I just wanted to start a thread to see if anyone had a preference between the two models and what your opinion is after having used it.
In addition which mattress protector and or topper you are using
thank you )
Mike,
I’m going to quote a page out of Phoenix’s mattress buying playbook.
"Just as important as the quality/durability of a mattress is it’s “suitability” for you. This will depend on your body type, sleeping positions, and preferences as well as your physiology, age, sensitivities, and any health issues you may have. This is where the different types of softness/firmness levels of each layer, the different properties of each type of material, and the different combinations play a role in “matching” a mattress to what you need and prefer".
I do not put much credence in opinions or reviews of mattresses. I have to personally try them out and form my own opinion based on my needs.
You stated in your other thread that you were going to try both mattresses out again and then make a decision. From your posts I’m assuming you live close enough to cgmattress to take advantage of their comfort exchange policy.
BobP
Yes this thread was meant to hear opinions and experiences from those that purchased. This is beyond the Phoenix “playbook” as forums are typically meant to exchange ideas and their experience. I happen to value others opinions. No one is asking another to tell them which mattress is best for another. How a mattress holds up over time, how the manufacturer deals with warranties, how the mattress feels with certain covers or protectors. Yes trying a mattress is a good thing, which is the point of the contradictions I see here, in that this forum seems to support ordering online without trying them or I should say the online members who pay typically are wanting the business from those in here looking. As stated previously The BBB and companies like Yelp are essentially based on customers experiences and they are very valuable to others. As you read in the other thread I saw a review from a customer that purchased a mattress hoping for a clone of what she felt in the showroom and after her purchase she wished she would have bought the mattress in the store not the clone.
thanks
Ok Mike,
I posted my wife’s and my experience with the PLB Nutrition and Beautiful models back in your original thread, post #19 and what mattress protector we are using in post #51. We also thought that the prices for these PLB models were way beyond our budget.
BobP
Hi Mike7,
This is not a typical forum and the reason I chose the forum format as part of this site was so that people had a way to ask questions and find accurate answers that “bypassed” most of the inaccurate and contradictory information that was so common on the internet … and in other forums. This forum is meant as a means and tool to find accurate information … not just any information. Post #5 here would also be worth reading when it comes to some of the differences in approach between this forum and some of the others that are also available and my thoughts about them and the role they played in the development of the site. An exchange of information is always valuable and of course is always part of any forum … but here, when information is “exchanged” that isn’t accurate, then part of the reason this forum exists is to make sure that it’s responded to with more accurate information so that the people who read it can differentiate between them.
Once again … I would encourage you to actually read the links I posted earlier so that your statements are more informed and accurate. As I’ve also mentioned … if you see what you believe are contradictions then link to them so that they can either be clarified so you understand their context and meaning or can be corrected. For example … if you’ve even read the “read first” post you would see that one of the steps is to test mattresses locally and that if there is a local equivalent which is in the range of 20% more that I would consider the local purchase to be roughly equivalent value. I would also suggest you read the post about each person’s “personal value equation” before you make more statements about what I “encourage” when it just isn’t accurate and does nobody any favors. Misrepresenting what I say and implying its opposite is true does nobody any favors and only takes up my time to respond to your posts and correct you. There’s little point to saying the same thing over and over again based on broad generalities if you also don’t also include examples of what you are referring to or aren’t open to reading the replies you’ve been given.
Phoenix
Bob yes thank you I read your thread regarding your experience and the foundation post which is a perfect example of how informative actual users can assist others looking.
)
I will respond to the other post as well in the thread I started regarding several issues but let me say I find it beyond strange how you respond to my posts and others. First you posted " if you’ve even read the “read first” post you would see that one of the steps is to test mattresses locally and that if there is a local equivalent which is in the range of 20% more that I would consider the local purchase to be roughly equivalent value". What does 20% matter? An equivalent in what ? Dont you see the contradiction? Unless as you admitted it’s the exact materials and ILDS then its not the same mattress. Those online you cant test its that simple.
You seem to take my posts as if I quoted you exactly —example clearly you feel DIY mattresses are not the best way to go —Yet wen I posted you “oppose” them you simply deny it saying you never used the word opposed because you would never tell others what to do. Thats part of the confusion many people are having in my opinion. You certainly have discouraged DIY mattresses. but because I posted you cant duplicate a mattress you had to once again respond to infer you can. You even gave a link to an amazon seller who sells individual layers I guess to try and support the post claiming you can come close to cloning. There are several contradictions and Ill try to get to those later. One example is when I posted for people to be careful about cloning because most companies here do not use the exact materials and you posted I need to be careful about misleading. The following post I say " I stand by my post" and you then say “now your getting it” Ive always said the exact thing based on your words you cannot duplicate a mattress unless you have the exact materials — a plb mattress uses 6" core 4" and 3" and 2" upper layers depending on the model, they glue their mattresses ( that might add to the feel), they use a fusion layer and in their cover. Most companies on this site define their soft as 22-24 plb uses 19 then 24 ILD. The difference between their two most plush models is off by one inch and the exact iILDs, the companies online would be further off again showing that cloninig is difficult.
