Hi Phoenix: I went back to the foam order store and tried : 3" Firm Latex /3" medium Latex / 2" soft Latex in a knit case . The combination felt pretty good. I also tried , 3" Firm/ 3"medium and that felt ok. My thoughts right now is to consider starting with 3" Firm/3" medium see how that goes and add the 2" soft if needed ? Does this make any sense? I do not know if it is psychological but when Latex cores are put in a zippered cotton/wool quilted case the bed feels more comfortable ? The FoamOrder Store seems to be the best value ?? However, there is no way to test separate 3" cores in a zippered wool case at Foam order
Hi Turtlebed,
That makes sense to me if you aren’t certain about adding the 2" layer initially and would give you a chance to try a firmer mattress before deciding on the type, thickness, and firmness of the comfort layers that you think would work best based on your actual sleeping experience. Once you have decided on the layers then you can buy a cover in the appropriate thickness or you could order the two layers with a cover and then add a topper if you need to.
Yes … the type of cover you use can have a significant effect on the feel and performance of a mattress.
This would depend on who you are comparing them to (either locally or online), how the prices compare, the options they have available, and on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you including the return or exchange policies, and the type of help and guidance they provide you. If they are the best match for all your criteria (including prices and any return or exchange options) then for you they would be the best “value”.
Phoenix
Pheonix; I am very appreciative of you taking the time to help guide me in a mattress decision . I think starting with two layers makes sense , 3" Firm/3" Medium. at the Foam order store. At the Foam Orrder Store I also tried a 3" soft topper and felt I was sinkinking, losing support and felt the 2" topper felt better , which would give me an 8" base mattress. Finding an organic quilted wool cover that measures 8" deep inside the cover might be difficult ?
I like that foam order puts their latex cores in a cotton zippered case then a knit case on top of the cotton case . Which probably gives the latex better protection? or does not want the latex exposed for easy viewing?
The foam order store has pros and cons: They mainly focus on selling the Natural Sense pre-set-up beds on their sales floor, which are 6" slabs with a topper . There is no bed on the floor with individual 3" componets in a quited cotton/wool case .The staff is not that familiar with latex components and comparisons from other manufacturers . I have been tests the foam source toppers , and pretty much on my own with little guidenance , They list their ILD#'s ,no sales pressure.
The company seems to be phasing out their old website foamorder.com and starting a new website mattressshop.com with a different price structure ? Which makes me wonder if they are trying to clear out old latex inventory?
An answer I cannot get is how long the latex has been sitting on the shelves that I would purchase . I asked about the color of the latex and was told that sometimes it might be pink due to utra-violet light hitting the latex? Did not know if I should have cause to worry . ?
Foam order delivery charges are high compared to the competition . If a switch is needed it would be $170 compared with a competetor $60
Foam Order is local and will deliver the bed/set up , might not be free now since eliminating a layer?
One thing I do not like about the store that it is not clean , the topppers are not keptt clean ,probably due to the fact the factory is part of the store and air feels dusty. Which I think psychologically affects the rating of the mattress comfort experience . At a competetor when lying on a mattress one gets a closer environment to the home in testing the mattress
Last night I came accross a natural Latex called Mountain Top Foam ? that Nest Bedding sells. It claims it is the only USA manufactured latex … Label stating not Talalay or Dunlop but a special process foam ? Nest bedding will except No returns on Mountain Top Foam , which lost my confidence in considering it .
I am so tired of the mattress hunt , feel like just going in a ordering an expensive pre made up bed, but with all the effort and work I put in , probably should get the best qquality and value ?
Thanks for listening …
Hi Turtlebed,
You can see my thoughts about individually encased layers in post #2 here.
I believe you probably mean http://www.organicmattressshop.com/ which is their site for the mattresses they make that are sold through other retailers but doesn’t include all the information or products that are included in their main site.
I don’t think this is something I would worry about with any reputable manufacturer if the latex hasn’t been sitting in direct sunlight and was only being stored in an appropriate environment prior to it being sold or used in a mattress.
Mattress factories where foam is cut are dusty places and would certainly not be as “clean” as a typical mattress showroom and this would be fairly normal as well.
You can see some comments about Mountaintop Foam in post #6 here and in post #2 here and there is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here. It is also available at Spindle Mattress which is one of the members here who sells 100% natural latex made by Mountaintop foam at very good prices and has a layer exchange policy. Bedinabox also uses it in their latex mattress here as well. NOTE ADDED: Nest Bedding is also now a member of this site
A DIY mattress can certainly be a challenging and frustrating project (see the comments in option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to) but it can also be rewarding. The best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen). It’s one of those things that some people are very happy to take on and others may choose to avoid the time, complexity, research, and frustration that can be part of the DIY process.
