PLB Nature not working for us

Hi all

Thanks to Phoenix for this great website. It’s really nice to not be alone in these mattress struggles.
Last year we purchased a Pure LatexBliss Nature mattress set after reading all the positive reviews about latex, in terms of low motion transfer, dust mite resistance, durability, comfort, etc. Unfortunately, although it feels great for the first several minutes, it becomes intolerable to us overnight. We had never had trouble with mattresses before, so it didn’t concern us much that the place we bought it had a no refund policy. Big mistake. We’ve gone to sleeping on other beds we had in our house and even the sofa has been more comfortable than this high end new bed. But I’m back to trying to either make this work or try to recoup some of our expense via craigslist and then start over. Like some others who have posted here, I have the frustrating situation that despite spending close to $4500 on our new bed, we haven’t got a good solution yet.

We bought two twin XL sets, plus 2" and 3" PLB toppers. We’re average height and weight, though I have more muscle mass in my legs than most. No previous back pain except for some that developed in the last several months of using our 15 year old S&F pillowtop. My wife has left this to me to sort out while she has moved into our guestroom on our old bed. I’m mainly a sidesleeper, but try all kinds of positions throughout each night in the effort to regain a comfortable one. Sleeping on the Nature gives me pain in the mid upper back (mid thoracic spine) or slightly higher, between the shoulder blades, depending on which positions I’ve spent more time in. My wife gets hip pain while on the Nature. It finally went away when she gave up and switched to our old bed in the guestroom.

For me I think it’s from not enough lumbar support. When on the back, my hips sink and the lumbar area sinks as well, causing it to straighten its normal curve, and in turn causing the thoracic spine to mildly hyperextend and resulting in pain. While I’ve read that usually firmer is better for the back, it’s interesting that if I add both toppers for a combined 5", the upper back and hips sink down while the lumbar stays up, and my back feels fine. Someone else posted a similar experience. Sleeping on 5" of topper has other issues though, like feeling like you’re rocking in rubber jello, and on position changes being roused further from sleep.

With either single topper, it feels fantastic for the first few minutes, but gradually there develops an uncomfortable pressure sensation. Maybe the “pushback” others have described, or maybe bottoming out on lower layers. Additionally, the toppers have a relatively consistent ability to compress my nerves. After several minutes on my back, I feel pins and needles down the back of my leg (sciatic nerve compression). On my side I get the same sensation down the outside of my lower leg (peroneal nerve compression). On my side with my arm out I get it down to my hand (partial brachial plexus compression). If I’m on my right side and put my left foot with the inside down, I get there as well (tarsal tunnel compression). Our bodies are designed in a way that these nerves are protected from compression in regular situations by channels formed by adjacent bones and muscles, but it seems that latex has a way of pushing back everywhere, including these areas that otherwise shelter our nerves. I don’t know why only some of us are affected this way, perhaps slight differences in anatomy or body weight distribution relative to a particular latex ILD.

I’m tempted by FloBeds, since they have vZones which could provide selectively more lumbar firmness, and I wonder if their upper layers of wool and egg-crate shaped latex help prevent nerve compression. But we’ve already spent so much on our bed that I don’t want to risk a whole new big outlay. Maybe is there a simple way to modify the Nature to work for us, perhaps by adding a firmer foam in the lumbar area? Or maybe try some other toppers like wool or egg-crate?

But I wonder if we are among those for whom latex just doesn’t work. It’s odd that we have to struggle so much to make this bed work, yet we are perfectly fine when we sleep in virtually any hotel room or relative’s guest room. Tempted to just buy the same as the hotels have, and simply buy new every few years. For the amount we’ve already spent we could have bought many years’ worth of regular beds.

Is your PLB all Talalay? We have a component mattress with three layers of Dunlop and one of Talalay. Initially, the Talalay (med firm) was the top comfort layer, but as a stomach sleeper I started having some minor upper back discomfort. We switched the 3rd level Dunlop (firm) layer with the Talalay and it is now beyond perfect. I discovered that there really is a major difference in how Dunlop feels verses Talalay. Our Talalay layer felt good, but seemed too soft for how I sleep and my weight. :frowning:

After sleeping on the Dunlop for a few nights I have decided that if I ever need a new bed or that I want to replace some layers, I will stick with Dunlop. It still conforms to our bodies, but it isn’t as plush - just a little firmer in feel without feeling rock like. Even with the Talalay as the second layer, the bed still feels very supportive.

