please help me design a mattress and source the latex for it

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hi ! my only experience in these do-it-yourself bedding matters is when about 2 years ago i converted a broken folding bed into a much more comfortable, non-folding bed by throwing out broken springs and replacing them with some plywood and foam. that went VERY WELL but it wasnā€™t a very ambitious project - about $150 total budget.

This time around i am building a bed FOR MY OWN USE, i am starting FROM SCRATCH ( not retrofitting an old bed, or upgrading an old mattress etc ) and i am willing to pay for talalay and / or memory foam if thatā€™s what it takes to achieve my objectives.

Yesterday i spent about an hour at Sleepyā€™s testing different types of mattresses. I already knew what to expect from spring and memory foam but i wanted to try the latex.

They only had one latex mattress - it was 8 inches total, consisting of 6" latex base with 2 inches of memory foam on top. The mattress was ridiculously firm, even so, i came away feeling that latex is the way to go - because out of all the mattresses it providing the most support while still being comfortable. My logic is - itā€™s easy to provide comfort at the expense of support, or support at the expense of comfort - and it is the technology that can do BOTH at the same time that i want to work with - and to me latex seemed to be doing that.

That said, i know that latex mattresses are often too firm, and in case of one i tried it was WAY too firm. My hope is to be able to combine the pain relief of top-of-the-line tempurpedic with the support of latex - i donā€™t know if this is possible but i will try.

I am 31 years old male, 5ā€™10", 230 lbs with shoulder injuries, and my current bed ( which is just 3.5" of foam over some wooden bars ) is giving me back pain any position except on the back.

Tentatively what i want to build is a mattress that is about 14" thick, all-foam, with approximately 5 inches of talalay in the middle, approximately 3 inches of memory foam on top and approximately 6 inches of high density PU foam on the bottom as base. my goal is maximum pain relief for shoulders and back while also providing enough support for me to be able to toss and turn as well as just simply watch TV from the bed while sitting up or laying on the side etc.

I found that with tempurpedic it is hard to toss and turn due to getting stuck in the memory foam, and i found that with spring mattress it is hard to sit up to watch TV because of the wobbly unstable nature of it. at the same time i find tempurpedic amazing for relieving the pressure from my shoulder when laying on the side. so as i said, i want at the same time such mutually exclusive things as pain relief, support and stability.

now the PROBLEM i am having is i canā€™t find talalay in low enough ILD ( i want about 20 ) and high enough thickness at the same time. i saw soft talalay in only 3" thick topper and a thick 6" one in only 29 ILD which is already on the firm side i think.

iā€™m also afraid to buy memory foam because of smell issue. Amazon has reviews but they only sell thin and soft toppers - i want a thick heavy layer like in tempurpedic.

i also want to avoid chemicals as much as possible - i donā€™t want anything made in china as they tend to make stinky stuff full of carcinogens ( in my experience ), especially the memory foam absolutely must be NOT from china. as for talalay i would prefer completely natural, again, because i donā€™t want it producing toxic dust.

please critique my design ( tentatively about 3" of 5 lb memory foam / 5 inches of 20 ILD talalay / 6 inches of 3lb 35 ild PU foam ) and please tell me a good place to order the talalay and the memory foam.

i would like to get the talalay as close to the surface of the mattress as possible ( for better support and less chemicals ) but without compromising the pressure and pain relief properties of the mattress as a whole.

as for regular high density PU foam for the base, i have previously ordered the regular foam ( 2.8 lbs 50 ILD ) from foamforyou.com and i was very happy with their foam, but their sheet sizes donā€™t really work for me. i need TWIN XL ( 39" x 80" ) and their sheet is 36 inches wide. so if you can suggest a source of foam for the base - i will appreciate that as well.

ps: i would like to keep the cost down but not at the expense of any serious compromises.

thanks in advance ! any input is appreciated !

2

a related question - is it possible to source memory foam of the same quality as used in top of the line tempurpedics ? as far as i remember they use 7lb foam but i can only find 5lb foam for sale.

when they gave me a memory foam topper to try in Sleepyā€™s it was like a joke - actually they gave me 2 different ones and both were equally bad - they were just like marshmallow - no support or substance AT ALL. by contrast the tempurpedic IS supportive but at the same time super smooth - in my estimate tempurpedic is able to achieve this with the 7lb density while the topper i tried was probably 3lb density or so.

finally - is there anything wrong with putting memory foam over latex ? i came across advice saying that to get full benefit of latex it shouldnā€™t be covered with anything, but i am skeptical if i can get the level of softness, pressure and pain relief that i am after without memory foam ā€¦

finally, how thick should the regular PU foam base of the mattress be ? the type of foam used for the base is cheap, so i could use quite a bit of it, but is there any benefit to pushing overall thickness of the mattress past 14" or so by making the base taller ? also, since my mattress would only be 39" wide, could making the mattress too tall make it somehow unstable ? whatā€™s the overall height do you think i should be going for ? could i end up making the bed LESS comfortable by using a thicker base ?