Like everything else the “value” of a mattress purchase depends on all the criteria and parts of “value” that are unique to each person.
Phoenix
From reading the posts you recommended it seems that wrapping the latex cores first in a cotton zippered case then placing them in a quilted cotton/wool encasement makes little difference in comfort and protection of the latex? I would think there is hardly a reason to remove the cores from the case ?? TheNaturalMattressStore keeps their cores exposed. FoamOrder first puts the cores in the cotton mattress zip cover then them in a stretch knit case . I got the feeling they were double cased to hide imperfections ?
Foam order cuts their cores 53"X74.5 "
NM Store cuts their cores 54"X 75 " ( Required to buy cores with their case )
The challenge to find a quilted case that has a tight fit ?
Foam order cores are approximate sizes , 2.8"
Foam orders quilted/wool case @ $650 does not seem to have the quality of the natural mattress store quilted woo/cotton case
Hesitant to order cores online , if returns are needed sounds like an ordeal to pack up the mattress plus shipping costs ?
Again Overwhelmed: Will take a few days off from mattress insanity and try to start with a fresh positive outlook.
Most appreciative of you hanging in there with me …
Hi Turtlebed,
Most consumers don’t realize that like any natural material natural latex will have some imperfections, tears, and discoloration and when they first see a latex layer they often think that something is wrong with it or that it’s been used so as I mentioned in the post I linked in the previous reply … encasing the latex in a thin cover would certainly reduce customer complaints from consumers that don’t realize what natural latex looks like and this can be one of the reasons that it’s used.
There are also many consumers that buy a component latex mattress and need to rearrange or exchange the layers until they have the design that works best for them so some people end up handling the latex a fair bit at first. Latex can tear very easily if you tug or pull on it.
Most component zip covers fit quite tightly and they “squish” the latex when they are zipped up. Many people that are assembling a component latex mattress for the first time are convinced that the layers won’t fit into the cover before they zip it up so a small variance isn’t likely to make a difference but you can always check with the manufacturer of a cover you are considering to make sure that it would be fine.
It’s actually fairly simple. You can see some instructions here for compressing your own layers if the size of the layer you have doesn’t fold up and fit into a box that’s small enough to ship by courier.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix : Well I took a time out from mattress shopping to clear my head . earlier this week I went back to the foam order store .
I tried out . the following combinations in 100% all Natural Dunlop Latex :
A- X-Firm bottom medium , 2" soft= 8""
B- Firm bottom medium 2" soft= 8"
C- X Firm Medium= 6"
D- Firm Medium= ^6"
X-Firm, Med, Soft felt good ,but not sure might be too soft??
Firm, Med, Soft Not good felt too soft not sure if supportive enough not willing to risk it
X-Firm with Medium After lying on it a while felt it might be to firm ?
Firm with Medium felt OK
Where I am Now:
Considering :
Firm with Medium … Felt OK , if I need a little extra cushion for side sleeping , could add 1" Talalay ???
My concern I realize I can make a Firm Mattress softer but not the other way around. ?
Would I be better off if I do X-Firm with Medium and add a Talalay Topper either in side the case or Top ? in order to get a firmer base?
Can’t Decide if I should start with X-Firm or Firm as a base?
Cover:
What I am thinking right now is to have the 2 cores of latex each put separately in two FoamOrder Inner organic cotton Muslin Cases
Sleep on the 6" combination , decide if I need to add a Talalay core of Latex then order a zippered quilted Case in the appropriate height , (probably = 7-8" high.) and put all the latex cores with the inner cases in the zippered case ???
Just do not know if I should start with extra firm or Firm as the support base ?
Thanks for listening, Mattress Therapist
Appreciate whatever guidance you can give me from your experience . Realize , you can’t feel what I do .
Best Regards
Hi Turtlebed,
When it comes to questions about PPP … there really aren’t any “theoretical” suggestions about layering that I can give you that could be more useful than your own careful and objective testing on each combination.
If your testing is a good approximation of your own sleeping experience then based on your feedback it seems to me like option A was the best “match” for you and it would certainly be “in the range” that would be suitable for your body type and sleeping positions “on average”. Some people may even consider it to be too firm … especially with Dunlop latex … but each person can be very different in their specific needs and preferences. This combination would also give you the option to put the 2" soft layer under the 3" medium layer which would give you a firmer sleeping surface (but softer than option D).
If you were to choose a different combination such as the option D you were considering then you would be introducing more uncertainty and risk by buying a mattress and then adding a topper where you can’t test the combination in person and I wouldn’t normally suggest buying a mattress with the intention of adding a topper afterwards (see post #2 here). If you do decide to go in this direction anyway then I would sleep on the mattress first and then use the information in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to as a reference point to choose a topper that has the best chance of success but making a “blind purchase” is always more risky than buying something that you have tested in person.
