress Store:
The NM Store will make a custom bed. #’ Firm Dunlop,3"Soft Talalay(Top) in a with wool and cotton . The mattress is cut 54"wide and the case is quite padded. They have another case without wool/cotton (with doctors note), but not able to test or see it .
As far as which combination of latex is best I will try both again this week.
The Foam Order mattress in the knit case I could feel the latex
With the NM Store encasement I did not feel the latex as much
Cost:
Both Stores Run Close in Price with a ticking type case
Foam Order: Cores + cotton zipper (pillow protector type case) covered in thin stretch knit type case (Runs approx $600 less)
Questions:
I am assuming it is advisable to get a ticking type case?
If the ticking type case at Foam Order cannot work out ? Where can I find an organic ticking type case 6" deep?
Do I need the wool and cotton in the ticking case?
I was thinking if I put an organic wool mattress protector on top of the mattress ,why would I need wool inside the encasement? (Have a doctors note to avoid flame retardant protection)
Decision to make:
The Foam Order combination Dulop/Dunlop feels more supportive at this point . and I can always add an inch topper of talalay if down the road need slight more cushion? The mattress will have a lower profile which I need for the type of bed fram I have .
My main concern , without a thicker zippered encasement and having the cotton zippered encasemennt (similiar to a pillow protector) covered with the thin stretch knit case , mattress protector on top : Will that be enough protection for the Latex Cores ?
My concern with the NM Store: Since this is a custom order and not one of their regular stocked configurations: There is No Return on the Mattress. There is a comfort exchange available but there would be nothing to exchange since they do not carry Soft Dunlop . if the Talalay top layer became too soft , there would be nothing to exchange the layer for .
I understand a ticking type encasement will provide more durable protection for the mattress . If i go with Foam Order where to I find a Ticking type zippered case that is 6 inches deep made of Organic Cotton
Thanks for listening: Most appreciative of any help you might have . Much thanks:
Hi Turtlebed,
Your own testing and personal experience would be the most reliable way to know whether a mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP. It doesn’t matter how much you sink into a mattress … only how evenly (see post #6 here).
If you can’t test a mattress in person then the return or exchange policy may become a more important part of your personal value equation just in case your sleeping experience indicates the mattress isn’t as good a “match” for you as you hoped for. The mattress cover can also make a significant difference in how the mattress feels and performs.
A quilted cover can certainly affect the feel of the latex underneath it. Some people prefer this and some don’t. Thicker quilting layers will have a bigger effect than thinner quilting layers and a knit cover that stretches will have the least effect of all.
I’m not sure what you mean by a “ticking type case” but if you mean a case that uses wool quilting then post #6 here has more about the pros and cons of wool quilted covers. The choice between them would be personal preference. A good quality mattress cover is also important to protect the latex inside it from oxidation and premature breakdown. Post #3 here has some good examples of how different types of covers can affect or protect the latex inside them
The DIY component post here includes the better sources I’m aware of where you can buy mattress covers separately.
The encasement is meant to make sure that the mattress passes the fire regulations and is specifically meant to surround the mattress, help it keep its shape, and also contributes to the “feel” and design goals of the mattress. Wool is a natural material so if you prefer a wool quilted cover then there would be no need for a doctors note to get a “chemical free” mattress. A mattress protector is just meant to protect the top surface of the mattress from the body fluids that we release each night along with accidents and spills and can be easily removed and cleaned to keep your sleeping surface in a clean and hygienic condition. A mattress ticking will also usually include more wool than a mattress protector. A mattress cover is meant to be part of the feel and performance of the mattress and a mattress protector is meant to have the least possible effect on the mattress. Again these are all preference choices.
You can certainly add a topper to any mattress that is too firm is you need additional pressure relief. I would also make sure that you understand the difference between a mattress that “feels” firmer and a mattress that provides better alignment. Support/alignment is about how well your spine is alignment in all your sleeping positions and this is what you will tend to feel when you wake up in the morning (either with or without lower back pain or discomfort). A mattress that is too firm and a mattress that is too soft can both provide poor alignment in all your sleeping positions. Firmer isn’t necessarily better for the type of evenly supportive mattress that keeps your spine in good alignment. The floor for example would be much to firm to provide good support for all the curves of the body.
This is certainly a valid concern and when you can’t test a mattress in person then options you have after a purchase to customize the mattress, exchange layers, or return the mattress if it doesn’t work out as well as you hoped can be an important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase. Talalay latex is a very durable material in a suitable firmness level. If a mattress that used it in the comfort layers was a good match for you in terms of PPP and wasn’t “on the edge” in terms of softness (where even a small amount of softening could take you over the edge) then durability wouldn’t be a concern. There is more in post #4 here and the other posts it links to about the many variables that can affect durability and the useful life of a mattress relative to each person.
Post #2 here also has more about making “final choices” when you are comparing mattresses that are both good quality, have no weak links in their design, and there are no clear winners between them.