In the end I think maybe you make this more confusing because its your business Im not sure. But if a company gets their talalay latex from latex international then simply get the layers and the cover and viola you should have the same mattress.
I think the biggest problem I have with the site is the fact you made this a business. Yes you posted a disclosure statement if one wanted to search for it. But its beyond rational to think no matter how decent you are that making $50 for every bed sold due to this site is not a conflict of interest. I’m pretty sure most people who come here looking for information are not aware that the companies you recommend (most) pay you for every sale. I dont question your effort nor your business model. I do think its deceptive and misleading as most would. Its akin to reading the fine print on an event ticket or the small print in an infomercial as it scrolls by fast. Your responses and comments are not as direct as telling people use these companies etc but there are certain ways you “nuance” your responses. When complaints are made you seek to “protect” or defer the company “they are a great company this us unusual for them” (paraphrasing). When a person asks you a question you dont include the bad experiences you simply recommend the same things. Example I gave earlier where I almost paid thousands to get a PLB mattress duplicated by the same company that one customer here said couldn’t (yes I know you feel customers sometimes feel something different even with the same mattress). Frankly most people come to forums to seek advice and although you seem very knowledgeable and probably accurate in many ways you are making this a business and no matter how honest you are there is a huge conflict of interest. People are conditioned to look at forums as a place to exchange ideas and seek knowledge. Maybe in your mattress forum in the posts in yellow you should add that this is a business for you where those that pay also pay you everytime a sale is made from this forum. Its a smart idea in some sense as people get a 5% discount and you get $50. But the conflict arises when these companies dont achieve the satisfaction and you are very aware of the complaints that have been posted. I dont think you are a “scammer” or even trying to take advantage. I think you gained knowledge in this area and sought to use it and make it profitable. Its very smart. I think you have helped a lot of people and many seem to be satisfied. But I think the when anyone recommends companies that pay them and make a profit based on those recommendations its a conflict. Again i dont question your work ethic or you intent.
Heres an example of why I think you contradict. these are your exact words to another customer regarding recreating a mattress
“The difficulty is that it’s often not possible to “match” all the specs and components that can make a difference in the feel and performance of a mattress”
yet
my words “Mattress.net sells PLB but they will tell you they can duplicate the mattress. Be careful of companies that say that as I don’t think it can be duplicated based on what Ive learned
Ive asked for a price they never got back to me.”
your response
"I would be careful passing this kind of advice on to others because while I understand that for some reason this is what you believe … it’s also not accurate as our previous conversation has already indicated.
It’s true though that it may not be something that someone wants to do or would even be worthwhile for some people but it is certainly possible …especially with Talalay latex."
another exchange - a person says “I don’t get why you’re discouraging the DIY route so much Phoenix.
This is a forum for consumer’s I’m hoping and not one that just steers business to the members of the mattress underground”
your response
“Primarily because it’s a high risk and possibly costly proposition and I have seen the dissappointed results of many consumers who believed that it was easier that it really was and ended up regretting their choice.” then you go on to say "If the type of latex and the latex manufacturer is the same, the ILD and thickness of all the layers are the same, and the cover and quilting is functionally the same, then you’re correct the two mattresses would be substantially the same. This would depend on having accurate information about both a mattress you are trying to copy and the materials you are using to copy it though. The difficulty is that it’s often not possible to “match” all the specs and components that can make a difference in the feel and performance of a mattress and many consumers don’t fully understand the effect that seemingly small differences can make.
Now you can understand the confusion ----You go on to tell me that its possible to clone you tell me that you dont oppose DIY and yet in your own words most people would get the impression as I did in addition when I tol;d you a company said they could duplicate the PLB you not once typed anything as you did above thanks)
Hi Mike7,
Your posts are becoming increasingly bogged down in detail, no longer particularly meaningful, and are too time consuming to continuously correct. They are also hijacking some of the more important discussions in the threads they are part of so I’ll makea few more comments and then this will be the end of this part of our discussion.
Beyond this I will caution you that if you continue to misrepresent what I have said, provide further advice that is not accurate or misleading, or continue in this same argumentative tone then I will transfer your posts to your own thread and remove them from the threads you post in (you would be one of the very few members here where I have had to do this). You are on the edge of forum trolling.
This quote comes from post #10 here. If you read the rest of the post you will see its context. You also need to include the meaning of all of the words so that you can tell discern the difference between absolute statements and cautionary statements that are meant to help people realize the potential risk of the direction they are going.