My husband never had issues with the Talalay even though he out weighs me by about 75lbs. Although he chose to rearrange his layers to get a firmer feel, which he does prefer. I guess what I am trying to say is that it might not be the latex that is a problem as much as it is the characteristics of Talalay verse Dunlop.

On the other hand, my daughter has a 2" Talalay topper that she absolutely loves. But she is much younger and smaller than me.

Yes, I think the bed is all Talalay, with different firmnesses as detailed here: https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/new-plb-blue-specs
I’m not convinced it’s increased firmness overall that we need, just in the lumbar area. Sleep on stomach relatively rarely, mainly on side.

Hi SleepyDan,

I’m sorry to hear that your mattress isn’t working out as well for you as you hoped for.

Unfortunately your experience is a good example of the reasons why I would avoid using reviews or other people’s experience on a mattress as meaningful part of your own research. While other people’s comments about the knowledge and service of a particular business can certainly be very helpful … other people’s experiences or reviews on a mattress (either positive or negative) are only one person’s experience on a particular mattress and aren’t relevant to anyone else and aren’t a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress and in many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful because any mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on … regardless of the type of materials in the mattress or the cost of the mattress (see post #13 here).

While I can’t speak to how any mattress will “feel” for someone else because this is too subjective and relative to different body types, sleeping positions, and individual preferences, sensitivities, and circumstances … outside of PPP the most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability and assuming that the materials in a mattress you are considering are durable enough for your body type and meet the guidelines here … the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses (including latex) are more of a preference and a budget choice than a “better/worse” choice. Even though latex is a high quality and very durable material … I certainly wouldn’t assume that any particular latex mattress will be a good “match” for any particular person regardless of the quality and durability of the material or the price of the mattress.

Some people prefer sleeping on latex and some don’t just like some people prefer other types of mattresses with different combinations of materials and some don’t. There are also hundreds of different models of latex mattresses in the industry that are very different from each other and even for those that prefer latex … some of them will be a “perfect” match for some people and some of them will be completely unsuitable for them to sleep on.

[quote]We bought two twin XL sets, plus 2" and 3" PLB toppers. We’re average height and weight, though I have more muscle mass in my legs than most. No previous back pain except for some that developed in the last several months of using our 15 year old S&F pillowtop. My wife has left this to me to sort out while she has moved into our guestroom on our old bed. I’m mainly a sidesleeper, but try all kinds of positions throughout each night in the effort to regain a comfortable one. Sleeping on the Nature gives me pain in the mid upper back (mid thoracic spine) or slightly higher, between the shoulder blades, depending on which positions I’ve spent more time in. My wife gets hip pain while on the Nature. It finally went away when she gave up and switched to our old bed in the guestroom.

For me I think it’s from not enough lumbar support. When on the back, my hips sink and the lumbar area sinks as well, causing it to straighten its normal curve, and in turn causing the thoracic spine to mildly hyperextend and resulting in pain. While I’ve read that usually firmer is better for the back, it’s interesting that if I add both toppers for a combined 5", the upper back and hips sink down while the lumbar stays up, and my back feels fine. Someone else posted a similar experience. Sleeping on 5" of topper has other issues though, like feeling like you’re rocking in rubber jello, and on position changes being roused further from sleep.

With either single topper, it feels fantastic for the first few minutes, but gradually there develops an uncomfortable pressure sensation. Maybe the “pushback” others have described, or maybe bottoming out on lower layers. Additionally, the toppers have a relatively consistent ability to compress my nerves. After several minutes on my back, I feel pins and needles down the back of my leg (sciatic nerve compression). On my side I get the same sensation down the outside of my lower leg (peroneal nerve compression). On my side with my arm out I get it down to my hand (partial brachial plexus compression). If I’m on my right side and put my left foot with the inside down, I get there as well (tarsal tunnel compression). Our bodies are designed in a way that these nerves are protected from compression in regular situations by channels formed by adjacent bones and muscles, but it seems that latex has a way of pushing back everywhere, including these areas that otherwise shelter our nerves. I don’t know why only some of us are affected this way, perhaps slight differences in anatomy or body weight distribution relative to a particular latex ILD.[/quote]

While it’s not really possible to “diagnose” mattress comfort issues on a forum with any certainty because there are too many unique unknowns and variables involved that can affect how each person sleeps on a mattress in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, or your Personal preferences) or any “symptoms” they experience … there is more about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here.