Phoenix
Phoenix: Most appreciative of your for your guidance . My other concern is When I was in the store another salesman told me that the cores i receive might not feel the same as the topper cores in the store because the store only guarantees a range in ild #'s and not a specific ILD therefore will not feel the same.? I asked who was the manufacturer of the latex , but could not get a specific answer from the foam order store. Do you know who manufactures the Dunlop latex for foam order ? I also found in small print in their website that the price quotes are for latex that might have seems? In the store the salesman said , no seams?? Can I trust that the latex will have No seams?
Putting a mattress together with Foam Order is less expensive than The Natural Mattress Store for similar configurations and size of 100% natural Latex. just hope that foam order can be trusted ?? I get slightly different information every time I go to the store??
AS far whether to do a 6" mattress or ann 8 " Mattress . I think I will do 6" Firm Medium and possibly add 1" soft if needed? and can always trade the firm for X-firm and add the 2" soft to get option A
But if the ILD is just a range and know who manufactures the latex with foam order I do not know what I shall receive and it will be a blind purchase ??
I am headed to just sleeping on the floor , lol
Hi Turtlebed,
Yes … there are no exact ILD in any latex but it’s “normal” for Dunlop latex to have a wider range (see post #6 here).
Many manufacturers prefer to keep their suppliers proprietary for competitive reasons but all that’s really important is to know the type and blend of the latex. In their case they are 100% natural Dunlop which is a high quality material. I don’t know their specific source but I would guess that it’s one of the Dunlop latex manufacturers in Sri Lanka (Arpico or Latex Green) but knowing this wouldn’t make any significant difference.
I would trust what they tell you since they would also be the source of any information that I would be able to provide you but with Dunlop there are mold sizes for each mattress size so it’s not likely that they would have glue seams which are more common with Talalay (although you don’t feel them).
In my conversations with them they have always provided me with accurate information and I would certainly consider them to be a reliable and trustworthy business and supplier.
If it was me I would use the suggestions in my reply to your other post here.
This can be part of the “trial and error” and “learning curve” and the uncertainty involved in a DIY construction (see option 3 here that I linked in an earlier reply) and is just a “normal” part of the process. At least you are considering high quality materials from a reputable supplier that isn’t trying to give you misleading information just for the sake of making a sale. ILD’s don’t need to be “exact” to be a good match for you and most people can’t feel the difference between layers that are only a few ILD apart and if you do go with the initial 2 layers then you can use your actual sleeping experience to decide on any additional layers that you may need.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix: Want to make sure we are both on the same page:
Option A : Foam Order 100% Latex 3" X-Firm base with 3" Medium and 2" Soft Latex. (Flexibility to put the soft layer under med layer) .
The reasoning to start with 3" Firm Base with 3" med on top was to see if that was all I needed and add 1 " foam order dunlop 8 if need a bit cushion. Firm Med felt OK . If I went this route I have the option to exchange the firm core in the store at No charge . If I add 1" soft to the Med Firm I can and it does not work out . I can return the 1" core for a refund or exchange and get the 2" core for option A . I would only have to pay the difference in cost for the firmness upgrade
I am planning the cores wrapped with the inner cases in a sleepez organic cotton/wool quilted zippered cover once the final height is decided. Sleepez has the best price for the Organic mattress case with the same amount of compacted wool… The case is similar if not the same as the foam order case from the description and photos
If you remember I am trying to keep the mattress low really do not want to go over 8" with case and pad. 7" would be ideal
Does this seem rational ??
One more question: I was reading in one of your threads about certified Organic Latex . Is Certified Organic Latex Available in 3" thick cores? I checked out the sites in the thread but did not see 3" cores of Organic Latex available ? Is there a source to get 3" cores of Organic latex??
Hi Turtlebed,
My comments and reasoning was based on your feedback about each combination and on the lower risk involved with purchasing a mattress that you have confirmed with your own personal testing is a good match for you in terms of PPP vs taking the chance of choosing a mattress that seems to be a less suitable choice and relying on the additional uncertainty and risk of buying a topper where you can’t test the combination in person. Post #13 here has more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase and PPP would always be my first priority. Of course you may still be comfortable with a higher risk approach but this is something you would need to decide.
Both of them are good quality choices and have no weak links in the materials which is all I can really speak to. Again … only you can decide which one would be the best match for you in terms of PPP and all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you and where in the range of risk you are most comfortable.
Yes it is available.
Arizona Premium may have some 3" organic Dunlop layers (you can call and ask)
Latextoppers carries them
Pure Green Natural Latex Mattress Topper | SleepOnLatex.com may also carry them (I’m not sure if their Dunlop is organic or 100% natural so you would need to ask)
Organicandmore carries some as well but I believe they only have 2".
