PLB Nature and Low Back Pain

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
6

I actually was going to start a new thread called PLB Beautiful fails again, but depending on where this one goes, Phoenix might want to rename it since we are having exactly the same issues and both need to figure this out and solve the problem! :slight_smile:

Like you, I’m pretty sensitive to sags and changing mattresses. I’m 5’ 8" and 155#, hubby is 6’3" and 200#, both side sleepers. We went through three Simmons World Class Beautyrests in 4 years! I found this forum because I wanted something “lasting” so we didn’t have to keep buying new beds. I grew up on Latex and loved it and that bed lasted almost 25 years.

In the last 9 months, we’ve tried Tempurpedic, Sterns and Foster Hybrid (the offgassing fumes got me)… and then turned those in for the PLB Latex.

We started on a Nature, but even with a 2" PLB topper, it was too firm for me. My hips sank enough to feel the 28 ILD (is what it felt like) even with the topper. So we traded that in for a Beautiful (#1) Delivered June 1.

Loved it so much that 3 weeks later ordered a PLB Beautiful (#2) for our second home which was delivered July 16. It is still as supportive and wonderful as the first day we received it and I’m going to guess that we’ve slept on it about 2 months total off and on since July.

The first of August, #1 started changing. It was losing support and we no longer “floated” on top of it… more like our mid section and shoulders were sagging into it. It affected my leg muscles too… I’d wake up with my bottom leg stretched out and upper leg rotated over a pillow trying to stabilize my back maybe? Woke up aching all over and lower back was really having problems. Spent a LOT of time at the chiropractor and masseuse who both told me to do something about the bed. We noticed the bed started looking like two cots pushed together with sags down the middle of each side. Also discovered the PLB foundation had no solid top on it which was adding to the problem, so replaced those with solid top Tempurpedic foundations. The bed (and my back) got worse. I started filing a claim with PLB in September and the retailer picked up the Bed #1 (and the foundations) and replaced with a Simmons Black Plush which we didn’t like at all.

Latex International took forever to “work” the warranty claim… our retailer sent tons of photos trying to show the 3/4" sags. We gave up on Latex International doing anything after a month of this.

Bed #2 at our second home was still great with no problems, and I was so miserable with the Simmons that we ordered a PLB Beautiful from Mattress To Go at a VERY good price and with great service. Granted, it took three weeks to reach us, but then we live in the “back 40” of South Texas.

Meanwhile, 10 days after I’d ordered the Beautiful, the claim came through! It was on a Wednesday, and the replacement mattress was delivered to our retailer on Friday! They brought it down (3 hour drive) a few days later on October 14 - picked up the Simmons (thank you) and left Beautiful #3 the warranty replacement. (is this getting crazy or what)?

Mattress To Go Beautiful (#4) was delivered on October 24 and went upstairs to our guest room.

No I never planned to have/order/have replaced all this but it’s the way it worked out.

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Hi lotus65,

The Simmons Triton is a foundation not a box spring. It doesn’t have any springs inside it so it would have very limited flex. If the surface is still even (you can check with a straight edge or a tight string across the surface) then it would be fine to use under your mattress.

The plywood would eliminate any slight flexing under your mattress that comes from the foundation which would make it feel firmer. Most people wouldn’t notice a great deal of difference between the Triton and the plywood because any flex in the Triton foundation would be fairly small but some people may be more sensitive and feel a larger difference.

It’s very possible that a mattress can be both too firm and too soft at the same time. For example it could be too firm under the shoulders and too soft under the hips or the deeper layers could be too soft and the upper layers could be too firm for a specific body type or sleeping style (or vice versa).

It would have more flex under the mattress than the Triton. It could make the problem worse because it would flex more under the heavier parts of your body but the only way to know whether it would be helpful or detrimental would be to try it. The Lonset may be a better choice for a flexible foundation because you could firm up the center section under the heavier part of your body.

It may be worth trying some of the zoning suggestions in the previous post I linked to see if they help.

Phoenix

8

A couple weeks ago… Replacement Bed #3 started changing, very much like PLB #1 which it replaced!! I couldn’t believe it. We can’t visually see the sags (yet), but they are no doubt coming. Like you, we’ve turned all our beds - in our case 90 Degrees every couple weeks. Despite this… the middle of the bed (about 12" wide) is trying to maintain the original support of the whole bed. It’s the only place it feels normal. I’ve purposely slept right in the middle for the last couple weeks and it seems to be losing a bit of support now.

So, we moved NEW #4 to our room and failing #3 to the guest room. Yes, we can both tell the difference in the failing one and the “just started sleeping on it #4. We “float” on #4 (as with all of them when they were new) yet with the 2” PLB topper have the pressure relief we need. Husband described the failing one as “it feels harder” and that’s same for me. From what we can tell, the upper layer or layers of the Beautiful compress and yet support, but then the failing ones seem to soften enough to just compress right down to the medium layer which kills the “float” and the pressure relief.

