I purchased a mattress from a local manufacturer which consists of a 6" Dunlap core with a 1" conventional polyurethane comfort layer that quickly degraded. I am not sure of the IDL of this mattress but it has become to firm for us and does not contour well to our bodies and has created some pressure points. We are trying to determine whether to consider a new mattress purchase with Talalay or continue to use the Dunlap and buy a PLB Talalay topper for it. At $500 for the topper, we just aren’t sure which way to go.
Hi Frustrated Mattress Shopper,
The answer somewhat depends on what you want, and how well you can assemble a mattress that is suitable for yourself. If you’ve not already, you might want to read the introductory post, where Phoenix outlines how to find a mattress suitable for yourself.
Assuming its 6" of firm dunlop latex, it would be common to see anywhere between 3-6" of medium and soft latex on top. That said, given that it only had 1" of poly foam, it was likely either pretty firm to begin with, or, the Dunlop is soft enough to provide some comfort itself. In any event, your goal to reuse it would be to end up with a mattress that accomplishes the PPP outlined in the above post (posture, pressure relief, and preferences).
If you want a new mattress, with less experimentation with toppers, then shopping for a new mattress is a good alternative. A full talalay mattress certainly won’t be less expensive than a single layer in a topper. The risk of going with toppers is you are somewhat attempting to build your own mattress, and there’s likely going to be some trial and error involved (I.e. You can’t try it easily in a retail store first).
If you do decide to put a topper on it, you really just want to use just enough of a topper to accomplish the best feel. Using too thick and soft a topper can cause you to go from having too firm a mattress with pressure pain, to too soft a mattress causing your back to come out of alignment and causing pain from that.
… It’s really a preference thing as to how you’d like to proceed.
It’s noteworthy since you don’t have any talalay yet… Do you like the feel of talalay?
Also, If I recall, PLB sells some incredibly soft toppers, and so you do need to pay particular attention to not simply throwing the thickest softest topper you can find (e.g. 3" of 14 ild). While it might work out, it is more risky that it would be too deep/soft.
We did so much research before buying this mattress and are pretty disappointed that it has not been more comfortable in the long run. If sleeping on our backs, we tend to wake up with numbness in the glutes and down our legs because I think it is too much pressure. We have slept on foam mattresses that become too soft through the night and cause too much pelvic sinking and wake up with lots of low back pain. Trying to find something “in the middle” of those two scenarios. I like the initial feel of Talalay and like the quick response it offers but have never slept on it a full night. Does it sound like it would be a good fit for us? PLB also has a hybrid mattress that may be an option for us.
Without knowing more about the 6" of Dunlop it’s a bit hard to tell, and nearly impossible for me to say what would be suitable for you, except to point you to the post about how to evaluate if a mattress is right for you.
That said, there’s probably nothing wrong with the Dunlop quality wise, although it certainly sounds much too firm. Assuming its a quality piece of latex that’s simply too firm, you can definitely add more layers on top of it. Many beds have a firm dunlop latex base, so it’s a relatively popular design. The trick would be selecting what to put on top of it, which you sort of need to do with your bed so it’s a bit harder to test in stores.
You might go so far as to open the mattress up, take the Dunlop out, and buy a new mattress case to hold it with 1 or more pieces of comfort layer latex. It’s easy to buy that material, but less easy to get it right.
Yes, it is usually possible to find the happy medium… That’s essentially 2 of the P’s in Phoenix’s PPP (posture / alignment - e.g. your hips don’t sink too deep, and pressure relief - e.g. You don’t experience severe pressure pain). Latex, both Dunlop and talalay, and no doubt several other materials could be used. It’s then your preference (final P) as to what you prefer (and which only you can answer).
Did the mattress, when you first had it, feel good and maintain good alignment?
Hi Frustrated Mattress Shopper,
I don’t know any of the details about your weight or sleeping position or the specifics of your mattress but it doesn’t sound so much like the mattress is degrading with only a 1’ quilting layer on a solid core of latex and it sounds more like your mattress may have been too firm in the first place and may not have a thick enough comfort layer to provide the pressure relief you want.
I would also read post #2 here which may have some helpful suggestions including making sure you talk with the manufacturer of your mattress about any suggestions they may have.