Phoenix
Phoenix:Thanks for the quick response . I was a able to test the mattress at the Natural mattress store , they removed a layer from their 9" mattress , I think I will be better with the foam order 3" Dunlop, bottom with 3" Dunlop Soft . If over time I need a bit more cushion on side sleeping , can at Talalay soft topper. I will try both set ups again this week.
Thank you for DIY . They have 2 mattress encasements that are organic , one is a Knit Fabric and one is Quilted. I have read that Knit is better for the latex??? Will there be enough protection for the latex :
Foam Order Latex: Covered in a zippered pillow protector type case then covering that
with the DIY Knit Case or Quilted Case ?
I think you mentioned that wool in the case helps keep the shape of the latex mattress? If that is the case : Would putting a wool pad on top of the mattress inside the case ? Instead of using loose wool batting ?
I am starting to smile I am getting closer to getting a new mattress an it will be costing a lot less than I anticipated thanks to you.
Hi Turtlebed,
This would be a preference choice and some people prefer one and some the other. The links about wool quilting and about the differences in the degree of protection between different covers in my last reply would answer both of these questions. If a mattress cover is designed to be used as part of the mattress construction (and isn’t a just a mattress protector) it would generally be fine although some would provide better protection for the latex than others. This is all part of the tradeoffs involved with every mattress choice.
It’s not the wool that would help a mattress keep its shape as much as using a suitable cover. I wouldn’t put loose wool inside a mattress cover. The quilting in a cover designed to be used with a mattress will keep the wool from shifting and migrating.
There may be some even less costly options yet in the lists that are linked in the tutorial post and in the DIY component list but either way I’ll be very interested in finding out what you end up deciding.
Phoenix
Phoenix: If it is the cover that protects the latex and not the wool then I would think that the 2 dunlop cores covered in the Foam order (pillow protector type cover) then covering that cover with a DIY quilted or knit cover would be enough protection for the latex?
I understand that many people like the knit case because it is closer to the feel of the latex?
I would think the quilted Case would be more protective and provide more form on the made up bed when the sheets and blankets are tucked in . Correct me if I am wrong ?
At least I will decide on the cores this week LOL
Hi Turtlebed,
Both protect the latex to different degrees from oxidation (see the post I linked earlier here for good examples).
Both would generally provide “enough” protection for the latex. The different degrees of protection would just be one of the tradeoffs for each type of cover but in most cases either one would make a suitable choice and would be based on each person’s preferences.
In other words … I don’t think that the “protection” of the latex would be as significant a part of the choice between them as the differences in “feel” and temperature regulation between each type of cover.
Phoenix
The reason I have trouble deciding between quilted and Knit case covers is that when I saw the knit cover from Foam Order it was quite flimsy . Now that I have other resources for Knit covers that appear to be more substantial I feel more confident in considering a Knit cover . Again most appreciative of your help
Hi Phoenix: I went back to the foam order store and spent time lying on the 3" Firm Dunlop with 3" Soft Dunlop on top… After lying on this combination, I found that the mattress made up of these 2 layers set on the floor was too hard . I think the Soft layer was compressing and started to feel the firm layer?? I started thinking , I might need a layer of medium on top of the firm and a 2" topper of Soft Talalay Latex. Foam Order only sells Dunlop Latex . Does this make any sense ?
Hi Turtlebed,
Yes this makes sense. Thinner mattresses become firmer faster as you sink into them (see post #14 here about the effect of thickness) and many people find that prefer or do better with an extra 2" or 3" of latex in terms of PPP … particularly if they sleep on their side.
The choice between Dunlop and Talalay in the top layer (or any layer of the mattress) would be a preference choice and would depend on the firmness and “feel” that you prefer (see post #7 here for more about the differences between the “feel” of Dunlop and Talalay). Both are good quality materials.
Phoenix
Hi Pheonix: I will go back to the store in the next days and put the 3 toppers on the floor: 3"Firm/Medium and 2" Soft Dulop on Top which are covered in the knit case . I will get back to you with my thoughts . If I decide to go with a 2" Talalay Topper instead of Dunlop ,which resource has the best quality non blended Talalay at a good value ?
Hi Turtlebed,
The component post here includes the better sources for Talalay toppers and layers that I’m aware of.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix: I went back to the foam order store and tried : 3" Firm Latex /3" medium Latex / 2" soft Latex in a knit case . The combination felt pretty good. I also tried , 3" Firm/ 3"medium and that felt ok. My thoughts right now is to consider starting with 3" Firm/3" medium see how that goes and add the 2" soft if needed ? Does this make any sense? I do not know if it is psychological but when Latex cores are put in a zippered cotton/wool quilted case the bed feels more comfortable ? The FoamOrder Store seems to be the best value ?? However, there is no way to test separate 3" cores in a zippered wool case at Foam order
Hi Turtlebed,
That makes sense to me if you aren’t certain about adding the 2" layer initially and would give you a chance to try a firmer mattress before deciding on the type, thickness, and firmness of the comfort layers that you think would work best based on your actual sleeping experience. Once you have decided on the layers then you can buy a cover in the appropriate thickness or you could order the two layers with a cover and then add a topper if you need to.