If these beds (failed #1 and failing #3) were 3 or 4 years old, I might not be so concerned, but we are talking months here. And really the comfort and support started changing on both at about 6 weeks, slowly getting worse and worse.

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That’s crazy Scubamom. I didn’t think there could be anyone that’s gone through more beds than I have! I hope you get it all sorted out. I myself am not sure what I should do. My husband cringes every time I say the word “bed” or “mattress.” I guess I’ll just have to wait it out and see if the holes get a little deeper.

Phoenix I did put a straight edge across the foundation and I did find it to be sagging. That was what prompted me to put the plywood on top of it, which seems to have made the mattress feel worse. I guess I am one of those more sensitive people as the mattress didn’t seem to feel quite as firm on the Triton foundation as it does on the plywood.

Where do you put the Lonset base? Right now I have a metal frame, the foundation, the plywood and the mattress.

10

Hi Scubamom,

Wow … that certainly isn’t good news.

I’m hopeful that this isn’t pointing to a quality control issue with PLB/Latex International similar to what happened a few years ago.

It could also be an issue with 14 ILD latex itself in combination with certain body types, sleeping styles, or levels of sensitivity because very soft materials of any type will be less durable than firmer versions of the same material and some manufacturers I know won’t warranty a mattress that uses latex that is that soft because of the potential for durability issues.

While your issues may be different from the specific issues lotus65 is experiencing … I’m hopeful that they don’t have lowered quality control as a common root because the Nature uses firmer latex than the Beautiful so it wouldn’t be an issue of the mattress using 14 ILD latex. If this is a quality control issue then it will also start showing up in other mattresses made by other manufacturers that are also using Latex International Talalay.

Phoenix

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Lotus, what thickness of plywood did you use? 3/8" 1/2" 3/4"? We looked at Bunkie boards to put over the topless foundation before we bought the solid top tempurpedic foundations and Bunkie flexed too much to be much help.

Also, you might try thicker mattress pads… we’ve put everything on our bed from the thick knit ones to 3/4" thick mattress pads to see if that might help. While the Cozy Pure knit one gave us the “feel” of latex - it seemed to make the “sag” feel worse. The thick pad works the bed for us.

We also took our 2" PLB topper off to see if that might “firm up” the feel or give more support and it made the “sink to hard layer” worse without adding any support. Like Phoenix said, the topper can follow sags on the mattress… yep, that’s what happened.

Since I refuse to buy YET another PLB or any other mattress for that matter, I wonder if using a firmer 2" topper might help. The PLB one is supposedly 15 ILD, but if we used a 19 ILD or 21 ILD perhaps that might put more floating support into the failing one? What do you think Phoenix?

Lotus, like your hubby, mine doesn’t want to hear the word “bed” anymore, much less go shopping for one (again). Neither do I for that matter. :slight_smile:

I"m looking for a solution to the problem of trying to save the failing mattress (and who knows, in two months #4 may be in the same shape!)

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Well, you have brought up the next question I was going to ask… I too am a bit concerned of the quality issues, at least in the lower ILDs. We now have 2 out of 4 Beautifuls that are bummers :frowning:

Unfortunately, the mattress tag says that #3 and #4 were manufactured on the same date, so it will be interesting to see what happens to new #4 and if it follows what #3 is doing! :frowning: PLB #2 that was manufactured in mid July is fine… perfectly fine so far… great support, great comfort, just what we want and need. PLB #1 might have been affected by the defective PLB foundations, but we did replace those with the tempurpedic.

I’m also wondering since the layers of the Beautiful (not sure the Nature changed over the years) changed, if that has something to do with it. You used to list 21 ILD over 24 ILD over 36 ILD and now the 21 is 15 ILD? I can’t believe they’d put 3" of 15, but maybe so. You sure it is now 15 on top?

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Scubamom, I’m not sure how thick the plywood is, but there is absolutely no flex to it, and I’m using a knit mattress cover with knit sheets. I’ve found that if I don’t cover the mattress with something stretchy, I get more pressure point pain.

About the topper, I had purchased a 2" latex topper from Walmart.com (Classic Brands) that was supposed to be 19 ILD for my son’s too-soft innerspring mattress. He did feel that it made the mattress more comfortable, but he wasn’t having a problem with body impressions - the mattress was simply too soft. I think that if you have a problem with impressions, the topper would just follow the impressions. However, if it’s just that it’s too soft, it could possibly help.

14

The Nature is supposed to be 2" of 21 ILD over 2" of 28 ILD over 6" of 40?

Our problem with the Nature was 4" of soft/medium layers over the rock hard base layer wasn’t enough to keep the pressure point happy and the support was a bit too firm. That’s when we bought the PLB 2" 15 ILD topper. It still felt too hard, so I bought a twin sized 19 ILD to put under the PLB topper! Then it lost support. Gave the 19 to a friend and he’s delighted. We traded the Nature in for the first Beautiful.