Since your mattress is likely to have an even surface (with only an inch of polyfoam there is little to break down in the mattress) it seems to me that a topper would be a good solution and post #8 here has some topper guidelines that may be helpful.
I would tend to be very cautious with the PLB toppers because they are very soft and would normally be more suitable for very light weights and you may do better with a firmer topper than 14 - 15 ILD … again depending on your weight and sleeping positions.
Phoenix
Dear Phoenix,
We truly continue to appreciate your comments and posts.
My husband is 6’2, 205 pounds and I am 5’7 and 185 pounds. We both have disc problems between L4 and L5. Our biggest frustration has been that we need firm support that will not allow the pelvic sinking but softness from the comfort layers to relieve the pressure points.
We have read all of your tips and suggestions on shopping for a mattress and have ruled out memory foam because we both don’t care for the slow response feel and don’t want to add any potential for added heat. So we are either looking for quality innerspring or latex. The local Kansas City dealer we have been working with is Orman’s 3 Day and the owner has a tremendous knowledge of mattress brands and composition. He has generously let us try a 3" pure latex bliss talalay topper to try on our 6" Dunlop, very firm mattress. We will sleep on it for the first time tonight. We were really unsure of a 2" or 3" but tried them both on a firm base in the store and felt that the 3" provided more comfort but we are concerned that it will be a little too soft over time. The owner has given us 30 days to try before making a decision. I would highly recommend this company to anyone in our region. He literally spent hours with us trying to help educate us and trying to help us find the right product and by giving us an expensive topper to try without charge because he thinks we may be able to achieve what we are after with a topper as opposed to a new mattress set.
If this does not work out, we were considering the PLB hybrid mattress. Our budget is topped out at $2000 for a mattress. Again, we would really prefer to give our business to a company that has invested his time in us. So this hybrid product is more affordable than the line that has unbounded latex/foam. Which of the models would likely best meet our needs. We were leaning with the 13" Celebrate but are a bit concerned it will be too soft. It has a support core of 8" rebounded latex/foam then 2" talalay and final layer is 3" of fast response foam. We were worried that the 9" hybrid would be too firm and we would end up in the same situation as our current mattress.
Thoughts?
Phoenix,
One other comment, we would prefer to be back sleepers and generally fall asleep like this, but hurt too much and spend most of the night on our sides. Our current latex mattress has no comfort layers to speak of and it’s total profile is 8-9". It is double sided.
Hi Frustrated Mattress Shopper,
I agree that it was great service and very generous of them to let you take home two toppers to try.
I would still tend to be very cautious about 14 ILD Talalay at your weights and a higher ILD may be more appropriate both in terms of durability and suitability but no matter what any theory says your own personal experience is the most effective way to assess any topper/mattress combination.
Post #2 here has some links to some of the “theory” involved in mattress design and matching different body types and sleeping positions but these are only generic and useful as a very general guideline … not as a way to make a specific choice. There are so many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that your own personal testing using the testing guidelines and your own experience is a much more effective way to choose a mattress in terms of PPP than any “theory at a distance”. While the The PLB hybrid mattresses don’t use latex in the base layers … they do use a very durable rebond base layer (see post #6 here).
This would make a good durable base mattress for a topper but with such a thin comfort layer and a Dunlop latex core it’s not surprising that it would be a little to firm for many people (side sleepers especially) and that a topper is needed for some extra softness and pressure relief. If you choose the right topper then you would have a great combination because both the base mattress and the topper can be flipped and rotated which can improve durability … even with a material that is already as durable as latex.
Phoenix
Phoenix,
As mentioned in earlier posts, we have a latex mattress with a 6" dunlop support core that is too firm for us. We have found out that the mattress, according to the manufacturer has a ILD of 27-30. You mentioned in your last post that you might be concerned about a topper with a 14 ILD. We have been sleeping on the PLB 3" topper for a couple of weeks and it definitely is too soft and our backaches are no better. Do you have a good recommendation as to what might be a better option in a topper? What should we initially look for if the one we now have is too soft?
If we can’t make this work, we are likely to go back to a more traditional innerspring mattress.
Thanks for your input.
Hi Frustrated Mattress Shopper,
While there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved to make any specific suggestions about a topper … there are some topper guidelines in post #8 here based on your experience on the mattress by itself along with body types and sleeping positions that can increase your odds of success when you are buying a topper.