There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.

These posts are the “tools” that can help with the analysis, detective work, or trial and error that may be necessary to help you learn your body’s language and “translate” what your body is trying to tell you so you can make the types of changes that have the best chance of reducing or eliminating any “symptoms” you are experiencing.

There is also more about what some people call “pushback” (which is really just another word for resilience) in post #136 here.

If I had to guess based on your comments … I would guess that your mattress in combination with the 3" very soft PLB topper is probably too soft for you and you may do better either just the mattress by itself or the same mattress with a different topper so that your sleeping system has thinner/firmer comfort layers which would be less likely to cause alignment issues over the course of the night (although it may take a little time for your body to adjust to a different sleeping surface than what you are using now).

If your mattress is too soft there are also some suggestions in post #4 here that may be helpful but I would start with removing the topper for a while and see how your sleeping experience changes and then deciding on the next step from there using how the two sleeping systems compare as a frame of reference and “pointer” to the type of changes that may be most helpful.

[quote]I’m tempted by FloBeds, since they have vZones which could provide selectively more lumbar firmness, and I wonder if their upper layers of wool and egg-crate shaped latex help prevent nerve compression. But we’ve already spent so much on our bed that I don’t want to risk a whole new big outlay. Maybe is there a simple way to modify the Nature to work for us, perhaps by adding a firmer foam in the lumbar area? Or maybe try some other toppers like wool or egg-crate?

But I wonder if we are among those for whom latex just doesn’t work. It’s odd that we have to struggle so much to make this bed work, yet we are perfectly fine when we sleep in virtually any hotel room or relative’s guest room. Tempted to just buy the same as the hotels have, and simply buy new every few years. For the amount we’ve already spent we could have bought many years’ worth of regular beds. [/quote]

Flobeds certainly makes some great quality/value mattresses and their vZone is a unique design. You can see some comments about their vZone mattress in post #4 here. Various zoning systems can be very useful and worth considering for people who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to “match” to a mattress, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is also more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here.

Having said that … the only way to know whether any particular zoning system (or any mattress) will be a good “match” for you (whether it is zoned or not) will be based on your own careful testing or personal experience.

There are certainly people who don’t like latex in general or that a certain latex mattress doesn’t work well for them even though other mattresses in the same general category may be a great “match” for them in terms of PPP (and the same would be true for any other type of mattress). The design of a mattress and how well it matches your specific needs and preferences is always more important than the type of materials inside it.

Again … the only way to know for certain whether any particular mattress or combination of layers and components (including a topper) will be a good match for you in terms of PPP will be based on your own personal experience.

I would also be very cautious about hotel mattresses in general because they are generally much lower quality and value than many other similar mattresses that are available to you and they are one of the most common sources of buyers remorse. You can read more about hotel mattresses in general in post #3 here and the posts it links to.

@Geekymom1,

Like the choice between different types or categories of mattresses … the choice between different types and blends of latex is also a preference choice and not a “better/worse” choice and in terms of PPP the specific design of a mattress is always more important than the type of materials or which type or blend of latex is inside it. There are many people that thought they preferred one type of latex over another based on their experiences on only one or a very few mattresses and then have been very surprised that another mattress that used the same materials but had a different design was a good “match” for them in terms of PPP even though it used the same materials and the same type and blend of latex. In most cases overly generic generic comments about one material vs another are rarely accurate when there are so many versions of every type of mattress in the market. I would always keep in mind that your own experiences or preferences may have very little to do with how anyone else will sleep on the same mattress or their own individual needs and preferences.

Phoenix

Thank you Phoenix for your detailed reply. It’s taken me a while to find the time to read through it and all the associated link posts. I particularly liked your discussion of different types of pain issues and their likely underlying causes in your post #2 here.

Regarding reviews, I didn’t mean that in the sense of individual experiences, but rather general research on the topic of latex beds. Our choice of the PLB Nature came about through: 1. We tested latex beds in a local store, checking for comfort and alignment as you described, and thought we came up with the right one. 2. We’ve read about all the positive qualities of latex such as durability, dust-mite resistance, etc. and watched videos like Matt’s about the PLB Nature (https://youtu.be/oPscBX3DM1M). 3. Pete at mattressexpert.com, who seems very sincere and knowledgeable, wrote that with the Nature and Pamper “I never hear a complaint.” 4. Pete recommended the Nature also since it’s on the firm side and we could soften it up later if needed. 5. We have been comfortable in just about any other bed we previously slept in (except for sleeper sofas and some futons), so we didn’t really even think there could be a bed that would be so uncomfortable to us.