As I’ve mentioned before this is just not correct. The layers of the PLB that someone may want to duplicate are well known and the cover is a stretch knit cover and the ILD’s of Talalay are more specific than other types of latex so if you use the same layer thickness and the same type and ILD of latex and use a similar cover then you would have a virtual duplicate. The key here is that the layers of a mattress that you are duplicating are known (unlike many mattresses that people try to duplicate where they aren’t known) and al the specific materials are available. This still doesn’t deal with the fact that even if they do duplicate a PLB mattress successfully that it may not be suitable for them and then they have no recourse if they chose a design that isn’t suitable for them so the risk is higher.
The inaccuracy and the lack of knowledge behind your “advice” (what you “think” you’ve learned isn’t correct) is the reason for my response that you quoted …
This is in exactly the same post and is part of the same reply. It is also accurate (and contradicts your statement that a mattress can’t be duplicated which isn’t my own opinion which is why I corrected you in the previous quote). It also goes on to explain why the choice of a complete DIY without any guidance or exchange options is more risky when you don’t know the details of the layers you are duplicating with certainty. In some cases the components of a mattress can’t be purchased separately and then a DIY design would need to be an approximation or a translation. This may “feel” the same to a majority of people if the translation is equivalent to the original in terms of PPP but wouldn’t be a “duplicate” so it may not have the same feel and performance for all people.
I certainly understand “your” confusion but it’s because you are thinking in black and white terms and not trying to learn the circumstances when something may be one way and when it may be another. I had previously provided you with links about the different ways that a mattress can be duplicated long before this post … you just didn’t read them for some reason which is part of why our exchange has gone on for so long and perhaps why you continue to say the same thing so many times even though it won’t change the content of my replies to you before you decided that you wanted to argue or misrepresent what I have said more than you wanted to learn the information that may benefit you.
There is no contradiction here and it’s simply a guideline. If you read the rest of the post you will see that the 20% is a rough guideline to make up for the greater risk of an online purchase and is also a suggestion. It teaches a concept that greater risk needs is part of each person’s “personal value equation”. Each person has their own “formula” for value (which is the point of the post in the first place) and you certainly don’t have to follow any of the suggestions I make. Whether you agree or not though or whether it makes sense to you or not it is still a guideline I would suggest as part of assessing the “value” of a mattress purchase. It makes no difference to me if you follow it or not … its simply there as a suggestion based on experience that can help many people and whether you choose to follow it or ignore it or even whether you understand it is entirely up to you.
It would be more effective to speak for yourself and let others speak for themselves as well. You certainly don’t have the knowledge of mattress construction or the industry that your thoughts about “why people are confused” are particularly meaningful to me.
The rest of your comments are mostly going around in circles and covering old ground so I will end this discussion. Again … you are being “officially cautioned” to refrain from offering poor or misguided advice, to continue discussions that are only repetitive, or that misrepresents what someone else says (me or otherwise). You are on the edge of trolling and hijacking forum threads that don’t need the distraction and taking up far too much of my time that is better spent elsewhere.
If you have questions that you want answered or are more interested in learning than you are criticizing then you are welcome to continue posting. Otherwise there are other forums that you are welcome to post in where all opinions are welcome or you can make as many misleading statements as you wish whether they are accurate or not.
Phoenix
As expected. I start a thread to seek others opinions about the PLB mattresses and your response causes this exchange and you blame and threaten to remove it if I respond. Its always everyone elses fault you even ask me to provide contradictions now you threaten (another contradiction). You typed "As I’ve mentioned before this is just not correct. The layers of the PLB that someone may want to duplicate are well known " yes and the person was talking about that mattress where you then stated “The difficulty is that it’s often not possible to “match” all the specs and components that can make a difference in the feel and performance of a mattress and many consumers don’t fully understand the effect that seemingly small differences can make”. Whats strange is you dont see these as a contradiction.
Lastly after every purchase you encourage people to give you feedback as to how the mattress is doing, again the point of this thread, yet for some reason you dont think reviews are helpful.
Im guessing you will remove this for other reasons. You respond to my posts and Im trolling or hijacking threads that I started? Not once! Nothing ive said warrants it but its your business and how dare anyone say anything that may give an insight. Controlling this forum and inaccurately blaming others seems like your desire for some reason.
I am not sure how this devolved into such a hostile conversation. What I can say is that Phoenix has been one of the most responsive and informative forum admins I’ve ever seen. So to accuse him of nefarious behavior is jumping the gun to say the least.
