Picking a mattress and size.

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Second time I have been looking for a mattress on this site, and I love it here. First mattress was for a 2nd guest/office room. Now we are looking to replace the ~9 year old $600 Value City Queen mattress. The wife is in agreement for a new mattress. Ours looks worn with indentations in the top.

Wife:
She sleeps “hot” mostly in the summer and for some reason goes to bed wearing PJs and full comforter.
Light Sleeper
140lbs
5’5"
95% side sleeper

Me:
I can sleep warmer, but I am generally fine when I go to sleep, though I mostly use just the sheet and no PJs. In the winter I can sometimes get cold after a while and use the comforter.
Medium-Heavy Sleeper
175lbs
5’11"
70% side / 30% back sleeper

We keep the room in the upper 60’s in winter and lower 70’s in the summer.

Size:
I am fine with a Queen, though I thought about the king for the sole reason of putting more space between us, as she sleeps hot. Though a king would be 2x the price as it would require new bed, sheets, comforter, and etc. It is rare, but on occasions she has woken me up fore being to close to her and that she was warm. If we go with a queen, is there any reason we shouldn’t save $300 and keep the existing box spring/foundation?

Mattress Selection:
After my research last year, I am planning on going with James Town Mattress again. They even recommended this site. We went there this past Saturday and tried a few different mattresses. We didn’t get to test things as much as we would have liked as we kept having to chase after our toddler. At first I was planning on going with Majestic Dream as I heard from one source that a hybrid would sleep cooler, than a full Latex Mattress, though I found another source that a Latex could sleeper cooler than a coil mattress. Also that Natural Latex sleeps cooler than man made latex and memory foam was the warmest. We then tried the Heavenly Cloud and Nature’s Cloud and liked them both. Though understand they are pretty much the same mattress, though one is all natural with wool, while the other has poly on part of the bottom and has poly for the top. If we were to keep our existing foundation, it is only a $50 difference and I hear that Wool will sleep cooler than poly. I liked how both have zipper tops.

Money isn’t the issue here and at this price range $50 is less than the tax we will pay. Out of the two, I am curious which will hold up longer and which one will sleep cooler. Am I right that the Nature’s Cloud is best choice?

We might get a sitter to really try the mattress out.

Edit: I see another Nature’s Cloud custom mattress on their site, I am a bit confused as it is $800 cheaper than the mattress we looked at in the store. It looks like you can customize it more and it comes with the same exact zipper topper/quilt that the Nature Cloud in the store had.

Edit2: I just spoke to Jim from James town and he said the custom ones are slightly cheaper as they ship them out and don’t require the brick and mortar overhead. He also said that the custom one that is most similar to the EuroTop was the 13" mattress and not the 10". He said it has 4 layers of latex, each 3" thick. The other one has only 3 layers of 3" thick latex. The 4 layer Custom Nature’s Cloud is 1" more Latex and it cost $200 less than the in store NC EuroTop. I did see they didn’t have the exact same density selection in the custom as they listed in the NC EuroTop. I guess as they have the selection of 2-4 layers of 3" latex in their custom, is there really advantage of 3 vs 4, if the 4th layer is the same density as the 3rd?

Edit3: (All Nature’s Cloud)
Custom1 - 3 layer: 10" thick - $1,899
13-15 3"
16-19 3"
22-25 3"

Custom2 - 4 layer: 13" thick - $2,499
13-15 3"
16-19 3"
22-25 3"
30-33 3"

EuroTop - 3 layer: 11" thick - $2,699
14-16 2"
19-21 3"
24-26 6"

2

Hi hostage,

Welcome back!

I’m surprised your mattress lasted that long, as the typical fare offered at Value City uses lower quality materials. You certainly got your money’s worth out of that item!

A queen foundation from a typical mattress set bought at Value City would either be a semi-flex or a wood foundation, both of which I would recommend your change out after nine years.

They do offer mattresses with higher quality componentry and are a good resource for mattress advice.

