Might you be able to shine a light on this confusion about ILDs. I don’t get why people rate and list ILDs in such different ways. The ranges I used for ILD’s in my example are from KTT enterprise who ( I’m sure you know this) is run by Nancy Coffey who is apparently the daughter-in-law to Bill Coffey who started Latex International. All of KTT Enterprises latex is Latex International and KTT lists their latex in these ranges that I used and Valerie from mattresses247 also lists all her latex in ranges and declared to me that all latex comes in ranges and it’s practically dishonest to rate latex using one number. Frustrating to say the least… KTT also use the n1,n2,n3… they say that n1 (softest rating for natural latexy) is the same as a 14-19ILD topper. Again, i’m confused here, because Latex International toppers come in either a 14ild or a 19ild, so how can KTT enterprise have a single topper that comes in a range that encompasses two different toppers?
*** In my previous post I listed a 2" Layer of 21-25ild, but KTT actually list there as 20-24ild.
Moving on, I get what you are saying about feel and everything, and even what I’m about to elaborate on now would be quite subjective as well, but what my main question was-- is whether or not going from 30ild core to a 14-19ild comfort layer is, atleast theoretically, a nonsensical and flawed design. I get that it’s possible that I could be a unique case whereby this makes sense for me to sleep on this design, but is this something that most manufacturers would not build themselves and would not recommend to others without a transition layer? Restating the question: Is there a rule of thumb about how big of a gap in ILD’s is too big? Is 30ild to 14ild transition breaking that rule and committing a design flaw that most would not suggest or build. Similar to how most would not/should not build a 12" all memory foam mattress )although I was sleeping on 6" total memory foam on top of convoluted foam which worked for me).
Edit: I read your article about Putting the Layers Together and that kind of helps.
Edit 2: I also am contacting KTT of course, to find out why their latex comes in such a range of 14-19ild, a range that actually encompasses two seperate Latex International toppers
You can see some comments about latex ILD’s in post #6 here. When you see single ILD numbers they are usually just the midpoint of a range or in the case of LI blended Talalay because that’s how the manufacturer describes or “rates” them even though they aren’t exact.
I think the page on the KTT site that may be confusing you is this page which lists the ILD ranges for the different firmness levels of 100% natural Talalay which are listed as N1, N2, N3, N4, and N5 instead of a specific ILD like blended Talalay.
I would also keep in mind that ILD is also only one of several specs that makes one material feel softer or firmer than another (see post #4 here) and the ILD of different materials or different types and blends of latex also aren’t directly comparable to each other so putting too much focus on ILD alone can often be more misleading than helpful.
The comments in post #26 here would also be worth reading as well.
There isn’t any rule of thumb no and it wouldn’t be a “flawed” design. Some manufacturers would build a mattress like this and it would work well for some people and it wouldn’t work nearly as well for others. What you are really talking about is the difference between what I call a differential construction and a progressive construction (see this article). For example the Pure Latex Bliss uses a 2" layer of 21 ILD on top of a 6" core of 36 ILD. With a design like this you would certainly feel more of the firmness of the support core “through” the thinner and softer comfort layer and larger body types would probably notice more of the difference and transition between the layers than lighter body types who don’t sink into the mattress as deeply.
If you are attracted to the idea of designing and building your own mattress out of separate components and a separate cover then the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. While it can certainly be a rewarding project … the best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).
If you decide to take on the challenge then I would either use the specs (if they are available) of a mattress that you have tested and confirmed are a good match for you in terms of PPP as a reference point (the same type and blend of latex in the same thickness and firmness levels and a very similar cover which can also make a significant difference to the feel and performance of a mattress) or use a “bottom up” approach (see post #2 here).
