Plant based poly support core?

Ive just begun my search for a new mattress. Im coming from a 25 year old box spring so all the new mattress technologies can be overwhelming. I have ruled out memory foam/temperpedic beds. I have two mattresses that i have an eye on. I was interested in latex for a few reasons…pressure relieving, durability, more natural product. The only latex bed i ve come across locally to try was a brand called Nature’s Rest .However, the models that fit more in my price range ($1500max) are ones that use what they call a “plant based poly support core” with their 100% latex pro core topper . I found the model, the 3DZH Luxury Plush, to be quite comfortable and supportive. But i am having concerns about this plant based poly core…how is it going to perform? And am i paying for something that is very much inferior to a 100%latex mattress?

I have read through parts of the site and fortunately have come across a list of local mattress factory outlets including encin mattresses and wolsey beds in Massachusetts. I will say Im not that interested in creating my own mattress; i would rather find a well made one that fits in my preferences and budget. I plan to visit these locations and see what they have to offer. Being a combo back and side sleeper i find i need some soft give on the top layer but like feeling a nice support underneath as well. The Nature’s Rest i mentioned above gave me both with a nice sensr of being cradled which i havent found as much in other sets. I am 150- 165lbs so i dont think wear and tear from heaviness will be a big factor but i dont want to end up with a saggy mattres.

Although Latex is appealing, i do have some concerns on whether or not i would sleep hot on them, as ive heard mixed responses on this issue, but the other mattress i had my sights on previous to coming to this site was the Serta iseries Flattery Firm . Having concerns about whether or not i would be getting quality mattress for the price has led me to reconsider things and made me think to take a look at other boxsprings at one of these local mattress direct outlets.

If you have any particular knowledge on the “plant based polycore” or on the Nature’s Rest brand in general, id appreciate your feedback. Any advice or feedback in general would be great! Thanks!

Hi brc722,

You can read more about so called “plant based” polyfoam in post #2 here. It’s just regular polyfoam which has replaced a small percentage of one of the chemicals used to make it with a plant oil based derivative and would be comparable to regular polyfoam of the same density in terms of its durability.

You can read more about a latex/polyfoam hybrid (which has a latex comfort layer over a polyfoam support core) vs an all latex mattress in post #2 here.

Latex is the most breathable of all the foam materials (polyfoam, memory foam, latex foam) so in general there would be less issues with temperature regulation with latex comfort layers than other types of foam comfort layers (regardless of the type of support core in the mattress). There are also other factors that can have a significant effect on temperature regulation as well and there is more about these in post #2 here.

Hopefully you’ve also had the chance to read the tutorial post (the link is in the top right corner of the page) which has all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choices … and know how to avoid the worst ones.

Phoenix

Thank you very much for your feedback! So, if i understand what i read correctly, a latex/polyfoam hybrid is not necessarily a poor quality combination but does not compare with a full latex model. What would constitute a good quality polyfoam density as the support core? I guess i will have to see what price range local latex queen models fall into and do some comparisons.

Also, mattresses that incorporate memory foam in the comfort layers even with supposed cooling gel technology, very well could cause one to sleep hot despite it being a innerspring…is this correct line of thinking? Therefore, in comparison the latex/polycore could indeed be better at temp regulation bc latex is the upper comfort layers?

Would a latex /Innerpring formation be something only found at through one of these local direct manufacturers? Ie.custom made? I have not come across this particular combo.

Again, thanks for providing such a helpful resource for those of us trying to steer our way through the mattress buying labrynth! :blink:

Hi brc722,

Yes … that’s basically correct. The support layers of a mattress aren’t typically the weak link of a mattress in terms of durability but they are an important part of the response and performance of the mattress. Of course higher weights will compress a mattress more deeply so the higher quality layers need to be thicker or deeper in the mattress than they would if someone was lighter. For example a 1.5 lb polyfoam base may be fine with 3" of latex for normal weights but if they were compressing the support core more because they were heavier then it would be a good idea to either use a higher density more durable support core or thicker layers of latex above it … or both.

The density guidelines I would suggest using are in several places in the tutorial post including here and here and here as well as the mattress support cores - polyurethane and the mattress comfort layers - polyurethane sections of the main menu.

The short version is I would use 1.8 lb polyoam as a good basic guideline or 1.5 lb in a lower budget mattress with more average weights or in a mattress where the comfort layers were thicker and the support layers weren’t compressed as much.

Depending on the other factors that can affect temperature regulation it’s certainly possible yes. Even a “semi breathable” membrane type mattress protector over a mattress with a thick/soft comfort layer that would otherwise be fine in terms of temperature regulation can result in temperature issues for some people because of the reduced airflow. In some cases just having polyester sheets can put someone over the edge or their temperature comfort zone.

