Hello Phoenix,
Such an awesome forum and education eco-system you’ve set up here. I really appreciate it and am now down to the wire for deciding on my mattress after many hours spent here as well as a few phone calls to Arizona Mattress Co.
Stats: I am 5’ 7" 150 lbs and sleep 60% on my back, 30% side, 10% stomach.
Goal: Cobble together a 100% all natural Talalay latex mattress from Arizona Mattress Co. that gets me close to the PLB Essence, maybe another inch comfort layer, but not quite as soft as the Elegance (it gives too much for my back).
I went to HB and unzipped the two mattresses. There was only one tag on the core that confirmed it was 36 ILD, but no tags on the others, so as far as I could tell visually and supplementing with ILD’s from other posts here, the layers (all glued together) were as follows:
Essence (10" total)
1" of the blue Celsion (15ILD)
two 1" comfort layers (24 ILD)
6" core (36 ILD)
1" of stabilization (40 ILD)
Elegance (12" total)
1" of the blue Celsion (15ILD)
two 2" comfort layers (24 ILD)
6" core (36 ILD)
1" of stabilization (40 ILD)
So, I prefer the Essence more than the Elegance, but think if I had another inch, I’d have the perfect mattress. Since I favor the firmer Essence, I am thinking another inch of 24 ILD would be preferable to another inch of the 15 ILD. Any intuitive input on that specific ILD layering since I can’t really test it?
Next, Arizona offers either a 2" 22 ILD or 3" 19 or 28 ILD comfort layer with their all natural Talalay core.
Other all natural topper options are
1.8" 21 ILD or
3" 20-24, 25-29, or 30-34 ILD.
So, this is the difficult part, any idea how I could configure a mattress amongst these options to meet the Essence+ goal?
(I’ve run through several layering options and it all comes out to be about the same price in the end.)
I suppose I could just add any 1" or 2" layer from sleeplikeabear.com and just be sure to get the mattress cover from Arizona sized to accommodate it.
If you are designing and building your own mattress out of separate components the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to so that you can make sure that you have realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the uncertainty and trial and error (or in some cases higher costs) that may be involved in the DIY process. The best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).
I would also read post #9 here and the posts it links to about the different ways that one mattress can “match” another one because even relatively small differences between two mattresses can make a surprising or unexpected difference for some people … especially if they are more towards the “princess and the pea” than the “I can sleep on anything” end of the range in terms of their sensitivity to smaller differences between two mattresses.
The most reliable way to “approximate” another mattress would be to accurately find out all the specifics of a mattress that you are using as a “blueprint” and then buy all the individual layers with exactly the same type, thickness, and ILD and layer them inside a very similar cover. If you don’t have the exact specifics of the mattress you are using as a blueprint or if the information you have is incorrect then of course the materials you buy will end up being different from the mattress you tested. There would also be some difference that some people may feel between glued and unglued layers. While you can see the ILD and thickness of the “regular” PLB layers to the best of my knowledge in post #2 here … I don’t know the specifics of the layers in the Healthy Back mattresses and there would be some differences so you would need to be confident that the information you have about the specs is accurate. If you aren’t certain about the specs of the Healthy Back mattresses then it may be a good idea to test some of the “regular” PLB mattresses to use one of them as your blueprint.
I would also keep in mind that there are too many unknowns, variables, and preferences involved for anyone to be able to know with any certainty which design or combination of layers may work best for you based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or theory at a distance (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here). Your own testing or experience is really the only reliable way to know whether a mattress or combination of layers is a good match for you in terms of PPP or how closely it will match another mattress.
[quote]So, this is the difficult part, any idea how I could configure a mattress amongst these options to meet the Essence+ goal?
(I’ve run through several layering options and it all comes out to be about the same price in the end.)[/quote]
Again … I don’t know the specifics of the Healthy Back mattresses so I don’t know which combination of layers would come closest (outside of the exact same layers if you are confident that the specs you have are accurate). If you were able to share the specifics of your actual sleeping experience with a specific configuration you have slept on for a few days and then provide some feedback about how it is different from your “blueprint” mattress or your “ideal” in terms of PPP then I could make some suggestions or “guesses” about any changes in layering that may move you closer to what you are looking for but without this I wouldn’t have any reference points that I can use to make any meaningful suggestions.
This would depend on the specifics of what you are looking to change in terms of “feel”, comfort/pressure relief, or support/alignment and on where you are inside the range of all of these that would work best for you. Adding another inch of 15 ILD would make more of a difference in terms of the surface feel of the mattress and would add a little pressure relief. Adding another inch or 24 ILD under the would also add a bit of pressure relief but would make less of a difference in the “surface feel” of the mattress.