Thanks for helping to make things make sense once more. Yes I’m very open to experimenting and exploring and learning more and more about how to construct and design a mattress that will best suit me. And I’ve read almost everything you wrote under the “mattresses sleeping on a cloud” section which is my favorite section of this site I must say. I’m not sure everyone knows it’s there, but it’s extremely useful. I know you go into dunlap vs latex in the forums, but perhaps that could be placed in the “mattresses” section as well as it’s just briefly mentioned there? Just a thought. I don’t actually need it myself cause I found it all in the forums but others may find it useful. I loved reading about the progressive layering which I wish I knew about earlier because I would’ve snatched a thinner memory foam topper to experiment with that, but as of now I have a 3" topper which probably won’t allow someone of my weight to sink through enough to get much synergy from the layers. I did think to myself though, that perhaps this is the logic in Beloit Mattresse’s Hybrid Beds which only use 1" of gel foam on 1" latex on top of Legget and Platt Comfort Core/Marshall coils. I asked them to make me a bed with 3" of memory foam on top and they advised that they’d be happy to do so but also advised that it would actually take away from the overall feel of the comfort layer+ coil design. Anyway I ended up going with latex because I stumbled upon a Rejuvenite pillow for 30 bucks and fell in love with latex. Back on track…
I’ll keep reading here as much as I can and keep experimenting with actual sleep systems and see what I come up with. I think my next line of questioning should be about covers as I’m a huge fan of minimalism when it comes to covers and protectors. As a fan of specialty foams I like being as close to the contouring foam as possible. Right now I’m really considering ONLY using a protector over my latex layers and a sheet. There are no zipper covers I find that I actually think will do what I want (I haven’t looked that hard). The wool ones, although I love the idea and the absorbency and temperature regulation, usually seem too thick and I don’t like quilted designs or how they might compact and form a barrier to the contouring foam. Same reason I’ll probably skip the St. Dormier even though the wool benefits sound amazing. The best sleep I’ve had on my memory foam have been when I stopped using the cover completely. Now I use instead, a “topper cover” that came with the MemGel topper which wraps around the whole mattress except the bottom very much like the Suite Sleep protector. It’s so soft. and comfortable… and does not get in the way in terms of feel at all. like mattress covers always do. I think it’s listed as some kind of stretch-knight polyster blend or something but really feels quite luxurious for some reason. So instead of using a cover for my latex, I was thinking about maybe adding another protector like the Suite Sleep or the Cozy Pure on top of it-- so using two protectors instead of a cover. Does that sound like a “bad idea”-- people always talk about latex degrading, flaking, needing protection…but two protectors plus a sheet really should be able to keep my latex as “safe” as a cover do you think? I just really detest how obstructive covers are (for me). The only cover I ever felt I liked was ones with memory foam quilted in which is probably not what I want with a latex set up. Are there any zipper covers you can think of that may fit the bill for what I like?
This is already in the planning stages. When I first developed the site most of the articles in the main menu items (in the industry, mattresses, and articles section) were the first ones I wrote and the primary source of information on the site because the forum was still brand new and had few posts but over the years my goal was to include more detailed replies in the forum that would become “reference posts” and there are now several hundred reference posts that I link to in the forum in addition to the articles in the main menu.
Now that the site upgrades are complete it will allow me to add some additional features over the next year or so and one of these is amalgamating all the reference posts in the forum with the articles in the main menu and putting them all into a single categorized research center so they will all be in one place and easy to navigate and scan for information and answers to most people’s more common questions without me needing to link to specific articles or forum posts as much as I currently do. I’ve been working on some of the planned new features for almost 2 years and it will still take some time (months) before the research center is launched because it involves amalgamating, rewriting, updating, and in some cases simplifying many of the articles and reference posts (some of which are somewhat redundant) but the system is now in place that will make it possible (along with some of the other additions that have been in the planning stages for some time as well).
I wish I had more time, fingers, and an extra brain to be able to do all of this more quickly but larger projects like this always take more time more time than I wish they would when you are only a single person and there are only so many hours in a day
I would agree with this because the thinner top two layers along with the initial compression of the marshall coil would all work together to provide the pressure relief and “feel” of the mattress.
There is more about knit covers that are more stretchy and contouring vs different types of quilted covers in post #12 here and the posts it links to. The component post here also includes the better sources for covers I’m aware of and post #4 here includes a list of the thinner more stretchy knit covers.
It doesn’t sound like a “bad” idea no but the effect on the latex would really depend on how much air (or other substances) that can degrade latex faster reaches the latex over time which is difficult to predict without specific testing. These types of questions would normally be more about “how much” the effect would be (rather than whether it will have any effect at all) and are very difficult to quantify. There is more about the effects of different covers that can give you some idea of how they can affect the latex in the links in my previous reply here.
in one of your post you mention
“In the thinner wool layers that are generally found in a mattress quilting and if it is quilted to a stretch knit cover … then a wool quilted cover will have less effect on the latex but it can still slightly reduce the feel and compression of the latex underneath it to some degree and slightly reduce the ability of softer latex to contour to the body. With mattress covers that are less stretchy then the wool quilted cover will have a larger effect on the feel of the latex below it.”