I’m going to go ahead and keep testing, but it’s strange and concerning to find that so many people on this site and at whatsthebest-mattress.com describe testing of many combinations of layer ILDs, toppers, covers, zone inserts, etc., over months and even years, and it’s often not clear whether they actually found a good solution in the end.

Do you know if the Nature can be taken apart easily and customized with various ILD configurations? It seems the Nature is basically S/M/XF. I’ve tried it alone and with one or two soft toppers and other experiments. I’m pretty sure my problem is lumbar sag. At this point my back (mid thoracic) is pretty sore and I’m very tired. I’ve done a different experiment each night for weeks. I’m going to take a break and sleep at my mom’s guest room to recover a bit. Next I’ll probably try a thicker pillow and no topper since I have been sleeping with my arm under my usual one and one of your posts indicated that was a sign of too thin a pillow. If that doesn’t work, then maybe a different topper as you suggest. I’ve been testing with 2" and 3" PLB latex toppers. Perhaps time to try a memory foam one? Any particular one you’d recommend?

Hi SleepyDan,

The Nature is generally a good “average” choice for all the reasons you mentioned since it’s not really soft (like the Beautiful) and it’s not really firm (like the Pamper) but not everyone fits the “averages” and not everyone does well on or prefers a latex mattress. It would be unusual for anyone that has sold more than just a few of any particular mattresses to have “never had a complaint” no matter what type of materials or which type of mattress it may be. It would be something like jumping off a 20 story building and saying “so far so good” as you are passing the 3rd floor … because it’s just a matter of time. The law of averages always catches up to everyone sooner or later.

There are many people that “try too hard” to like latex or try to “force” a latex mattress to work and in many cases the options they have available or that they try may not be the ones that could make the mattress “work” for them. In some cases they were successful and in some cases they weren’t (on both forums) but once you go past a certain point then you can also reach a point of diminishing returns no matter what combinations you may try … especially if you haven’t clearly identified “why” the mattress or layering combinations aren’t working for you. There are also some people who just give up out of frustration even though “in theory” there may be some combination of layers that would have ended up working for them because there are just too many possibilities and small increments of change for them to try them all (not to mention the cost that would be involved).

The PLB layers are glued together but it can be done although it’s difficult and may result in some damage to the latex layers (you can see some suggestions for taking apart glued layers in one of the links in the mattress surgery post here).

A better initial suggestion though would be to take a more slow, gradual, and incremental approach and I would sleep on any new combination for at least a few days (or preferably longer) because if you make changes too quickly then your experience on each combination can be an anomaly and you may not be able to identify a “pattern”" in your experience or accurately assess how your experience changed in comparison to the previous combination. In some cases making changes too quickly in and of itself can cause issues because your body doesn’t have enough time to adjust to each new combination.

I don’t know your weight but the PLB toppers are also very soft (in the range of 14 - 15 ILD) and this low an ILD would usually be more suitable for lighter body weights and they may be too soft for your mattress and your body type and you may do better with a higher ILD.

The first step I would take though (once you take a break for a while to let your body recover from all the "experiments you have tried) would be to sleep on just the mattress for a week or two and see how your experience and symptoms change. How your sleeping experience and symptoms change compared to your previous combination (or combinations) is much more useful information and a better reference point than just deciding on whether a particular combination “works” or not because the changes in your experience and symptoms between different combinations can act as a pointer to help you assess whether you are changing things in the right “direction”.

It may also be worth removing the fire barrier that surrounds the latex layers in your mattress since this may make a difference in how well you sleep on just the mattress alone (the fire barrier is quite thick so removing it may help the latex to contour to your body shape more effectively and can soften up the feel of the mattress) and there isn’t any harm in removing it if you can no longer exchange or return the mattress.

The choice between memory foam and latex is more of a preference choice rather than a “better/worse” choice. There is more about the pros and cons of memory foam vs latex in post #2 here but the most reliable way to know which material or topper you tend to prefer would be based on your own testing or personal experience. For some people memory foam may make things worse and for some it may make things better depending on the specifics of the memory foam and latex toppers they are comparing and on their own individual needs and preferences.