[quote]Next, Arizona offers either a 2" 22 ILD or 3" 19 or 28 ILD comfort layer with their all natural Talalay core.
Other all natural topper options are
1.8" 21 ILD or
3" 20-24, 25-29, or 30-34 ILD.[/quote]
Differences in ILD in the range of 2 or 3 ILD if the Talalay is the same type and blend made by the same manufacturer wouldn’t make much difference and would be inside the normal variance of latex layers anyway as long as you are using the same thickness of all the layers. I would keep in mind that the Talalay in the Healthy Back mattresses is blended while the Talalay you are considering seems to be 100% natural so this will make some difference as well. Once you have differences that are more than about 2 or 3 ILD or differences in any of the layer thicknesses or the type of latex then the results can be more unpredictable and you would need to actually sleep on the mattress to know how it compared and then use your actual sleeping experience as a reference point to decide on the type of changes you believe would move you closer to either your blueprint mattress or your “ideal” in terms of PPP. Smaller differences in layers that are closer to the surface will also have more effect for most people than smaller differences in layers that are deeper inside the mattress.
If you are choosing between the layers that you have available from Arizona Premium and you are trying to match “theoretical feel” of the Essence (assuming that the specs you mentioned are correct) with an additional 1’ of 24 ILD in the second layer then I would start with a 6" 36 ILD core, add the 3" transition layer of 20 -24 ILD and then the 1.8" layer of 21 ILD on top which would be as close as you could get with what you have available.
If I was doing what you are doing though I would put together layers that were likely to be a bit firmer than my final design goal and then I would use my actual sleeping experience to decide on what I wanted to use for any “finishing touches”. This means that I would probably buy the 36 ILD core and the 3" of 20 - 24 ILD and the mattress protector you are planning to use and then stop there and sleep on this (with the mattress protector and your sheets) for a week or two and then decide on any additional layers that you think you need to add based on your actual sleeping experience and taking into account the effect of the cover you plan to use as well (which will slightly firm up the “feel” to some degree depending on the specifics and tightness of the cover). I would then order any additional layer you believe is necessary based on your experience and then sleep on this for a week or two as well. If you are satisfied I would then buy the cover in the thickness that will fit your final configuration.
This type of “bottom up” approach modified by your actual experience at various steps along the way will probably give you your best chance of success with the least chance of buying layers that you don’t end up using and can’t return or exchange … especially if the layers you are using are different from your “blueprint” mattress.
I believe the Elegance is:
1" 15 Celsion (replacing an inch of the top 3" 19 ILD layer in the “old” PLB Beautiful model)
2" 19
2" 24
6" 36
1" 40+ stabilization layer
The Pristine is:
3" 15
3" 24
6" 36
Not sure about the Essence however, as I never looked into replicating it with my DIY build (much too firm for my taste), but it might be 2" of 21 Celsion over 1" of 28 on top since it’s the rough equivalent of the old Nature (2" of 19 over 1" 28).
The new Nature is 2" 21 Celsion over 2" 28, so one more inch in the comfort/transition layer than the old version. This might be closer to what you are looking for. You might try to find a PLB retailer to try out the new Nature model. That said, since you’re a side-sleeper 30% of the time, be aware that most forum members in your weight range have found the Nature too firm for side sleeping (I realize you’re predominately a back sleeper however, so it might work for you). I would recommend that you do a forum search for “Nature” and read all the comments you can. Many ended up exchanging the Nature for a softer model or later adding a 3" topper. Of course, everyone is different and one person’s firm is another person’s soft and vice versa.
One thing I would personally recommend against is buying 1" layers. 1" layers act EXTREMELY soft when loose/unglued and you’ll sink right through them. Keep in mind that PLB glues all of the layers together and this makes the bed sturdier/firmer feeling than if the layers are loose and unglued. (3) separate 1" layers will feel noticeably softer than a single 3" layer of the same ILD for example. I mistakenly bought a few 1" layers as toppers for a very firm innerspring mattress several years back (before I built my own DIY latex mattress) and they feel very different than thicker layers of the same ILD. I personally wouldn’t ever purchase anything less than a 2" layer.
Does Arizona Mattress offer a stretch knit cover similar to the PLB/Heathy Back models? If they use a quilted wool cover, the mattress will undoubtedly feel different. Just something to be aware of. I started out with a quilted cover (with wool in the quilting) when building my DIY mattress and never could get it to feel “right”. I now have a stretch cover which is very similar to the PLB/Healthy Back models and the latex definitely feels/conforms better.
And I definitely echo Phoenix’s comments re: DIY and trying to replicate another mattress without the EXACT same components. You may eventually get close, but even small differences in ILD and/or thickness of the layers can lead to BIG changes in feel. Trust me - I’ve got a spare bedroom full of 2-3" layers of various ILDs. Designing a mattress is tricky business indeed!