What are some examples of stretchy covers that also have wool? I’ve been looking everywhere and although I’ve probably already come across some, I probably didn’t identify them as being a stretch knit cover that had wool quilted. I like the idea and wool with temperature control, but on the opposite end contouring and feeling the layers is also immensely important and this sounds like a good middle ground.
If I can’t find a good stretchy cover that also has wool, I’m going to go with a stretch knit cover of some sort, and then add the wool in the form of the mattress pad/protector, which makes the most sense to me anyway. Because if you have a cover that has wool, and then add a pad or protector what’s the point in having the wool in the cover. So if I go this route, I’m mainly looking at 3 possible wool/cotton pads…Natura, St. Dormier, and My Organic Textiles- Wool Mattress Pad
So there is a thread I saw where you and Dhalia are talking about the Natura Wool comforter and she actually concludes that it interfered too much with the layers so she went with a cotton stretch knit protector rather than an actual “pad” (I hope that’s not how I end up)-- anyway, my question is: Would the Natura or the St. Dormier, going off of what we know, interfere more with the feel of the latex? I understand I’m asking you to speculate with me. Dhalia mentioned the Dormier was more obstructive, but that seemed unusual to me since the Natura used more wool from what I read. 10 oz vs 7.5oz. As a general principle, does MORE wool tend to equal MORE interference/firmness or no? The third pad, which is also listed on Amazon , apparently uses even MORE wool at 13.5oz, but if more wool doesn’t necessarly mean MORE interference with the latex then this is a possible pad for me to try. It’s priced very competitively considering it uses organic cotton where as the others do not. . One verified purchaser responded to my question on Amazon saying it’s only 1/2 an inch thick, which again is a bit confusing, because the Natura, which uses less wool, is listed as being 1" thick. How thick is the St. Dormier?
So I guess I’m just asking for help in trying to predict which of these three will interefere and firm up the mattress the least.
Most manufacturers are always on the lookout for ways to improve the quality, value, or performance of their mattresses (including their covers) and are constantly testing different components so they will change what they use from time to time as they discover better materials or components if they believe it will improve their mattresses. I can provide generic information about what to look for but with these types of specifics a conversation with each of the manufacturers you are considering would be a much better source of information about the more detailed specifics of the covers they are currently using than I am.
thanks for feedback. im just going to bump because i posted a previous post at the exact same time as you pretty much which means my post may be over looked. it’s about pads.
I’m glad you let me know you posted while I was writing my reply … I probably would have missed it.
I’m guessing you mean one of the Natura mattress pads or the Naturaprotect mattress protector rather than a wool comforter.
I own a NaturaProtect which has 10 oz/yd of wool (which I think is similar to the one that Dahlia was talking about) which is quite thick and it also has a woven cotton sateen cover that doesn’t stretch. It has a noticeable effect on the contouring of the mattress underneath it. The St Dormier has 5.5 oz /yd (not 7.5) and has a terry cover which is probably a little more stretchy and based on my own experience with the Natura and conversations and feedback from people that have used the St Dormeir I think that the St Dormier would have the clear edge as far as how much it affected the contouring of any latex layers underneath it.
While it will depend on how the wool is compressed or quilted in the mattress pad or mattress protector … as a general rule of thumb (all else being equal) more wool will have a bigger effect than less wool.
Hey what do you think about laying in 2" layers rather than three. Everyone does 3" normally. I’m 5’ 6" 150lbs.
If I were to imitate the beautiful by plb in 2" layers instead would I be way off the mark?
Something like
2" 36
2" 28
2" 19
Maybe finish with a topper 2 or 3" 14ild.
Regardless of the beautiful, you se anything problematic with 2" layering?
Outside of the greater possibility of layer shifting with more and thinner layers … I don’t see anything inherently wrong with 2" layers no. It would certainly provide you with more options to rearrange or exchange the layers after a purchase (see post #2 here) although having that many options can become so complex that it can lead to paralysis by analysis or information overload. There is also more about the pros and cons of using multiple layers in a support core vs a single layer in post #2 here.