The first “rule” of mattress (or topper) shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress or a mattress/topper combination and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or topper or combination of materials and components would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort” or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) or how a mattress or mattress/topper combination will “feel” to you based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or better yet your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

While it’s not possible to make specific suggestions because of all the many variables involved that are unique to each person and your own experience is the only way to know for certain whether any mattress/topper combination will be a good “match” for you in terms of PPP … there is more information about choosing a topper in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to that can help you use your sleeping experience along with the other information I linked as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success. It also includes a link to a list of some of the better online sources for toppers I’m aware of as well.

Choosing a suitable topper that is a good combination for both you and the mattress you are using it on (different mattresses will affect the choice of topper that works best for a particular person) can be almost as challenging as choosing a mattress that doesn’t need a topper in the first place so the exchange/return policy for a topper you purchase can become a more important part of the “value” of a topper purchase just in case a topper you purchase doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for and you need to return it or exchange it for something else that is thicker or thinner or firmer or softer.

Before you start experimenting with different toppers though or start cutting your mattress apart I would work with what is already available to you and if you can provide more specific information about how you sleep on just the mattress by itself and how your “symptoms” change (and you have also confirmed that the foundation you are using isn’t contributing to the issues you are experiencing) then you will be able to use your experience on just the mattress alone as a reference point for comparison to help decide on the next step.

Trying different pillows is also a good idea but as you make mattress changes you may find that you need thinner pillows with softer combinations (because you will sink in more) than with firmer combinations.

Phoenix

After some recovery, I tried again a couple different things. Going with the PLB Nature alone, I have the same problems as before, numbness along the nerve (whichever is down at the time – right or left peroneal when on my side, both sciatic nerves when on my back), plus back pain between the shoulder blades within a few hours of sleeping on it. Adding 2 or 3" latex toppers doesn’t solve the numbness problems. Adding a cheap eggcrate topper does seem to help with that, but the back pain remains. The most tolerable combination I’ve found so far is a 3" 4lb memory foam topper placed on the upside down PLB Nature bed. No more back pain with that, but have to change positions every couple hours when it seems that I bottom it out.

Not sure where to go from here. Very tired of all this. Very tempted to just buy anything that feels comfortable at a local store. Two Beautyrest Recharge models felt great in the store (one all foam and one hybrid). I’ve read in this forum that they could bread down quickly. How quickly? If I have to buy new every 5-6 years that would be ok as long as it was comfortable throughout that time.

Hi SleepyDan,

While neither one of the toppers solved your issues … it would be interesting to know how your symptoms changed (were either better or worse) comparing the mattress by itself and the mattress with the 2" topper and with the 3" topper. Knowing how your sleeping experience changed on these three combinations may be useful as a “pointer”.

At least this is a hopeful sign. Memory foam can be tricky because viscoelastic materials have a property called “creep” which means that it not only responds to pressure, temperature, and humidity, it also “relaxes” or softens more under constant pressure so you may start the night off in good alignment but may be out of alignment (or feel the firmer layers underneath it more) after a few hours or by the time you wake up in the morning. More resilient materials don’t have this same tendency to change over time and respond primarily to compression forces and are more consistent with their firmness/softness over time.

It may be worth experimenting with a thinner memory foam layer (say 2") with a relatively thin but more resilient layer underneath it (you could try your 2" latex topper but I suspect it may be a little bit too soft). It may also be worth considering trying your 2" latex topper over memory foam (either the 3" memory foam topper that you have or a thinner memory foam topper) because adding a topper on top of memory foam can reduce the amount of heat that reaches the memory foam and if the memory foam is more temperature sensitive it can reduce how much the memory foam underneath the topper softens (or at least lengthen the time it takes for the memory foam to soften with your body heat).

If the memory foam topper is working for you … at least for a few hours … it’s also possible that a 3" latex topper that was a little bit firmer may also work for you as well. Unfortunately the only way to know whether any of these suggestions will help will be based on your own personal experience.

It’s impossible to know for certain how long any mattress that uses lower quality/debnsity materials will maintain it’s comfort and support relative to any particular person before foam softening will take you outside the comfort/support range that is suitable for you because there are so many unknowns and variables that can be involved both in terms of the specifics of the mattress and the person sleeping on it.

In some cases it may be as soon as a few months (especially if the mattress is “on the edge” of being too soft when it is new) and in other cases it may be a few years. For those that don’t notice issues more quickly (in the first year) it would be fairly common to see people having issues with their mattress in 3 or 4 years and there are some that are more fortunate that sleep well for longer (possibly because they are less sensitive to foam softening or are more towards the “I can sleep on anything” than the “princess and the pea” end of the range) … but it’s impossible to say for sure.