Regarding the advice for most people NOT to DIY a mattress. I am actually building a DIY latex mattress right now, and I would agree that most people should not do it. I slept a few nights on a 36ILD topper on top of a fairly firm box spring. Just last night I got my 2nd topper in so slept on a 36ILD over 44ILD over fairly firm box spring. I am still surprised at how different those two arrangements feel. And I know that the feel of the mattress will continue to evolve as I add a third layer, add a cover, move to an adjustable base, etc. Now in my situation I went DIY partly because I never found a local latex mattress that I loved (they were all too soft). If I HAD found a perfect mattress, however, I believe it would be very difficult to perfectly imitate it and I’d end up wishing I just bought what I knew I liked.
I would have to disagree with the thread starter as to Phoenix pushing customers to buy from site members. I posted about a mattress from a forum member and he replied with about ten different places to buy a mattress locally. I have also seen many final choice topics between a bed from a forum member and a bed from else and I have never seen the customer be persuaded to buy the member bed.
No one is accusing him of nefarious behavior. He makes $50 per sale from those that mention this forum and you get 5% discount. Thats the point. Most people dont think of forums as a business practice for the owner. He is informative.
And your post is my point Its hard to duplicate a mattress and as this thread was started in another one someone like yourself wished they would have purchased the original one and not have a company duplicate it. I was considering the same option when a company told me they could duplicate a pure latex bliss mattress for almost half the price. I felt the information given was conflicting. Its that simple
And no one has said he pushes only the dealers here. He does not he offers local stores as well in fact he suggests locally may be the best option.
thanks
Hi mike7,
This is taking some time but your comments are shifting which I’m glad to see so perhaps appealing to your logic will help you understand some of my other comments and some of my replies to some of your statements to which I have taken exception in other posts.
I’m glad to see you are now recognizing this …
Which is much different from when you said this …
and also contradicts this … (a statement I make frequently about the many lists or manufacturers and retailers that are all over the forum)
Finally … it seems to me that some of your misunderstanding about some of what I have posted revolves around this statement which you have quoted on several occasions …
In logic theory as well as math and computer programming … there is what is known as an “if then” statement or a “conditional” statement. This is because the truth of a conclusion in the last part of a statement (the THEN part) depends on the conditions of the first part of the statement (the IF part).
In the world of mattresses … there are often so many variables and unknowns that a more specific “black and white” or “always true” or “always false” statement is usually inaccurate because it depends on the specific variables, unknowns, and circumstances. Statements that imply “always” or “never” are easier to understand (there are only two possibilities) but are mostly inaccurate. A statement like this would be “you can always duplicate another mattress” or “you can never duplicate another mattress”. This is also made more difficult because the definition of “duplicate” can vary with different people. What “feels” the same for different people can vary widely.
This quote above is a conditional statement that comes from from a thread where a member in Canada was posting about duplicating some of his local experiences and was looking at DIY alternatives. You can see the context by reading all of his posts here and all my replies by clicking on the thread title of each of his posts. It was quite a lengthy exchange and some of the context of my replies is in the post before he referred to the same quote above.
He also makes a statement in response to a question about being “dissuaded” from a DIY construction by replying that he didn’t believe I was trying to dissuade him … only to make sure his “eyes were open” which was exactly correct.
You can also see one of my replies to him here which is a “conditional” or “IF THEN” statement …
In the end he ended up purchasing a mattress that was an “equivalent” to what he was looking at (not a duplicate) partly because of cost and partly because he was more on the “I can sleep on anything” end of the scale than the “princess and the pea” end of the scale where smaller differences may have been more noticeable to him.
You can see what he ended up purchasing in his post #11 here because he couldn’t find sources that could “duplicate” the mattress that was his “target” (and which he hadn’t tested).
I think much if not most of your misunderstanding may be clarified by recognizing the difference between a “conditional” statement which leads to the use of less absolute terminology such as “OFTEN” vs what you are seeing as contradictory statements. The goal of this site is partly to explore and educate the members here about the different circumstances, variables, and conditions (the “IF” part) that can lead to different outcomes. This leads to more complex and nuanced discussions that can take more careful reading.
Just to clarify as well because this isn’t quite correct … it’s actually 5% which caps out at $50 (on a mattress that is priced at $1000 or more) and this and any discount or bonus only applies to one of the members here (there are currently just over 20) and not to any of the hundreds of retailers or manufacturers that are mentioned in dozens of lists around the country (where I point to value wherever I find it) which represent the large majority of the mattresses that are purchased as a result of the information on this site.
Hopefully this has helped you better understand the reasoning behind some of the things you’ve read which you see as “contradictory” and we can move on to other more useful topics 
Phoenix
this gets beyond rational. Something is not quite right with your thinking but oh well. Maybe you need to take a break or step back a little, although you probably dont think so. Thats okay
Enjoy- carry on
Hi Mike7,
I am … and I will … thanks
Phoenix