Phoenix
It was my preference to get a certified organic latex mattress, but the choices had previously found were too expensive .
Thanks for the certified organic latex mattress options . i emailed Ken at Arizona Mattress , he only has 6 " cores of certified Organic latex and gave me the specific ILD#'s . Ken is most helpful , he even gave me information I the latex I was looking at .Ken is a great guy. Waiting for him to get back to me on information about his 2" Certified Organic Topper .
Sleeping Organic carries the Certified Organic Latex as well and offers the 3" cores which includes the cover a good price ( $1495, includes organic quilted cover) which is only few hundred $ more than foam order. Waiting to hear back from them about their ILD#'s in order for me to compare what I been testing ( realize not an exact comparison)
WHERE AM I NOW :
Would prefer to do business with ken , but he only offers 6" cores of certified latex… Hopefully the 2" topper is available for purchase?
If sleeping organic provides me with the ILD#'s I might do the 7" sprout Model Certified Organic .
Otherwise, I am thinking of purchasing the Firm and Medium Cores from Foam Order, sleep on it for a bit , and decide whether a 2 " Soft topper is needed? Foam order is local and would make it easier and less costly if I wanted to trade for an X-Firm base . If a topper is needed I could go with the certified organic soft topper from Ken at Arizona mattress , which has a slightly higher ILD . The Foam order topper felt slightly too soft.
I feel I over researched latex mattresses and stuck in a final decision. Thanks for listening
Hi Turtlebed,
Ken is certainly an expert in organic latex and as you probably know from your reading here I think very highly of him and Arizona Premium. I hope that they have the layers you are looking for.
Just to add one other option to the mix … Scott at Foam Sweet Foam also makes component latex mattresses that use GOLS certified organic latex (or 100% natural Talalay) in a wide range of firmness levels and may also be worth talking to. (NOTE: They are now a member of this site).
You are certainly looking at some great options and I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding.
Phoenix
I will check out foam sweet foam and let you know where I am at …
Hi Pheonix: Update . I am considering sleepingorganic.com. I originally wanted a mattress that was more organic , but price was a factor and did not reallize at the time that the latex at sleeping organic was certied organic . Sleeping Organic has both Latex Green and Coco Latex at a good price . Coco Latex makes 3" certified latex cores in individual molds therefore the 3" cores would not be cut from a thicker 6" core Question: Is there an advantage in having individual molded cores vs a #’ core cut in half? Sleeping Organic will check with latex green about their cores ? I do not think latex green 3" cores are in 3" molds?? Sleeping Organic has more firmness levels Firm core of 34-38, med firm 28-33 which is a lower ILD 23-27 which is good as compared to the natural sense ILD# 26-30? If I go with Sleeping Organic will do Firm/Med . Hopefully I will order a bed tomorrow LOL
Hi Turtlebed,
The only real advantage would be more consistency in the firmness of the material because the 3" layers that were made in a 3" mold would be more consistent in firmness than 3" layers that came from the top or bottom of a 6" mold which can have slight differences in firmness.
I have also had some feedback from one manufacturer that I know that tested the Dunlop from the 3" molds and told me that he didn’t think that they had the same performance and resilience as the 3" layers that came from the 6" molds and decided to stay with 3" layers that came from 6" molds in spite of the challenge of hand sorting the firmness of each layer because of the differences in firmness from top to bottom but this was the only direct comparison I have had from a manufacturer that has tested both.
In the end it will really come down to which one is the best match for you in terms of PPP.
As far as I’m aware Latex Green doesn’t have any 3" molds.
Dunlop latex is more difficult to compare in terms of ILD comparisons because the ILD is more variable and the same rated firmness can have a wider range than Talalay but if two layers made by two different manufacturers are both 100% natural Dunlop then they would be closely comparable in terms of quality and if they are the same density then they would be reasonably similar in terms of firmness as well.
Phoenix
I will chat with brandon at sleeping organic. I am thinking of going with latex green since there is a wider range of ILD #'s and would allow me to get a medium core that is a bit softer than the medium core from Apico at natural sense . The Coco latex cores sound a bit firmer ?
Hi Phoenix: I ordered the mattress from sleepingOrganic .com . 3" Firm bottom ( 34-38 ILD) 3" Medium Top (23-27ILD) Latex Green Certified Organic Mattress. Organic Cotton/ Organic Wool Case $1419 plus Free Organic Sheets . My only doubt is whether I should of gone 9" ???
Hi Turtlebed,
Congratulations on your new mattress 
The only way to know this is by sleeping on it.
I think you certainly made a high quality/value choice and I’m looking forward to your feedback when you’ve received it and have had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.
Phoenix