Phoenix

Another week of testing and bad sleep… Rightside-up PLB Nature + 2" PLB latex topper → not much different. Sink in over time. Feel like lower body sinking more than upper and so upper gets a bit hyperextended, resulting in upper back pain. With 3" topper, similar experience of gradual sinking and development of upper back pain, with added negative of too much bounce – rocking back and forth after each movement. Have nerve compression and tingling with or without the latex toppers as I mentioned before. Not sure there’s much difference 2" vs 3" except maybe how much time I have before it bottoms out. I think latex just doesn’t agree with me.

Flipped Nature upside down and added memory foam topper plus cheap eggcrate pu foam topper. Eggcrate under → got intolerable numbness by 230am. Eggcrate on top of mf–> less numbness but have tossing and turning throughout night, with muscle soreness around shoulder blades and lower rib margin in the morning.

I’ve started using a free app called SleepTime which shows me a graph of when I tossed and turned throughout the night. Wish I started using it sooner. I’m only have a few hours a night of good sleep.
Would be nice to try other firmnesses of latex or maybe Dunlop instead of Talalay, but it’s gotten to be too much. I wish there was a local custom mattress builder to work with, or that I had started with a custom online one.

At this point I’m ready to ditch the $4k latex bed, the two $200-300 latex toppers, and the nearly $200 memory foam topper and start over with a bed that is completely made. A 100 day full money back return policy is important at this point – once burned twice shy. Leaning toward Nest Love Bed or Alexander at the moment, unless you have a different recommendation based on the experiences I’ve had so far. It seems that some of us don’t match up well with latex, or maybe specifically Talalay latex. Would be nice to gather a database of people that have trouble with it (numbness, rubbery pressure, bounce, etc) and whether they ever end up finding something that works well. I like the idea of Helix gathering data and trying to make a custom bed, but wonder how well their algorithms really work. Simplicity seems more appealing at this point. I’ve read through your Bed in a Box discussion and appreciate all the info and summary, though it’s pretty overwhelming to look at. I hope our next try will be on target and that we won’t have to use the refund policy.

Hi SleepyDan,

While it’s possible that you don’t like the resilience or “springiness” of latex (which would be a preference issue) … I would guess that the symptoms you are experiencing are more about the firmness and thickness of the layers in your mattress and topper and the overall design of your “sleeping system” and how well they “match” your body type and sleeping position than about latex itself.

Did you happen to try any of the suggestions in my previous reply?

It’s also possible that your pillow could be contributing to upper body soreness as well (possibly in combination with the thickness and softness of your toppers).

If I was in your shoes I would certainly do a little more experimentation with what you have available before buying another mattress.

I don’t think a database would be particularly helpful because each person’s “solution” would be unique to them and their own specific needs and preferences and there are many people that don’t fit inside the “averages” of other people. A mattress that would be “perfect” for one person may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on … even if they have a similar body type, sleeping style, preferences, and circumstances.

Unfortunately there is no way for me to make specific suggestions or recommendations because the first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort” or PPP or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

If you do well on hotel beds in general then it may be worth considering an innerspring mattress (possibly a pocket coil) that uses good quality comfort layers in an appropriate type, thickness, and firmness because it may be closer to the type of mattress that you are familiar with and that your body is used to.

As you mentioned … if you are uncertain whether a specific mattress will be suitable for you or you aren’t confident that your testing in a showroom will predict your sleeping experience (or you are buying a mattress that you can’t test before a purchase) then the exchange or return options can be one of the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase.

Phoenix

I believe you are probably right about not having the right firmness/thickness (and possibly zoning) latex combination for my body rather than just it being a Talalay latex problem. However, after trying the mattress on its own with the 21 ILD Talalay top layer and then 2" and 3" low ILD latex toppers, each giving me nerve compression symptoms that I don’t get on random other beds, my going assumption has been that latex doesn’t work well for me. Adding other toppers hasn’t worked well enough so far to modify that underlying core.