It would be very difficult to duplicate the Beautiful with 2" layers because both of the top layers in the Beautiful are 3" and layer thickness can make just as big a difference as layer firmness.
You can see the specifics of our mattress in post #4 here but I would keep in mind that what works for either or both of us may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on.
So if you were to try the approximate the Beautiful with only 9" of latex total, how would you try to accomplish this?
I was thinking:
4" core of 36 or 32 ild, or maybe 2" of each for the core
2" of 24ILD “transition” layer
3" 14 ILD
OR
3" 36
3" 24
3" 14
I’m not sure why I’m tied to this idea that the core has to be atleast 4", perhaps it’s because I’m use to the notion that the core is almost always thicker than the comfort layer and so a 4" core would fit the bill because it would obviously be thicker than the 3" topper. If these thicker cores are mainly just for coesmetic /appearance only though, then I think it’d make more sense to go with the 3/3/3 build?
I probably wouldn’t try to approximate the Beautiful if I only had 9" of latex to work with or at least my expectations of success would be relatively low. I would personally focus more on building a mattress that was a good match for me in terms of PPP rather than a good match for another mattress which may turn out not to be the best choice for you anyway. I would also “expect” that my first combination would probably need some fine tuning so I would treat the initial combination as just one step in the process.
If I wanted to “try” anyway I would probably start with using the same layers as the top 9" of the Beautiful (3" of 15 ILD Talalay GL fast response, 3" of 24 ILD blended Talalay, and 3" of 36 ILD blended Talalay) with a knit cover although it would be difficult to duplicate the effect of their fire barrier which would have a significant effect on the feel and performance of the mattress. Once I had slept on this combination for a while (a minimum of a week or two) then I would use my experience on the mattress as a reference point to help me decide on the type of changes to make to “fine tune” the mattress and bring it closer to my design goals (which again if it was me would be the best “match” in terms of PPP rather than trying to match the Beautiful).
So I’m looking at bedgear brand protectors. Specifically the stretchwick and the dritec 5.0 depending on which gives least effect on feel. Do you know anything about this brand? They are one of those “performance sheet” type brand. I don’t know how much these performance fabrics would affect feel or breathability I’m also going to call them. http://www.bedgear.com/shop/protectors/mattress-protectors.html
I don’t have any personal experience with the protectors you mentioned so I wouldn’t be the best source of information about either of them regarding how they feel or perform other than saying they are both in the “thin membrane” category of mattress protectors that are discussed in post #89 here.
In talalay does does either natural or synthetic have an obviously more resilient feel that pushes back more or less? Or is it mainly ild that affects pushback?
There is more about the differences between blended Talalay and all natural Talalay in post #2 here. In an apples to apples comparison (where all the layers were the same ILD) most people wouldn’t feel any difference in a single layer but some people would feel a difference if a whole mattress was made of one vs the other (although many still wouldn’t).
“Pushback is somewhat of a misnomer because when you are lying on a mattress all the downward and upward forces are in equilibrium and there isn’t a “direction” of the forces involved (your body “pushing down” or the material “pushing up”). The resistance of a material is a combination of the ILD which measures the force it takes to compress a 6” latex core by 25% of its thickness (or 1.5" ) and compression modulus which measures how much firmer the material becomes with deeper compression after that (between 25% compression and 65% compression which is 3.9") but with foam materials the compression curve isn’t linear and is in more of a banana shape (see here).
What you actually “feel” when you are lying still on a mattress is the varying pressure against different parts of your body (which us usually measured in hhmg).
Latex is also very resilient (which is measured by dropping a steel ball on a material and measuring how high it bounces) and this is also connected to the feeling of “pushback” that some people describe. Materials that have more resilience store more of the energy of compression and less of the compression forces are absorbed (called hysteresis) but you can only feel resilience when you move on a mattress (vs lying still) and feel the “bounce” or “spring” of the material. Steel springs for example are the most resilient mattress component because they absorb less of the energy of compression and “store” more of the compression forces than foam materials (including latex).
Ok that did help. Can you elaborate some on what you mean when you say natural is more elastic (its more stretchy or what is meant by elastic) has more of the properties that latex is sought after for. I think you said that in one of your articles. I’m at work so can’t get all the info I want to as I kind of have to rush or else I’d quote exactly what you said so sorry if I’m misquoting you.