That said… the PLB Nutrition (if they still make it) is 3" of 27 ILD over 3" 24 ILD over the core 6"… in other words, the softest layer is in the middle. From what I’ve read, it gave good support to a lot of people… more so than the Nature or Beautiful. That’s sorta what I have in mind… maybe layering something firmer on top of ours.

2 more inches of 19 or 21 ILD might work for you too. Can you borrow your son’s topper and see what it feels like on your bed?

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Actually, I can’t because he took it to college with him! My problem seems to be both impressions and softness anyway, so it would probably just make everything worse.

I did lay on the Nutrition before I purchased the Nature. I didn’t feel like it would support me right at the time, but maybe you’re right. At this point I think I’m stuck with what I have and I have to make it work somehow. Sleeping pills maybe :unsure:

16

Hi scubamom,

None of the PLB mattresses has changed since they switched to version 3 with the active fusion (see here) from version 2 without the active fusion (see here) so the specs that are listed have always been accurate as far as I know … it’s just that may people thought that the ILD of the top layer in the beautiful was higher than it was and PLB even told me it was correct at one point.

I’m sure it’s 15 ILD yes and I “believe” that it always has been.

There are no particularly good solutions for a mattress that either is or has become too soft or has developed soft spots or impressions although there are a few suggestions in post #4 here that may be helpful. Adding a topper to a mattress that is too soft or that has developed soft spots or impressions isn’t usually an effective approach because the topper will just “follow” the impressions or soft spots underneath it. The best approach is to remove and replace the layers that have the issues rather than add something on top of them. At best it would be a very partial or temporary solution and at worst if you are adding more soft foam it could make the issues worse.

Phoenix

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Thanks for the info Phoenix… if this newest Beautiful starts sagging and losing support, I may try to “rebuild” the one that is already failing. If I do that, I’ll start another thread. We’ll see what this newest one does.

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Lotus65, since your mattress is already at 1/2" of sag… it might not take much longer for it to hit 3/4". IF that happens, contact the retailer where you purchased the mattress and have them file a claim with PLB for a replacement. That’s what we did. It may drag out awhile, but PLB DID replace our bed (for better or worse).

I’d say it took about 6 weeks for our Beautiful to go from 1/2" to 3/4". However, our mattress has softer upper layers which might compress/fail faster than yours.

If you need any info on how to file a claim, let me know since we’ve been through it. (and a very nice member of this forum helped guide us through it). Thank goodness for this forum! :slight_smile:

Keep us posted!

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Thank you for your help, Scubamom! I’ve also been thinking that it won’t be long before the sag actually measures 3/4". We’ll see what happens and I will definitely let you know! I’m also interested to know how you make out with your mattress.

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Hi Lotus… now that you’ve started warranty claim procedures, let us know how it goes. Our mattress will probably need one soon with the sags getting worse. As I’ve said… I might expect sags in mattresses that are 3 or 4 years old, but less than a year really makes me wonder what’s going on with the latex layers.

A latex person suggested it might be the base core sagging, but I don’t know any way to tell without unzipping the cover and taking a look. We actually did that on PLB #3 and could see the three layers. The top two (3" each) were firmly glued together, but tacked to the 6" core. Made me think of trying to rebuild the mattress but that would be a major ordeal!

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I will definitely let everyone know how it goes. Right now I have to get a bunch of pictures and send them in with an inspection form. I’m wondering about the base core now. If just the top layers were failing, I’d expect to feel like I’m “bottoming out” which I don’t. Maybe it does have to do with the base core.

22

Hi lotus65,

This would depend on the specific design of the mattress. If there is a relatively thin top layer that softens on top of a firmer layer then you would likely feel more of the firmness of the base layer underneath it but with other designs that have multiple layers that are more gradually progressive such as the Nature any softening or impressions in the top layers would have a different effect because even with visible or virtual impressions there would still be enough thickness to isolate you from the firmness of the support core. It would also depend on the body type and sleeping position of the person and how deeply they sink into the mattress.

I hope you have the chance to let us know how your warranty claim progresses.

@ scubamom,

You will generally find that with latex any visible impressions will happen early in the life of a mattress (most commonly in the first year or so) and then it will typically stabilize.

Phoenix

23

It turns out that my PLB mattress is not sagging after all. We took the whole bed apart to get the necessary photographs to send in with out warranty claim. When we laid the mattress directly on the floor, the sag was gone. It ended up being the foundation that was sagging. I had known about the sag before, but we put a piece of 3/4" plywood on top of the foundation thinking that would solve the problem. Well, apparently the plywood just warped over time (only two or so months actually) and followed the depression on the foundation. We have now rebuilt the foundation and hopefully that is the end of that!

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Hi lotus65,

A sagging foundation is a very common cause of sagging in a mattress (and as you mentioned plywood can warp easily on a sagging foundation).

Thanks for the update and I’m glad to hear that you resolved your issue :).

Phoenix

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Glad you figured it out!