I think I did try all the suggestions you made that I could do with the materials I had. Trying out different thicknesses and densities is not possible for me without going to mail order with more expense and time packing and shipping back and forth. I wish we had a convenient local place to buy and return them. Trying the 2" latex topper underneath the 3" memory foam one (on top of the upside down mattress) caused me to sink down relatively quickly while on my back, especially in the pelvis area. This was followed by development of back pain just below the rib level as well as tingling down the legs. Switching them so the latex was on top was ok at first and didn’t bottom out, but later I woke up at 5am with muscle soreness around the shoulder blades. I did also try a couple different pillows, but no real change in the major issues of lots of tossing and turning, nerve compression in the legs, and muscle soreness in the mid to upper back.

I’m not certain if there’s anything left for me to try at this point with the toppers and mattress I have. Please let me know if I’ve overlooked something. To try some other foam thickness or firmness I’d have to order by mail. It seems that ordering a new “bed in a box” would be just as easy and fast, and perhaps more likely to be successful at this point. Returning a foam layer to Foam By Mail incurs shipping costs in both directions. Returning a mattress to Nest or others is free.

In your tutorial you emphasize the importance of personal testing. We’ve done it in a couple of local stores, including one on your recommended list. This is where we came up with the idea that the Nature was going to work great for us. Unfortunately lining up well and feeling great in the store didn’t translate well to how it felt after several hours. As I’ve described, I’ve done lots of variations at home testing as well.

I’d certainly be up for trying a spring mattress with with quality comfort layers. However, I’m not sure any local stores sell any that have quality comfort layers. They all seem to have the S companies or some questionable brand that no one else sells. Also, in-home overnight testing and fully refundable returns have become a priority.

Hi SleepyDan,

It certainly seems that you are “outside the averages” because one of the combinations you have tried would most likely work well for a very wide range of body types and sleeping styles … but of course they aren’t working well for you.

I did a quick review of the topic to see if I could pick up on any clues that would be helpful and there were a couple of things that may be relevant.

This was an interesting comment since it seems you do well with 5" of ultra plush latex on top of the comfort layers in the nature (2" of 21 ILD and 2" 28 ILD) which would be much softer layering than most people would normally do well with. It also seems to contradict some of your other experiences which indicate that many of the combinations you have tried are too soft (for example doing well with the 3" of memory foam on the bottom of your mattress … at least for a while ,… which would be firmer overall than using both topper on the softer side of your mattress). It’s possible that with the softer top layers you are sinking in more deeply which may be allowing the latex to “fill in” and support the recessed parts of your sleeping profile more effectively (what I call secondary support) and that the only issue with this configuration is that you don’t like the jiggly “feel” but you have no actual symptoms of pain or discomfort. In other words it seems to be a good match in terms of the first two “P’s” which are Posture and alignment and Pressure relief but that it’s not as good a match in terms of your preferences (too jiggly). Is this accurate?

With this feedback it may be worth trying the 2" latex topper on top of the 3" of memory foam on the softer side of your mattress. This would still give you 5" of softer toppers and would lessen the “jiggly” feel that comes from having 5" of softer latex on top of your mattress. Have you tried this combination?

You did try this combination on the bottom of your mattress and it appears that this may have been too soft (which is somewhat contradictory to your experience with an even softer combination using both latex toppers on the softer side of your mattress working well) but given your feedback I would probably try it anyway.

I would also try removing the fire barrier in your mattress which may help with the ability of the latex to contour to the shape of your body and could improve secondary support and may also work with either your 2" or 3" latex topper (on the softer side of your mattress). This may also be worth trying with your memory foam topper.

Some of the suggestions in post #4 here may also be helpful … particularly about trying your mattress on the floor to see if this makes any difference just in case some of the issues you are experiencing are the result of a support system that is sagging or not providing suitable support under your mattress.

Since some or all of these “symptoms” seem to have shown up after several minutes on the mattress it’s quite likely that careful testing in a showroom would have brought them to light as well (spending at least 15 minutes with all your muscles fully relaxed on a mattress). It’s also the resistance of a material and the amount of surface area that is bearing weight and redistributing compression forces that causes pressure issues (not pushback) because when your body is at rest there is no direction to the compression forces (the resistance forces equal the compressive forces regardless of the resilience of the material). For example you could have pressure issues on a floor which has no “pushback” at all … only resistance .

Having said that … latex is very flexible and elastic and can compress in many directions not just vertically and it’s possible that shear forces (forces that are parallel to a body surface rather than vertical to a body surface) could be part of the issue and it’s possible that a more “relaxed” and less resilient topper may work better for you. Memory foam would be an example of this and a fiberbed something like this or like this may also be worth trying (especially if it can be returned). A shredded latex topper can also be very helpful because it can also “flow around” your bony protrusions and pressure points rather than just compressing underneath them but of course this would also involve an added expense and at this point I certainly understand your reluctance to do so.