Phoenix
Dear Phoenix,
After weeks of research we think we are leaning towards King Koil extended life mattress. Following is the information for the XL350:
2" superior high density foam - 1.8 lbs
2" enhanced Talalay latex plush
2" extended life foam - 2.5 lbs (may be HR?)
450 12.5 guage, double offset coils
We do plan to buy from a local retailer that has been extremely helpful and he is planning to deliver a mattress to our home (the floor model) for us to try before we commit to the purchase.
What has me concerned is that we can not find anything about this mattress on the internet and are wondering if King Koil even continues to make it. Do you know how best for us to research this and based on the criteria above, does it appear to be a quality mattress for us to pursue.
Again we live in the Kansas City area and have found no manufactures here locally that may offer a similar product.
Thank you for all your help.,
Hi Frustrated Mattress Shopper,
These are all good quality materials and it has a good insulator above the coils which are also good quality and strong so there are no weak links in the mattress in terms of quality/durability.
Your retailer will know if they are still making it if they can still order it but Comfort Solutions still makes the XL line which is among their better quality mattresses.
I’m not sure what further research you want to do on this mattress but knowing the quality of the materials and being able to test it for PPP is the most important part of any research outside of making comparisons with any of your other finalists that you’ve tested.
The Kansas City list here has the better options I know of in the area (including two factory direct manufacturers Hawn Bedding and Lebeda) that may have a similar mattress (high quality innerspring with latex and/or high quality polyfoam comfort layers) that would also be worth including in your research.
Phoenix
Dear Phoenix,
We have almost concluded that this is the mattress we will purchase. One final question regarding it’s construction is why is the latex layer sandwiched between 2 layers of poly foam? What is the advantage or disadvantage of this type of construction? Similar mattresses we have reviewed have latex in the top layer.
Thanks again for you input.
Hi Frustrated Mattress Shopper,
The reasons are different for the polyfoam above the latex and the polyfoam below the latex.
Polyfoam layers above a latex layer are part of the comfort layers and are often added to provide some extra softness, lower the resilience of the sleeping surface (some people don’t like sleeping directly on the more resilient Talalay latex), lower the cost of the mattress (latex is more costly than polyfoam), or as a material that can be quilted or tufted to a cover to help the cover keep its shape.
The polyfoam below the latex is used as a transition layer in between the firmer innerspring and the softer layers above it. It’s a less costly alternative to using latex in the deeper layers and also has a different less “springy” or “stiffer” feel although 2.5 lb polyfoam is also a very durable material and if it’s HR polyfoam can also have some of the higher performance properties of latex.
Phoenix
Dear Phoenix,
I’m hoping this will be our final post before making a buying decision tomorrow! You have been so very helpful in our search and we appreciate and value your input.
We thought we had decided on the Comfort Solutions/King Koil XL 350 series and are convinced that it is high quality materials. However, before buying today we made the journey to Lebeda, a local manufacturer referenced in one of your prior posts and found a bed we are now considering.
The bed is a pillow top, non flippable mattress, with enhanced heavy innerspring support core made from 12.5 gauge steel and the comfort layers consists of micro-coils plus a top layer of 1.5" of Talalay latex although the salesman was unable today to get me the ILD of the latex. Overall the feel was medium firm.
Our concern, since we have bought one mattress that was too firm and one that was too soft, is that we are now trying to gauge this right this time before making a third purchase. The XL is a least a full step firmer than the pillow top from Lebeda. The manufacturer puts it at a 5 on a scale of 1-10 and states it is their most popular mattress and they have been making it for years. The feel in the store has us leaning towards the Lebeda and we are concerned about the overall firmness after hours on the XL that it might not be as comfortable overnight as it initially feels in the store. We have spent no more than 90 minutes on it in the store. We definitely need good support but pressure relief is equally important and has had us up many nights on a prior mattress that was too firm.
Warranties and price are about the same, but we feel fairly strongly that the local manufacturer would be easier to work with on a warranty issue if it arose rather than King Koil.
Which mattress is less likely to sag or develop body impressions over time? Will the micro coils break down and provide less support? Do you have any other final thoughts on helping us make a decision?
Thanks again!