After reading some more in those links above and the advice given, I’m going to head to Mattress Fame in Rockville (spoke to John) to check out PLB’s direct line, specifically the Nature and Nutrition. I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re right JKoz, that I’ll prefer the Nutrition if anything over the Nature (I’ll keep my mind open!). It kinda has an inverted comfort layer config, so who knows what that’ll feel like… it could just add to the confusion! I do know that the Elegance gives too much while on my back.
I also intend to emphasize the first two P’s over the third in the PPP equation so that if one of these PLB direct lines fits the first two P’s just right I’ll go with the natural Talalay, as you’ve said elsewhere, Phoenix, PLB’s are solid choices. Though I tend to lean green and try to get the highest quality products for the money, I have no pressing reason to prefer “all natural” Talalay over just natural.
[quote=“Buck” post=38998]Thanks Phoenix and JKoz. Pefect advice.
After reading some more in those links above and the advice given, I’m going to head to Mattress Fame in Rockville (spoke to John) to check out PLB’s direct line, specifically the Nature and Nutrition. I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re right JKoz, that I’ll prefer the Nutrition if anything over the Nature (I’ll keep my mind open!). It kinda has an inverted comfort layer config, so who knows what that’ll feel like… it could just add to the confusion! I do know that the Elegance gives too much while on my back.
I also intend to emphasize the first two P’s over the third in the PPP equation so that if one of these PLB direct lines fits the first two P’s just right I’ll go with the natural Talalay, as you’ve said elsewhere, Phoenix, PLB’s are solid choices. Though I tend to lean green and try to get the highest quality products for the money, I have no pressing reason to prefer “all natural” Talalay over just natural.
So thanks again and happy 4th![/quote]
Make sure you try the Beautiful as well while you’re there. It’s similar to the Elegance, but I found the Beautiful slightly firmer than the Elegance in the latest version (possibly because it’s softest layer is 21 ILD vs. the Elegance’s top layer of 15 ILD). I weigh similar to you (150-155 lbs) and I did not find it too soft while on my back (although I’m admittedly not a back sleeper). If anything, the Beautiful was slightly too firm for me as a side sleeper. As a result, my DIY configuration is similar but has a softer core/base than the Beautiful.
Well, you were right, JKoz, the Nature ended up being too firm for my liking. In other words, it reminded me a lot of HB’s Essence, which didn’t quite get me there.
Unfortunately, I was overconfident about the Nature that I didn’t ask what else they had before I showed up. They only had a World’s Best and the Vitality hybrid (supposedly the equivalent to the Nutrition in feel). I did like the Vitality better than the Nature or WB, but after reading some on the Vitality, I’m removing that from the equation and will search around for a store with an actual Nutrition and Beautiful to compare.
I laid on the World’s Best for a good 10+ minutes and while it started to grow on me, I still think it might be too soft… which means I should up my test time to at least 15 min per mattress. Still, it’s making me think the Beautiful might be in my range.
So, until then, JKoz, out of curiosity, what ended up being your DIY config and from where? Thanks!
The PLB website should help you find retailers in your area - hopefully you’ll be able to find some places that have the models you’d like to test. Definitely give them 15+ minutes each - preferably more if you think the bed is a real contender. That said, I don’t think I can ever really tell if I REALLY like a bed until I’ve slept on it for 1-2 weeks.
I’m still working on our DIY configuration, and haven’t 100% decided on the final configuration. Let’s just say that I have a LOT of latex and can replicate just about any bed I’d like (PLB or otherwise). I just got what I’m hoping will be my final piece of latex in the mail yesterday, so I’ve still got a week or two of testing left before I select a “winner”.
My final configuration will probably be something along the lines of the following (and feel very similar to the World’s Best Bed / Healthy Back Pristine):
4-way stretch cotton mattress cover - 12" (from SleepEz - very nice and stretchy - similar to the PLB covers)
3" 15 (Latex International)
3" 22 (Radium)
6" 36 (LI)
3" 19 ILD topper in a zippered cover underneath the 12" mattress encasement (between the mattress and the slatted foundation).
OR
4-way stretch cotton mattress cover - 12" (from SleepEz - very nice and stretchy - similar to the PLB covers)
3" 15 (LI)
3" 24 (LI)
6" 32 or 36 (LI)
3" 19 ILD topper in a zippered cover underneath the 12" mattress encasement (between the mattress and the slatted foundation).