Yes … the type of cover you use can have a significant effect on the feel and performance of a mattress.
This would depend on who you are comparing them to (either locally or online), how the prices compare, the options they have available, and on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you including the return or exchange policies, and the type of help and guidance they provide you. If they are the best match for all your criteria (including prices and any return or exchange options) then for you they would be the best “value”.
Phoenix
Pheonix; I am very appreciative of you taking the time to help guide me in a mattress decision . I think starting with two layers makes sense , 3" Firm/3" Medium. at the Foam order store. At the Foam Orrder Store I also tried a 3" soft topper and felt I was sinkinking, losing support and felt the 2" topper felt better , which would give me an 8" base mattress. Finding an organic quilted wool cover that measures 8" deep inside the cover might be difficult ?
I like that foam order puts their latex cores in a cotton zippered case then a knit case on top of the cotton case . Which probably gives the latex better protection? or does not want the latex exposed for easy viewing?
The foam order store has pros and cons: They mainly focus on selling the Natural Sense pre-set-up beds on their sales floor, which are 6" slabs with a topper . There is no bed on the floor with individual 3" componets in a quited cotton/wool case .The staff is not that familiar with latex components and comparisons from other manufacturers . I have been tests the foam source toppers , and pretty much on my own with little guidenance , They list their ILD#'s ,no sales pressure.
The company seems to be phasing out their old website foamorder.com and starting a new website mattressshop.com with a different price structure ? Which makes me wonder if they are trying to clear out old latex inventory?
An answer I cannot get is how long the latex has been sitting on the shelves that I would purchase . I asked about the color of the latex and was told that sometimes it might be pink due to utra-violet light hitting the latex? Did not know if I should have cause to worry . ?
Foam order delivery charges are high compared to the competition . If a switch is needed it would be $170 compared with a competetor $60
Foam Order is local and will deliver the bed/set up , might not be free now since eliminating a layer?
One thing I do not like about the store that it is not clean , the topppers are not keptt clean ,probably due to the fact the factory is part of the store and air feels dusty. Which I think psychologically affects the rating of the mattress comfort experience . At a competetor when lying on a mattress one gets a closer environment to the home in testing the mattress
Last night I came accross a natural Latex called Mountain Top Foam ? that Nest Bedding sells. It claims it is the only USA manufactured latex … Label stating not Talalay or Dunlop but a special process foam ? Nest bedding will except No returns on Mountain Top Foam , which lost my confidence in considering it .
I am so tired of the mattress hunt , feel like just going in a ordering an expensive pre made up bed, but with all the effort and work I put in , probably should get the best qquality and value ?
Thanks for listening …
Hi Turtlebed,
You can see my thoughts about individually encased layers in post #2 here.
I believe you probably mean http://www.organicmattressshop.com/ which is their site for the mattresses they make that are sold through other retailers but doesn’t include all the information or products that are included in their main site.
I don’t think this is something I would worry about with any reputable manufacturer if the latex hasn’t been sitting in direct sunlight and was only being stored in an appropriate environment prior to it being sold or used in a mattress.
Mattress factories where foam is cut are dusty places and would certainly not be as “clean” as a typical mattress showroom and this would be fairly normal as well.
You can see some comments about Mountaintop Foam in post #6 here and in post #2 here and there is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here. It is also available at Spindle Mattress which is one of the members here who sells 100% natural latex made by Mountaintop foam at very good prices and has a layer exchange policy. Bedinabox also uses it in their latex mattress here as well. NOTE ADDED: Nest Bedding is also now a member of this site
A DIY mattress can certainly be a challenging and frustrating project (see the comments in option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to) but it can also be rewarding. The best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen). It’s one of those things that some people are very happy to take on and others may choose to avoid the time, complexity, research, and frustration that can be part of the DIY process.
Like everything else the “value” of a mattress purchase depends on all the criteria and parts of “value” that are unique to each person.
Phoenix
From reading the posts you recommended it seems that wrapping the latex cores first in a cotton zippered case then placing them in a quilted cotton/wool encasement makes little difference in comfort and protection of the latex? I would think there is hardly a reason to remove the cores from the case ?? TheNaturalMattressStore keeps their cores exposed. FoamOrder first puts the cores in the cotton mattress zip cover then them in a stretch knit case . I got the feeling they were double cased to hide imperfections ?
Foam order cuts their cores 53"X74.5 "
NM Store cuts their cores 54"X 75 " ( Required to buy cores with their case )
The challenge to find a quilted case that has a tight fit ?
Foam order cores are approximate sizes , 2.8"
Foam orders quilted/wool case @ $650 does not seem to have the quality of the natural mattress store quilted woo/cotton case
Hesitant to order cores online , if returns are needed sounds like an ordeal to pack up the mattress plus shipping costs ?
Again Overwhelmed: Will take a few days off from mattress insanity and try to start with a fresh positive outlook.
Most appreciative of you hanging in there with me …