Hi Frustrated Mattress Shopper,
[quote]The bed is a pillow top, non flippable mattress, with enhanced heavy innerspring support core made from 12.5 gauge steel and the comfort layers consists of micro-coils plus a top layer of 1.5" of Talalay latex although the salesman was unable today to get me the ILD of the latex. Overall the feel was medium firm.
Our concern, since we have bought one mattress that was too firm and one that was too soft, is that we are now trying to gauge this right this time before making a third purchase. The XL is a least a full step firmer than the pillow top from Lebeda. The manufacturer puts it at a 5 on a scale of 1-10 and states it is their most popular mattress and they have been making it for years. The feel in the store has us leaning towards the Lebeda and we are concerned about the overall firmness after hours on the XL that it might not be as comfortable overnight as it initially feels in the store. We have spent no more than 90 minutes on it in the store. We definitely need good support but pressure relief is equally important and has had us up many nights on a prior mattress that was too firm.[/quote]
ILD is a “comfort spec” not a “quality spec” so if you are making a local purchase then knowing the ILD of the layers makes little difference because your body and careful and objective testing will tell you more about whether the mattress is a good “match” in terms of PPP than the specs.
Microcoils and latex are both very durable comfort layers (more durable than polyfoam) and wouldn’t be a weak link in the mattress.
I would agree that smaller local manufacturers are generally much more responsive to customers and their local reputation than larger manufacturers and they can often make adjustments or repairs to a mattress at a local level quite quickly.
Past the fist few years when actual defects tend to show up … warranties aren’t particularly meaningful and have little to do with the useful life of a mattress (see post #174 here). They only cover manufacturing defects not the loss of comfort and support that comes from foam softening or the compression and breakdown of materials unless they are more than the warranty exclusions which is not the norm.
While I don’t have the details of all the layers and components in the Lebeda mattress outside of 1.5" Talalay latex, microcoils, and a 12.5 gauge (strong) innerspring … if there are no missing layers that could be a weak link in the mattress I would give the durability edge to the Lebeda although neither of them have any obvious weak links and PPP or some of the other factors that are important parts of your personal value equation could also make a difference in your final choice.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
We have ruled out the King Koil and decided to make a purchase from Lebeda. They have provided all the details on the construction and I don’t think there are any weak links in the materials.
We are now comparing 2 models. One is their flagship bed that they have been making since they were founded in the 40’s. It is a flippable innerspring with 1.5 inches of 3.4 lb density Talalay latex on either side and then quilting and is inner tufted.
The second one is the same spring construction, still flippable but adds another 1.5 inches of same latex on either side and is double tufted with a .5 inch extra latex in the quilting layer. This mattress does feel more luxurious.
Both mattresses have great lumbar support. We are worried about how much the extra layers of latex will wear over time. They just started making this bed and we would be the first local customers to buy. We are trying to decide if we would be better off with the firmer mattress and adding a topper. There is a significant price difference in price between the two models. Are the extra layers of latex more likely to compress over time and form body impressions? What are your thoughts for us to consider?
Hi Frustrated Mattress Shopper,
If it was me I would make the choice based on your testing for PPP not based on durability in this case.
“In theory” thicker/softer layers of the same material would be more prone to softening than thinner layers of the same material (softening will have a greater effect over time) but you are also comparing two versions of a very durable material (relative to other materials) so with a choice between two sided mattress that are both tufted (increases durability) and use very durable materials then which one was more durable “in theory” would be a secondary factor for me because both of them would be in the “very durable” category. I would also keep in mind that durability or the useful life of a mattress is also relative to each person because a mattress that is on the edge of being too soft for a specific person will not last as long for that person as it would for someone where the same mattress was more inside the range of PPP that was suitable for them (see post #2 here).
In the end it would be a matter of your own “personal value equation” and whether price or “theoretical durability” was more important than “sleeping comfort” (assuming one was better than the other for your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP). My own tendency would be to choose a mattress that was the best combination of PPP and durability that I could comfortably afford.
When you look back on a mattress purchase many years from now (and it would be many years in both cases if they were both well inside the range of your specific needs and preferences and neither was on the edge of being too soft for you) you will remember much more about how well you slept over the years than you will the price you paid although of course price will always play an important role in your choice.
Phoenix