There is also much more about the different types of gel materials in post #2 here and the posts it links to. There is a great deal of misinformation about gel in the industry’s marketing stories although it does have some effect on temperature … at least temporarily … and it can also affect the feel and performance and support characteristics of memory foam.

Again … depending on the other factors involved … yes. Overall latex is the most breathable of all the different types of foam materials.

They are not “common” but they are also fairly widely available across the country although the larger manufacturers tend to use latex in combination with other less costly foam materials. Even the Serta iSeries innerspring mattresses have some models that use latex in the comfort layers although they are mixed in with other types of foam. They don’t need to be “custom built” but they are more commonly found at small or mid size manufacturers or specialty sleep shops.

I’m glad the site has been helpful :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Hi, I finally had the chance to visit one of the local mattress manufacturers recommended through this site (worleybeds) and was able to try a latex innerspring mattress that they created. I found it to be pretty comfortable and is a very strong contender. They did have 100% latex beds made from blended Talaylay but those were all way above $2000 which is more than I can spend. As for feel, I preferred the softest of the three firmness levels of latex. Unfortunately, I did not get the IDL on those for me to know the differences. I wil say the guy showing me the beds was very knowledgeable and informative, and either had a slow work day or was very passionate about latex, had a lot to say and chat about in general, but looking back, I do wish that I had taken more time to just take in the feel of the bed, instead of focusing too much on the information. I was very happy to have the info of course and feel much more informed about latex overall. I am still left with some uncertainties and questions however, and was hoping to give you a run down of what I found and see what you think.

The layers of the mattress were the following:

4" blended talaylay gel latex foam, IDL 15
2" 1.8lb corrugated HD polyfoam
6" pocketed coil innerspring

The outer layer being a light flexible polyester covering directly over the latex.

Spec-wise , this seems like a well constructed formulation to me. What do you think? THe only concern I now have is about their being gel in the latex. In reading through some more of your site, I did come across info saying that the addition of certain materials like gels can affect the foam durability. I did inquire why there was gel added to the latex since latex is the most breathable of foams, and he told me it was related to the market trend and what consumers are now on the look out for, so its really not necessary but there because of that. Do you think the addition of the gel will compromise the latex by much enough to rethink this set up? THe cost is slightly above my price point at $1600 but he said there was some room to worth with there. My other concern is although I understand the benefits of buying through a local factory direct manner, as someone who perhaps has become too dependent on product reviews, there is no way of telling what the reception that particular bed receives by other buyers. I suppose the assumption that better materials being used to begin with should be enough to rest concerns of product satisfaction.

For clarification purposes, is blended talalay considered 100% natural latex or just 100% latex ( it being a mix of synthetic and natural latex)?

Thanks!

Hi brc722,

ILD is a comfort spec so it’s not particularly important to know when you are testing mattresses locally where your testing will tell you if a mattress is firm or soft enough.

I agree that there are no obvious weak links in the mattress … but then that’s not surprising when you are dealing with a good manufacturer like Worley :slight_smile:

I’m guessing you are referring to Talalay GL (which uses phase change gel in the Talalay to help with temperaturre regulation). I agree with his comments and the gel won’t affect the durability of the latex.

How “other buyers” feel on a mattress has little to do with how it will feel and perform for you in terms of PPP and relying on this type of information can be more misleading than helpful. Your careful and objective testing will tell you more about how a mattress will feel and perform for you than any reviews and knowing the construction and quality of the materials inside a mattress is the only way to evaluate and assess it’s quality and durability. Post #13 here has more about why I believe mattress reviews are not a particularly useful way to choose a mattress (it would be something like buying food or clothes based on other people’s preferences).

Blended Talalay is 100 % Talalay latex (it’s a latex core made with the Talalay method of production so it’s either Talalay latex or it’s not) but it uses a blend of about 30% natural rubber and about 70% synthetic rubber so it’s not 100% natural. Technically I suppose you could say that a latex core or layer isn’t 100% latex (meaning rubber) because there are also other substances that are used to produce the foam besides just the raw latex rubber (foaming agents, curing agents, gelling agents, anti-degradants, and others) but the percentages refer to the relative percentage of natural and/or synthetic rubber in the final product not the total percentage of rubber itself. In other words … 100% natural latex (either Talalay or Dunlop) means that all the rubber in the product is natural … not that the product is 100% rubber and contains nothing else.