If you test a mattress very carefully and “objectively” (and hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial) and you are testing for more than the more subjective “comfort” or the “showroom feel” of a mattress then in “most” cases and for “most” people it would end up being “close enough” to your actual sleeping experience that only relatively minor find tuning may be necessary if anything is necessary at all (see post #4 here). Of course nothing is infallible and there will always be a smaller percentage of people that have have some history of having difficulty in finding a mattress that “works” or have more challenging circumstances (such as health or back issues or an unusual body type) where the odds of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for would be higher and in these cases the return or exchange policy can be a much more important part of the value of a mattress purchase.

If you let me know your city or zip code I’d be happy to let you know about any of the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in your area.

There are many people who also do well on a latex/innerspring hybrid (see post #13 here) and some of the better innerspring/latex options I’m aware of (including a few component mattresses) are listed in post #2 here and the post it links to but you would need to check their websites or call them to see if any of them have a dealer close to you if you wish to test them in person.

Phoenix

The combined 5" of latex toppers was problematic in the rocking sensation, but also the depth of the pit created if I recall correctly. It’s been a while since I tried that combo. I can try again, but have a sore back from the last combo I tried the past couple of nights, rightside-up mattress with 2" latex topper plus thin contoured pu foam. The contoured foam seems to solve my nerve compression issues for the most part, no matter what it’s on top of.

I’ll try the combination of rightside up mattress plus memory foam and then 2" latex tonight. I suspect I’ll have to add the pu foam on that as well to avoid nerve symptoms. Haven’t tried removing the fire barrier yet. Gets pretty exhausting trying failing combinations.

Regarding testing on the floor, that is where I’ve had the bed most of the time. Recently moved it back onto the foundation since my wife was tired of having it in the way for so long. Odd that we received two different PLB foundations with our two TwinXL mattresses, one slatted and one flat. Have not tested one vs the other I think. Floor vs slatted did not seem to make any real difference.

Regarding our showroom experience, I don’t recall any nerve compression issues. It’s likely that we weren’t on the mattresses long enough. We were mainly looking for postural assessments / even weight distribution under the guidance of the shop owner.

Regarding compression and resistance, I also think the discomfort comes from elastic forces that are not just vertical but rather horizontal in the case of latex rubber, as opposed to something like individually pocketed springs that would just be vertical. Or shear forces as you mention. The convoluted topper seems to significantly ameliorate this issue.

Considering that most of the pain I’m encountering is around the shoulder blades, especially on nights that I’ve had a lot of tossing and turning, I suspect that much of it is coming from bottoming out over time, down to the firm lower layers. The extreme combined 5" of latex toppers managed to avoid the bottoming out, but had the other issues. If I have the energy reserves I may try this again soon.

The fiberbed you mention looks interesting, but unless one is sold by someplace with a full refund policy, I can’t risk it. Hybrid beds sound like a great idea too. As I mentioned before, we liked a Simmons hybrid in the showroom, but didn’t buy it over longevity of materials concerns. We live in Sarasota, Florida if you have recommendations for us, but I think there is noone with a full refund policy like some of the online sellers have.

I’ll keep testing, but may also go ahead and order something from an online shop since they have full money back policies.

Hi SleepDan,

I don’t think there is much I can add to my previous replies about different options or combinations that may be worth trying but I’ll make a few comments as food for thought.

There have been some issues with some of the PLB foundations that don’t provide suitable support under an all latex mattress and there are some retailers that suggest alternative foundations with the PLB mattresses. Of course if you don’t feel any difference between the foundation and the floor then it would be a moot point but it’s something that I would keep in mind.

Pocket coils are usually deeper in the mattress (unless a mattress has a microcoil comfort layer) so they wouldn’t affect the feel and response or the shear forces of the sleeping surface as much as the layers and components on top of the coil but pocket coils aren’t connected with helical wire to the coils beside them so they can compress vertically as well as bend horizontally and they respond in multiple directions … not just up and down.

Amazon has a good return policy.

I would certainly avoid all the major brands such as Simmons, Sealy, and Serta because of the lower quality and less durable materials they generally use in their mattresses.

The better options or possibilities I’m aware of in and around the Sarasota area (subject to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines here) are listed in post #5 here.

Phoenix