Hi Gail_B,
I’m jumping into this post because of a very similar back pain pattern as Rob listed. I’m 6ft1" tall and 140 lbs. Side sleeper. Shoulders slightly wider than hips.
I have a 8" firm Talalay mattress. It was much too firm for my shoulders and hip pressure points. So I bought a 2" 19ILD Talalay topper. I found the topper extremely hot, terrible motion control when my partner moves around- but better for my shoulders and hip. However- I still have pain in my Quadratus lumborum and SI joints.
I think I may be bottoming out the topper because 2" doesn’t seem too thick.
Yes, it does look like you are in need of fine-tuning your existing build … from what you describe, you are quite right, you are going right through the 19 ILD Talalay topper and ‘bottoming out’ on the firm 8" Talalay below. This not only causes the shoulder and hip pressure points you are experiencing when sleeping on your side, but because you ‘sink into’ the top layer, you’ll trap more body heat and have some motion transfer issues.
In very general terms, the materials, layers, and components of a sleeping system that are closer to your skin will have a bigger effect on airflow, moisture transport, and temperature regulation than materials, layers, and components that are further away from your skin. Such as your case is … softer mattresses or foam toppers will tend to be more “insulating” and many people will tend to sleep warmer on the soft version than on the firmer versions of the same material. If you are interested, there is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system in post #2 here that can help you choose the types of materials and components that are most likely to keep you in a comfortable temperature range.
Talalay latex toppers and the same goes for Dunlop latex are the best of all foam materials for temperature regulation as both are open-cell and extremely breathable. These are good choices for someone who is temperature sensitive.
Again the 19 ILD soft Talalay may be partly responsible for the motion issues you are experiencing. While there are some people who do talk about a “jello” feeling with latex when they refer to motion transfer but this is more a result of certain constructions where a person sinks in too deeply into the mattress because of the way that latex (or any highly resilient and elastic material) returns the energy when they move. This also depends on your level of sensitivity to motion transfer. Memory foam with its “dead sand feeling” is the best at motion isolation. Latex, like memory foam, is very point elastic which means that it compresses at millions of specific points across the surface to take on the shape of the body profile with much less effect on the area around the point of compression but it is also highly resilient which means it absorbs much less energy than memory foam (which has little to no resilience at all). If you throw a ball at memory foam attached to a wall it will just drop to the floor while if you throw a ball against a wall with latex it will bounce back.
If there is motion transfer in a latex mattress … then it is usually coming from what is either under or over the latex. The first place I would look at is what is under it.
What the mattress is sitting on from the “floor” upwards? A latex mattress needs a firm non-flexing and solid foundation.
Putting the mattress directly on the floor will help confirm where the motion transference is coming from. I am guessing there is some “rocking” or movement coming from what the mattress is sitting on.
Releasing some of the tension from the cover could very well solve the motion transfer issue so you may want to check on that as well.
I’m considering returning the 2" 19ILD topper and trying a 3" medium Talalay topper. However- I’m concerned that my spine won’t like it.
My question is- is getting a 3" medium firm Talalay topper for my 8" firm Talalay mattress a good idea? I’ve also read about zoned Talalay mattresses toppers in 3" wherein the hip region would be medium firm and the shoulder region would be 19ILD.
I only have one shot left to get my mattress right due to where I live and financial constraints.
Thanks for providing your stats! – even though you have a low BMI, you’ll still sink right through the 2" soft 19 ILD with your bonny parts (shoulder and hips) bottoming out into a firmer latex comfort layer. As I mentioned you are heading in a good direction by thinking to replace the 2" soft topper with one that is thicker and firmer.
Is your 8" firm Talalay encased? And if you can open the cover is it made of two separate layers or 2 laminated layers. (Talalay Latex is produced in 6" slabs) If you can access the layers and they are separate then you’d have more options for fine-tuning.
At your weight, you can do well even on a 7" thick mattress, but one thing to remember is that thickness and softness are interdependent. A thicker mattress of similar materials and layer thickness proportions will act softer for most people. The more you increase the height the firmer the replacement layer should be to get a similar support/comfort balance. You clearly need to be more on the mattress and need more secondary support for the recessed parts of your body so increasing both the firmness and thickness of the topper might be just what you need.
This said, only by checking this new layering for comfort/support balance you’ll find for sure if it’s matching your particular body type and stats. In theory, replacing the top layer with the 3" of medium Talalay can certainly fit the bill, It would keep you more on the mattress and mitigate the overheating issue. As your shoulders are “slightly wider than the hips” you may also do well with zoning. As you say that you have ‘one shot to get things right due to location and finance" I’d do a bit more leg work. The most certain way to know this is to find a way to sleep-test first your proposed 11" construction before you proceed with the topper exchange or before you purchase a new layer.
I’d consider getting in touch with one of our trusted members that specialize in zoning and adjusting a construction according to your body type and health needs. You can reach out to Bob Zukovski from Custom, Sleep Technology (CST). His company specializes in customizing mattresses and has a well-designed questionnaire to determine if you’d need any zoning. By utilizing the body measurements of each individual sleeper, CST determines the required ILD/IFD (softness) and foam densities of each layer and segment on each side of the mattress and/or mattress topper to minimize pressure points and place the spine in a natural and stress-free position. CST can also address specific physical issues that customer experience. You can also reach out to Flobeds and speak with Dave or Dewey as their Areas of Expertise are LATEX, ZONING & MATTRESS MATCHING and would be happy to assist you.
I’d try to take out any of the trial and error that comes with building a DIY and instead leverage the knowledge and expertise of those who spent decades designing beds and guide you according to your stats (height, BMI, sleeping position(s) and any underlying health issues) and your PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). Talalay latex has a very different feel from Dunlop latex; it’s ‘bouncier’ and a Dunlop latex topper of the same ILD may feel firmer than the Talalay.
As far as motion transfer for highly sensitive individuals there are some tried and tested solutions that you may want to consider. You didn’t mention your partner’s stats or bed size but putting more distance between the two of you (King vs Queen size) or splitting the layers for his and her side, or even considering 2 side-by-side frame beds can reduce the motion transfer.
You may also want to have a look at a zoned latex topper, such as This One – or a convoluted latex topper like This 2" topper from [Trusted member] FloBeds may further alleviate motion transfer issues, and a firmer even 2" topper will prevent you from ‘sinking in’ and will better support the recessed areas of your body to maintain a neutral/natural position of your spine without the fascia muscles having to tense and compensate for any sagging or spinal misalignment. If your SI Joint and Quadratus Lumborum pains disappear in the morning then the symptoms are most likely caused by spinal misalignment.)
I hope this gives you a bit more food for thought while you consider all your options. I’d be interested to learn of your progress.
Phoenix