Generally speaking, a mattress with an innerspring will move more air through it than one that doesn’t have the “hollow” area where the innerspring unit resides and more air can move between the springs than through a piece of foam. Regarding foams, Talalay latex will be the most breathable, followed by Dunlop latex, then polyfoam, then memory foam.

In very general terms … the materials, layers, and components of a sleeping system that are closer to your skin will have a bigger effect on airflow, moisture transport, and temperature regulation than materials, layers, and components that are further away from your skin and softer mattresses or foam toppers will tend to be more “insulating” and for some people can sleep warmer than firmer versions of the same material. It’s not really possible to quantify the sleeping temperature of a mattress for any particular person with any real accuracy because there are so many variables involved including the type of mattress protector and the sheets and bedding that you use (which in many cases can have just as significant an effect on sleeping temperature as the type of foam in a mattress) and on where you are in the “oven to iceberg” range and because there is no standardized testing for temperature regulation with different combinations of materials. If you are interested, there is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system in post #2 here that can help you choose the types of materials and components that are most likely to keep you in a comfortable temperature range.

With your edits I’m really not sure which mattresses you’re considering or what latex you’re looking at in each mattress. I’m assuming the latex used is Dunlop. They offer 100% NR or 100% SBR. While I can’t pick out a mattress for you, I can take a look at the materials being used in what you provided in your third edit.

Custom 1 would certainly be a very plush item, using a total of 6" in the upper layers of latex under 20 ILD, which is quite soft. The support core is medium firm.

Custom 3 goes just a bit firmer than custom 1 in the transition layer and the bottom support layer, and overall would have a bit more supportive feel than Custom 1, but still a quite plush product.

Custom 3 takes Custom 1 and adds a firmer base support layer, so you’ll have 3" more material to bend into as compared to Custom 1. It does allow a bit more for customization with the different layers, and you might notice a bit more gradual transition into the deeper support layers.

All three of these mattresses would be quite plush on top.

Adding more layers will certainly add more cushioning and comfort, with changes made to the upper layers being more noticeable than changes made to the deeper layers.

My best suggestion is to plan a return visit to Jamestown Mattress, sans your child, so that you may truly spend some time analyzing each item and comparing one model to another. There are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved in choosing a mattress for me to make specific suggestions based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or theory at a distance that can possible be more accurate than your own careful and objective testing (using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) which is always the most reliable way to predict which mattress will be the best match for you in terms of PPP (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

I’m looking forward to your comments after your second visit.

Phoenix

3

Thanks for the reply!

They only have the Nature’s Cloud Euro Top, Plush, and Firm in stock at their store, the other custom ones are truly custom, they will build it to your need, so you really can’t try it out at their show room. I guess I could have written my edits better, as well asked better questions.

The Latex they use is Dunlop.

  1. I read over a few or your posts and I am curious if 9" of latex would be fine for our needs and is 12" over doing it? I read that some thinner mattress can have issues for people who are heavier, though I am not too overweight. Is 6" base layer in the EuroTop over kill? I also read you want to have a good transition through the layers or someone might feel the difference in layers.

  2. As I am unable to test the custom ones and assuming/hoping they might feel similar. I recall reading some where you mentioned it is better to have a thinner layer for the upper layer. I am wondering with the slightly denser ILD, combined with the fact that the top layer is 2", I assume it would be cheaper to replace that layer, when/if it breaks down.

  3. I know latex will have less break down for the density, compared to other foam products and that the denser the latex the more resilient it will be. Is there any data that shows a relation to latex wear and ILD?

  4. While the “customs” have interchangeable layers for all, I think the Euro Top in the show room only has the 2 layers (5" total) of adjustable/removable latex. The 6" base is not adjustable in the EuroTop.

  5. Do you recommend a mattress protector that might be more breathable and trap less heat?

With the custom I can pick from a variety of densities. I am showing the 4 lowest density foams, they can get more dense than what I listed in the custom.