Phoenix

In looking at my mattress choices thus far, I find myself alittle confused as to how to proceed. Since I did not dislike the feel of the memory foam layers over innerspring on the Serta Flattery Firm, I haven’t ruled it out. I understand that the feel between latex and memory foam are completely different but unfortunately, I did find both comfortable and supportive. I like the breathability and floaty feeling of the latex, but also like the firm yet soft give from the memory foam! Gah! !!! I did find out that the gel cooling memory foam used in the Serta is 5.3 density and only uses two layers of foam, one being a gel memory foam and the other a hd polyfoam, above the pocketed duel coils. I think I read somewhere here to avoid anything more than 3 layers or 3 inches of memory foam on the top comfort layers? There is a polyfoam layer on top which I didn’t realize and failed to ask for the density info on that. This model fits more into my price point of $1200 but if in 7 years the mattress is nothing short of a disaster, then Id rather pay more for the latex innerspring or the latex/plant poly core hybrid.

So, right now my choices remain:

the latex innerspring from factory direct manufacturer $1600 (before negotiating)
Nature’s Rest latex/plant poly core $1600
Serta iseries Flattery Firm $1200
Habitat Dunlop latex bed $1500 (which seems like a good value for a 100% all natural latex and pretty straightforward process but buying without testing is always scary)

(this includes all extra costs ie frames)

What types of things do you think I should take into account while pondering these options? Initial comfort factor aside, as all were comfortable and felt good to me. Coming from a 25 yr old mattress has made anything new with some padding feel amazing!!! So, that is kind of been a drawback since I haven’t really been sleeping on different mattresses over the years.

Again, thank you! :slight_smile:

Thanks for the clarification! Seeing 100% natural latex so many places, its hard to know exactly what they are saying! Not a 100% rubber bed! :wink:

Youre very right on the importance of reviews, they can have their uses but really satisfaction is such an subjective thing. Thanks for reminding me of this!

Hi brc722,

Some mattresses have a combination of both materials in the comfort layers (either memory foam over latex or latex over memory foam) which may be worth testing if there is a local mattress that has this type of construction. It has part of the “feel” of both.

Some comments about your choices …

I would certainly consider this.

I would want to know the specifics of this mattress in terms of the layering but if you have tested this locally and it’s a good match for you in terms of PPP then it may be worth considering even though it’s more costly than some similar mattresses that are available to you.

I would want to know the specifics of all the layers in this mattress because there are some “suspect” materials inside it in terms of durability.

I’m not sure which of their mattresses you are looking at (model and size) but there are some other online latex options that are available to you (linked in the tutorial post) which for most people would probably be better “value” and have more options available either before and after a purchase.

I would follow the steps in the tutorial post one by one and use the criteria of your personal value equation that are most important to you to make any choices between your “finalists”.

You are considering several mattresses that I would probably have ruled out based on the guidelines and suggestions in the tutorial post.

Phoenix

I know, i know …i think that the S mattress just kept its appeal bc its right at my ideal pricepoint but i know , its got weak spots. The Natyres Rest i planned to find out more specifics now that i know what to be looking for.

I spent more time rereading some areas of the site and came across your member list and decided to look into a couple more places. I was happy to find spindlemattress which offers all latex in my price range. I will have to ask them what the 100% Natural vs Synthetic blend means…im assuming dunlop vs talaylay… I will have to keep an openmind about possibly ordering latex online. I was abit scared of all the layering talk. I also found ez sleep but only the latex polycore hybrids fell into my budget which not sure how thatd compare to the natures rest ive already gotten to lay on.

In looking through the members list online sources, would you by chance happen to know the ones that offer latex set for $1500 and under?

Thank you.

Hi brc722,

They offer an option for either natural or synthetic Dunlop that are made using a continuous pour process by Mountaintop Foam. They don’t sell Talalay.

I don’t know the prices off the top of my head but they all list their prices on their site so it would be a fairly quick process to scan through them to find the ones that are inside your budget in queen size.

Phoenix

Thanks! Yes i will look into them…i only asked in case you knew one off top of your head…hope you didnt think i expected you to find them! I dont know how you do it keeping up with so many lost ones searching for mattress help but thank you.

You may want to look at this thread for budget latex mattresses.

Hi, Having had the chance to revisit the Natures Rest plant polycore latex hybrid again, i have ruled it out completely. This time i was able to lay on a fully latex bed by Nature’s Rest that was side by side w the polycore hybrid. My discovery was that after feelings of momentary softness and comfort, after a short bit, i could sense my body hitting a more solid level of the mattress which was distinctly not there when i layed on the all latex version…that one, although too mushy on top, gave a relaxing floatinglike sensation.

Since I did not like feeling that hardness beneath the top cushion layer on the polycore hybrid, is it safe to assume i will probably get that same feeling from other polycore beds? I just cant help picturing this hard chunk of polycore at the bottom of these mattresses. I think id feel more assured w an innerspring hybrid if hybrid is the way i need to go.