Many of the PLB beds use a foundation with 4" of 19 ILD latex on top of the foundation beneath the mattress. This completely changes the feel of the bed (for the better in my opinion) and the 3" topper that I’m using replicates this feel quite nicely. When testing PLB beds, pay attention for this, as the bed feels much different with/without this layer of latex at the bottom. Some people prefer the latex foundation while others will find it too soft. Some PLB retailers set up their beds on split foundations where half of the bed is on a firm foundation and half of it is set up on the foundation with 4" of latex on top. The two sides will feel very different.
I’m a 150lb side sleeper and I have consistently kept my wife’s core 1 step firmer than my side with each configuration, as she’s ~50 lbs lighter than me. For example, if my side is configured with a 6" 36 ILD core, hers is configured with a 32 ILD core. If I have a 32 ILD core, she gets a 28 ILD core. If/when I’ve configured her side with the same core as mine, she ALWAYS complains that it’s too firm. So going 1 step softer on her side seems to work well.
Since you weigh about the same as me (and liked the feel of the WBB), you may like a configuration that’s similar to mine, but perhaps slightly firmer since you primarily sleep on your back. That could mean replacing the top 3" of 15 ILD with 3" of something around 19-21 ILD which is essentially the Beautiful (vs. my configuration which essentially matches the WBB/Pristine in feel and is better for my pressure points as a bony side sleeper).
Most (but not all) of my latex was ordered from KTT (kttenterprises.com) which has great prices and are great people to work with. I did order a few pieces elsewhere before I found out about KTT and my Radium pieces were ordered elsewhere (KTT only carries LI).
The PLB website should help you find retailers in your area. Hopefully you’ll be able to find some places that have the models you’d like to test. Definitely give them 15+ minutes each - preferably more if you think the bed is a real contender. That said, I don’t think I can ever really tell if I REALLY like a bed until I’ve slept on it for 1-2 weeks.
I’m still working on our DIY configuration, and haven’t 100% decided on the final configuration. Let’s just say that I have a LOT of latex and can replicate just about any latex bed design I’d like (PLB or otherwise). I just got what I’m hoping will be my final piece of latex in the mail yesterday, so I’ve still got a week or two of testing left before I select a “winner”.
My final configuration will probably be something along the lines of the following (and feel very similar to the PLB Beautiful but with a slightly softer core/base):
4-way stretch cotton mattress cover - 12" (from SleepEz - very nice and stretchy - similar to the PLB covers)
3" 19
3" 24
3" 32
3" 32
3" 19 ILD topper in a zippered cover underneath the 12" mattress encasement (between the mattress and the slatted foundation).
Many of the PLB beds use a foundation with 4" of 19 ILD latex on top of the foundation beneath the mattress. This completely changes the feel of the bed (for the better in my opinion) and the 3" topper that I’m using replicates this feel quite nicely. When testing PLB beds, pay attention for this, as the bed feels much different with/without this layer of latex at the bottom. Some people prefer the latex foundation while others will find it too soft. Some PLB retailers set up their beds on split foundations where half of the bed is on a firm foundation and half of it is set up on the foundation with 4" of latex on top. The two sides will feel very different.
I’m a 150lb side sleeper and I have consistently kept my wife’s core 1 step softer than my side with each configuration, as she’s ~50 lbs lighter than me. For example, if my side is configured with a 36 ILD core, hers is configured with a 32 ILD core. If I have a 32 ILD core, she gets a 28 ILD core. If/when I’ve configured her side with the same core as mine, she ALWAYS complains that it’s too firm. So going 1 step softer on her side seems to work well.
Since you weigh about the same as me you may like a configuration that’s similar to mine, which is similar to the PLB Beautiful but a tad softer.
Most (but not all) of my latex was ordered from KTT (kttenterprises.com) which has great prices and are great people to work with. I did order a few pieces elsewhere before I found out about KTT and my Radium pieces were ordered elsewhere (KTT only carries LI).
eBay retailer “latextoppers” is reputable (they are part of D&E Worldwide which owns Sleep Like A Bear). They offer Radium in every ILD and also offer a return policy. I just noticed they are running a sale this weekend (ending today) while grabbing the hyperlink: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261332390986
SleepEz also carries Radium, although I don’t believe they offer every ILD. You’d need to check with them to see what they can order for you.
This question is for jkozlow3 if you are still attending the forum:
The Radium pieces you bought:
Did you get the blended or 100% natural? I’m sitting on the fence trying to decide which to get.
How much odor did they have? I have 3 year old pieces of Talatech from LI that still have a very strong smell. My understanding is that Radium does a more thorough job washing their product than LI.
I thank you in advance
Thank you for replying so quickly. I was basing my odor comparison based on a topper from Berkeley Ergonomics…much more mild than my LI pieces. Maybe it’s just the luck of the draw when it comes to the scent factor.
Thanks again.