Custom1 - 3 layer: 10" thick - $1,899 (built to order, can’t test it out)
13-15 3"
16-19 3"
22-25 3"

Custom2 - 4 layer: 13" thick - $2,499 (built to order, can’t test it out)
13-15 3"
16-19 3"
22-25 3"
30-33 3"

EuroTop - 3 layer: 11" thick - $2,699 (in store)
14-16 2"
19-21 3"
24-26 6"

I will go to retest out Nature’s Cloud EuroTop during one of my lunch breaks. The wife wants a new mattress, but doesn’t want to take part in trying them out anymore. Though I am 95% sure I am going for a plush Nature’s Cloud. We found the NCET to be the best of our liking and it makes sense from the material inside of it.

4

Hi hostage,

Your questions are fine – no worries. :slight_smile:

There is no formula that can predict with any certainty what type of layering you may do best with that can possibly be more accurate than your own personal experience, and without this the next best way to decide on the design of a mattress is to use the “averages” and advice of a manufacturer for people of your weight range, body type, sleeping style, and personal preferences. These “averages” may vary on the specific designs and options that they have available, and in your case I would use your own testing on the three models available and then any comments you might have to the people at Jamestown about potential tweaks they might suggest in a custom product based upon your feedback. I wouldn’t consider the 12" Eurotop as overkill at all, and if you like a softer mattress I would potentially be more concerned with something that was too soft without adequate support.

It is a bit more common for the transition/upper layers of a mattress to be 2"-3", but certainly not always the case, and it’s not necessary for it to be that way. A 9" mattress using three 3" layers versus a solid 6" core with a 3" upper layer certainly does offer more options for customization. When you mention a denser ILD, I think you mean a higher ILD – a firmer foam? The uppermost layers within a mattress go through the most mechanical stress and break down the fastest, so if you were to replace a layer over time to wear, it most likely would be your uppermost layer of the mattress.

Durability depends upon many factors (oxidation, UV exposure, chemical exposure, mechanical shear forces, elongation, compression,…), but in general a higher ILD will be more durable than a lower ILD if tested going through the same amount of use and use patterns. Without going down the rabbit hole, that is the basic rule. And all latex in general is a very durable material.

Yes, it looks to be a solid 6" core in the specifications you provided and listed on their web site.

Yes, you would want to use something as breathable as possible, and you also may wish to consider a natural fiber protector as well. There’s more information about mattress protectors post #89 here, and here.

That’s too bad that your wife doesn’t want to assist you anymore, but maybe that will allow her to watch your child and then free you up to take more time testing out the mattresses at Jamestown. I would use their advice based upon your feedback after trying out their three products on the floor. One other thing you may wish to consider is using a plush topper, which I’m guessing Jamestown would have on hand, to do a little customization of your own on their showroom floor. For example, if you liked the plushness of the Eurotop but found that it wasn’t supportive enough, you could try their Firm model with a plush topper on it as an example of something with firmer deep support with extra softness on top. One of the key concerns I would have would be making sure you have adequate support in anything you choose.

Let me know how your testing goes.

Phoenix

5

Thanks again, I am going today at lunch to test out a couple different mattress at James town. I was looking on their site and the only difference between the EuroTop and the Plush is that the Plus removes the 3" 19-21 ILD layer and adds another inch to the top layer.

Euro Top
14-16 2"
19-21 3"
24-26 6"

Plush
14-16 3"
24-26 6"

Firm
24-26 3"
36-38 6"

For some reason the more soft, it feels more comfortable, but I guess you are right about the support question. I know my couch is softer and sometimes my back aches when I sleep on it, though it angles downward towards the back.

While we are not over weight, my wife does have hips and that makes me regret not rereading over the PPP section. I was so focused on durability, comfort, and hot sleeping that I completely forgot about that part. So I guess if her hips don’t sink in enough, that might cause misalignment of the spine?

After looking at James Town Mattress’s selection online, only the Nature’s Cloud has laytex only. The other ones have a mix of poly, memory foam, or coils. That would make it even harder to figure out what I want if I go custom.

Lastly any thought on building our own? I do see how you can buy layers of latex on Amazon, it seems all they are doing is putting different layer thickness of latex in a zipable bag that has a quilted layer on top?