I found a couple budget all latex options on ez sleep & spindle but had a few questions. Im looking at Ez sleep’s Queen 7000 Natural Latex which would be two layers of 3" inch latex ( blended talayay or dunlop) and they also have the Roma which is a flippable 9" all Dunlop latex bed with a plush medium on one side and firm on the other. My concern there is that there is no way for me to test the feel of Dunlop. In the case of Spindle mattress, they only offer Dunop. However, 3 layers of it.

I like that ez sleep gives me talaylay option but only two layers…over the three at spindle. How should i be figuring in the amount of latex layers in trying to figure which would be optimal setup? Whats more important- the type of latex or the # of layers? And what about the flippable dunlop one …i do wonder if the plush medium would be too firm for me.

Once i feel more secure in these concerns, i will make the choice between the latex innerspring by worley or an all latex budget one as above. I plan to visit worley again to concentrate on the feel of the bed as well. Do u have any advice for me being that Id have access to 100% blended talaylay latex beds while there and how i could possibly compare it to feel of dunlop? Just think less springy? Or is much more complex than that?

Thanks!

What is your opinion of this scenario: If one’s only option is Dunlop (as is the case w Spindle) and one chooses the configuration of having a soft top layer (ie soft/medium/firm) and that top layer is not soft enough for you…how would that be fixed? Would changing the middle layer to soft (soft/soft/firm?) change the feel of the top layer or just cause more of a softer feel lower into mattress? I ask bc if one starts w the softest at top layer, and you find its still too hard, is this something no amount of layer exchanges would fix?

Hi brc722,

You could either use softer layers under the top layer as you suggested or you could add an additional soft topper (thicker layers of soft latex are softer than thinner layers). For example soft/medium/medium would also be slightly softer than soft/medium/firm (although the difference would be more subtle) and soft/soft/firm would have a softer surface yet.

With either of these though there would be a tradeoff between pressure relief and support/alignment so it’s always the “balance” between them that is important.

Phoenix

I think you may have easily missed my previous post because i made two posts and i only see a reply to the last one. There are some issues there that id appreciate any feedback on if possible.

Hi brc722,

I think you’re right :slight_smile:

This would depend on the design of the mattress including the type and thickness of the latex comfort layers and the type and firmness of the polyfoam support layer so it’s not possible to make a generalized comment about this because the answer would be “it depends” and “sometimes yes” and “sometimes no”. Typically though a latex support layer is more flexible and adaptive and not as “stiff” as polyfoam. There is more about some of the differences between a latex/polyfoam hybrid and an all latex mattress in post #2 here.

When you can’t test a mattress locally then a combination of your own local testing on similar mattresses and more detailed conversations with the manufacturer can help you make the choice that has the highest chance of success based on “averages” for your body type, sleeping style, and preferences (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

SleepEz has 2, 3, and 4 layer mattresses that have an option to use Talalay in addition to their specials. The optimal setup would depend on which one was the best match for you in terms of PPP and your personal value equation. If you can’t test a mattress in person then deciding on a which choice a manufacturer offers which was best for you would be based on your conversations with each manufacturer. They know their mattresses and which one would have the highest chance of success better than anyone else.

The type of latex is a personal preference and would be important to people who preferred one type of latex over another. You can read a little more about the difference in “feel” between them in post #7 here but your own personal testing on each type of latex is the best way to know which one you prefer.

Post #2 here has more about the benefits of having more layers vs less but this is only part of the design of a mattress that is important because a mattress of the same thickness and overall firmness in the comfort and support layers may be just as good a choice for you in terms of PPP. A mattress that has more layers (of the same thickness and firmness) gives you more options to customize the mattress either before or after a purchase. There is also more about the thickness of individual layers and a mattress in post #14 here that is also an important part of making a choice that is most suitable for your body type, sleeping positions, and preferences.

All the layers and components of a mattress interact together and affect each other and every difference in design between two mattresses (including the cover and quilting) will have an effect on the feel and performance of the mattress. While Talalay will generally feel more “springy” than Dunlop … there are many other factors involved in deciding on the design or a mattress that is best for you but it all boils down to deciding which one is the best “match” for you based either on your own personal testing or on more detailed conversations with each online manufacturer you are considering.

All of these tradeoffs and deciding on which one is “best for you” (regardless of whether it may be best for anyone else) and your final choice depends on which parts of your personal value equation are most important to you.

Phoenix

Ive been reading the links you provided and have found some helpful information regarding the amount and thickness of layers in a mattress. Thank you!