3

Hi g1981c,

I would suggest reading post #15 here before you take on the challenge of becoming your own mattress designer. Without the knowledge and the skill of knowing what you are doing this can become an expensive lesson either in the cost of materials or in the cost of sleep.

Unfortunately there is no ā€œformulaā€ that can take height and weight measurements and turn them into a mattress design and it would take much more detailed conversations on a phone call for me and some clear reference points of mattress you have tested to even begin to make any specific suggestions but I would suggest reading all the pages in the mattresses section of the site which contains a lot of information about different body types, sleeping styles, and different designs and how each one works.

I certainly donā€™t mind making generic comments about certain ideas or suggestions about changes or fine tuning on a specific design if you have tested it or slept on a particular mattress in person and are having some ā€œsymptomsā€ but designing mattress for forum members based on ā€œtheory at a distanceā€ out of all the thousands of combinations that are theoretically available is not something I have the time for and is outside the scope of the forum ā€¦ even if it was possible.

The best way to design your own mattress would be to ā€œduplicateā€ a mattress that works for you based on your own personal testing which is much more accurate than any ā€˜theory at a distance". As you test finer details of different layering you will also start to develop a sense of how different layering combinations will work for you and begin to be able to develop the skill to predict how unknown layers will work for you a little more accurately. It takes time to gain enough experience though to have real confidence that your choices will work well if you are creating a "non standardā€™ design.

if you do decide to go in this direction ā€¦ post #4 here has a list of some of the better suppliers Iā€™m aware of for all the different types of materials that you will likely need.

A few quick comments ā€¦

No ā€¦ this is a preference and many people prefer thin layers of memory foam over latex compared to thicker layers of memory foam alone (I actually like latex over a thin layer of memory foam even better).

The balance between comfort and support (which are opposites in many ways because comfort needs to 'allow" sinking in while support is more about ā€œstoppingā€ compression) and how it relates to the ā€œfeelā€ of a mattress as well as different body types, sleeping positions, and different preferences is the basis for the art and science of mattress theory and design and there are many who have been building mattresses for decades who are still learning about better ways to accomplish this.

This sounds like a reasonable design in general terms but of course the success of the design (or any design) will be deciding on the smaller details (firmness and density of memory foam and type and firmness of the latex and whether it is one firmness or multiple firmness levels). It will take some good testing and perhaps some trial and error to get there.

Iā€™m not so sure I would be going with this low an ILD in thicker layers under memory foam but you should have no problem finding them on the list I linked to. This would be very risky with your weight IMO.

I would bear in mind that the all natural is not as durable as the blended in lower ILDā€™s and both are equally ā€œsafeā€ and have been Oeko-Tex tested to the same standards.

Any latex would have less issues with toxic ingredients and VOCā€™s than any memory foam or polyfoam so if blended Talalay was an issue in terms of safety then I also wouldnā€™t use any polyfoam or memory foam at all in your mattress because they are both more ā€œproblematicā€ than blended Talalay.

Hope this helps ā€¦ at least a little ā€¦ but I would stress once again that this is I not a project I would take on lightly or with the expectation that it will save you a lot if you end up replacing some layers that donā€™t work ā€¦ particularly considering that you are already leaning towards some fairly ā€œriskyā€ layering.

Phoenix

4

thanks Phoenix !

thatā€™s a lot of information ! itā€™s going to take me a while to get through your links, but itā€™s all very interesting.

thanks again !

5

ok then, Phoenix, how does this look:

15" profile.

3" 21 ILD rejuvenite celsion talalay gl slow recovery ( source to be determined )

3" 24 ILD natural talalay ( source to be determined )

3" 28 ILD blended talalay ( source to be determined )

3" 40 ILD 3.0 LB HR ( foamonline.com // you recommended this site )

3" 60 ILD 2.8 LB HD ( foamforyou.com // i have previously used this site )

i know nobody can say whether it will work for me or not - i just want to know if you think this looks logical IN GENERAL ?

but just in case, as a reference point, i took two pics of my body type and attached them. once again - iā€™m 5.10" and 230 lbs.

6

Hi g1981c,

My overall impression is that this would be a very soft and risky construction for you. 9" of soft (for your weight) latex in the upper half of the mattress seems excessive.

Phoenix

7

Really a lot of layers here. I would agree with Phoenix that the construction is going to be tricky. My impression from reading your construction idea is that you have the right ideas but your making things a little too complex for your own good.

Why use 2 different 3" PU foam layers on the bottom? I highly doubt you will feel any difference between those two firmnesses so far down. Why not change that to a single 4" layer.

With the natural and blended talalay, I would also suggest that you combine these layers. The difference in firmness I think is going to be pretty negligible between those layers when covered by another three inch layer. I would look for a 5 or 6 inch latex core to stick in there instead. Personally I would consider using dunlop foam for this layer.

I donā€™t know too much about celsion, so maybe someone can correct me but Iā€™m not sure that its really the right choice if you want something natural. I would assume it is mostly synthetic and is pumped with chemicals that give it the slow reaction feel.