I wonder why they just don’t have a bunch of twin size latex layers at their store so you can just try to build your own, like build a bear lol.

Edit:

So I went back to James Town and tried the Euro Top again and the tried the Plush version, as well as some others. I decided I want to go with the latex and wool combo for the durability, heat transfer, and flexibility of swapping out the layers for future/replacement. I noticed the ET seemed better for side and the plush felt slightly better for back.

I think I might forgo the mattress protector and just dry clean the quilt, if needed. As it can be completely removed to be cleaned and the fact that it will breath better.

I recall my wife joking that when she lays down her back doesn’t touch the bed and the fact she has larger hips make me favor the ET. Also they are willing to work with us in the first 30 days to help us find the right firmness. They even can put in two different XL twin layers to give the queen two different firmness sides. So I guess it might boil down to NC ET or NC Custom.

I am just worried about the PPP part as I couldn’t compare to my wife, though both mattresses felt fine other wise.

I am going to email Jim from Jamestown to inquire about the ILDs differing between the custom and the Eurotop. Seems odd they would differ.

6

Jim from Jamestown Mattress emailed me back.

My suspicion was correct and the ILDs listed on the site for the Natural custom are wrong. He said that the ones listed for custom are for the synthetic latex and that when you click natural, it should switch to the ILDs that match the ones in the Nature’s Cloud Eurotop.

Custom1 - $2499
14-16 3"
19-21 3"
24-26 3"
34-36 3"

Custom2: $1899
14-16 3"
19-21 3"
24-26 3"

EuroTop: $2699
14-16 2"
19-21 3"
24-26 6"

To be honest it seems like it is a better deal to get one of the customs. I just feel skeptical of the buying something so pricey, w/o having tested it first. The manufacture is about 2 hours away and he said I could check it out if I wanted to. I wonder if the extra inch of 14-16 of Custom would make us sink in too far. The local store didn’t have anyway of testing out different layers, etc.

7

Hi hostage,

Yes, you want to defer toward support, then find enough comfort on top to accommodate your sleeping style and preferences.

If a mattress is very firm it won’t allow her hips and shoulder to sink in enough, which can cause the spine to be improperly supported in the abdominal region, tilt the hips excessively and cause a bit of extra lower thoracic/upper lumbar lateral curvature, placing more pressure on the hips and shoulders. By contrast, if a mattress is too soft the entire thoracic/abdominal area will curve laterally excessively and the support will be inferior.

While knowing the specs that can affect the quality and durability of the layers and components in a mattress is always important, unless you have a great deal of knowledge and experience with different types of mattress materials and components and their specs and different layering combinations and mattress designs and how they combine together and can translate them into your own “real life” experience that can be unique to you (which would generally be a very small percentage of people), I would tend to avoid using complex specifications to try and predict how a mattress will feel or perform for you. Even the best mattress designers in the industry are often surprised at what a mattress they design “should have felt like” based on the specs when they design it and what it “actually feels like” when they test out their new design. The nice thing for you is that you have a selection of mattresses set up to try in person, and the availability of a knowledgeable component mattress builder on site to guide you based upon your reaction in the showroom. I would use them as a good reference and trust their experience and opinions.

Yes, that concept would be unique with a mattress store and actually makes more sense than you might think. But this isn’t the sole focus of Jamestown and requires a decent amount of dedicated space for the multiple possible configurations, so I would believe that they feel comfortable making recommendations based upon your response to the three mattress offerings on their floor, or a visit to their factory.

The queen would use two 30" x 80" pieces and a split configuration is quite common, and very useful when people have different somatotypes. You certainly could go with a bit more contouring in the upper layers for her side if she has that need.

IMO, a two-hour drive isn’t too far for something that has a direct impact upon your health and that you’ll use for years, and there’s nothing that can replace your own careful personal testing of an item. If you decide to not make the trip, at least you have Jamestown willing to assist you with layer customizing should things not turn out as you expected.

Phoenix