Putting the layers together - overview

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
9

Thanks for sharing the details of your configuration. It does not resemble a mattress design that has been used by established mattess manufacturers. Your mattress needs a support system, and the 30ILD Dunlop latex appears to serve that function. It is likely not the dunlop but the materials on top of it not providing an appropriate transition layer function that is causing your continued hip pain. The 2-3" of convoluted foam should be removed. Convoluting foam is a techinque used by some mattress manufacuturers to maintain profile, reduce cost and create a faux plushness (my opinion, of course :wink: . Replacing it with a latex layer in the 24 ILD range will likely provide an effective transition between both the 30 ILD Dunlop base and the 19 ILD gel memory foam. Layering a mattress using the numbers in your note, a design of 30(bottom)/24/GelMF/19 will likely provide the best configuration of the materials you have (assuming you pitch the convo and replace it with 2 or 3" of 24 ILD Talalay. Yes, this does require you to buy a 24 ILD layer, but it will be less than a start-over.

Sensei

10

Thank you for suggestions, I may need to try the 24ild . The 19 is talalay. I have no problem giving up the foam. My goal is to feel fully supported with a little cushion. I’ll see how next few days go. After last night I think the 24ild might make mattress to soft? I tried the following configuration with much better results. Using the items i have on hand,(It was suggested by SleepEZ), From bottom to top: 2" convoluted foam, 1" MF, 3" Dunlop (30ild), 2" talalay (19ild). Woke up feeling better than have in while. I will keep this arrangement of layers for now, progress! I do think I will need to increase suppotiveness , (trying to keep hips more level & not have any “pushup” effect in lumbar,which was not felt at all last night- this was huge problem before relayering). I have no problem with getting rid of MF & convoluted foam but they seem to be serving a purpose for now. Since the 30ild D. gives slight “pushup” in lumbar when i lay on it alone, it seems this ILD has a place in my configuration. How do I increase suppotiveness without losing progress I’ve made so far? Would using the 30 ILD dunlop as transition layer and getting 2"or 3" higher ILD for base increase more hip support ? get rid of all foam? Incorporate the 1" memory foam I have? Thanks for letting me hash out my thoughts and experience on you site, the info and suggestions are helping me sort through what has become a very long process.

11

I’m thinking of putting together a latex mattress with 3 x 3" layers of dunlop (medium, medium, and firm) and placing a 2" soft talalay topper. My thought is that the talalay would provide a good material for the comfort layer and the two medium dunlops would be a slow transition to the firm. I have noticed that some latex beds seem to go very quickly from soft to firm. Do you think this setup would achieve my goal of a slow transition to firm, allow for pressure relief, yet be supportive. Also, if given the choice of cover material, I know some companies sell a cotton with wool, yet I think that this might take away a bit from the properties of latex that I like. Do you think this is accurate or all in my head. Was wondering if a thinner four way stretch material might be better suited for a latex mattress. Thoughts?

12

Hello Demill1866,
Thank you for reaching out to The Mattress Underground. Your design will provide for progession of firmness. However, 6" of medium firm dunlop will likely dominate the feel.
You may want to consider having a full progressive transition with each layer (plush, medium, medium firm, firm). Your observation re. rapid change in ILD (soft, firm) is astute; the lack of a transition firmness in between usually creates a pressure point challenge for side sleepers.
Yes, the use of wool in the cover/quilting meets the requirements for fire retardancy (16 CFR 1633) and does provide for some transition comfort and moisture absorbtion, but it does make a pad between your body and the latex. If it’s in your head, then your head is fine tuned! Two-way stretch material works well; it is difficult to find a four-way stretch that is also an organic cotton cover.
All-in-all you are zeroing in on a nice design. Hopefully you will source your components from a company that will allow you to make an exchange, so that if it’s not ideal, you can fine tune it. Have fun putting the pieces together!

Sensei

13

Update: first I would like to say, I sound crazy, I am not. First sign,I know. To the point. I completely reconstructed my bed. Harvested the pocketed innerspring from previous mattress (glad dump run was slow). The innerspring is now my base, 3 " dunlop(30ILD) follows with 2" (19ILD) talalay. So far only one night sleeping on it but woke up without severe hip pain . I continue to struggle with trying to determine if 30ILD is to firm or too soft because it seems to mimick both. Sensei mentioned 24ild as transition layer ,I’m wondering if exchanging 30ild for 24ild to go with 19ild better for comfort layer. I noticed my hips did not dip down with innerspring last night so alignment much better. But felt some pressure points. If I lay on the 30ild alone, the way I sink in it causes hip pain(arches lumbar up). Does this make any sense? That’s why confused if too soft or firm. Would a 2" be better than a 3" now that I am working more with comfort layers where before was using the 30ILD as base. My return/exchange time running short which is reason for my urgency. Did talk to manufactures before I decided to attempt putting a hybrid together and they were somewhat to vaguely helpful. My hope is this forum can help me get this dialed in .at least i am moving in right direction because i am not dreading going to bed to night .Any feedback appreciated.

14

Hi Kristy93292.

Your post #10 here (which I just moved in this thread to help keep all your details in one place and make it easier to assist you) clarifies my previous dilemma regarding your DIY and missing a base/support layer salvaged from your previous mattress and are currently reusing under the two new latex layers. I am glad to hear that with the new configuration the hip pain was alleviated but it seems that you still have a bit of legwork to do to dial in on the right combination.

I don’t know for how long you’ve had the previous mattress but I’d first check on the integrity of the pocket coil you rescued and make sure that there are no sagging or soft spots which may be part of the issues you are experiencing. I’d also check that the foundation is not sagging under the weight of the mattress and people sleeping on it. Depending on your primary sleeping position the information I previously provided in the other a thread should help determine if your alignment is correct. Side sleepers can do well with thicker softer comfort layers but again only you’d be able to tell if this combination of softens/firmness is right for you … as I previously mentioned in general, you want firm enough deep support and then comfort layers that are “just enough” in terms of thickness and softness to “fill in” and support the more recessed parts of your sleeping profile and relieve pressure in your most pressure prone sleeping position so that there is less risk to alignment in your other sleeping positions.

Provided that the pocket spring is in good condition then adding + 24 ILD + 19 ILD as Sensei suggested will certainly help with pressure point relief in the hip area. Depending on the results of your experiments you’d be able to tell soon enough if a 2" would work better than 3" in 24 ILD but before deciding I’d give your body a chance to readjust to any of the new changes.

To keep all your details are in one place and make it easier to assist you I will be moving your posts in the present thread here.

Best of luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Phoenix

15

Update, got rid of innerspring they were worn out. Using foam base from the mattress as my current base. Best configuration so far is 3 inch of 30 ild Dunlop, 2 inch memory foam , 3 inch convoluted topper. Reason for latex to not sleep warm obviously sleeping warmer then I’d like. Returning 2" - 19ILD talalay, determined too soft. But the pushback in lumbar still exists if only on dunlop.the MF & convoluted foam (sensei says toss but for now seems to have a place) create comfort the soft talalay did not. From responses to my previous posts it sounds like I still need a supportive base. Am considering getting either foam or innerspring for base. Using 2" -30ild dunlop(exchanging for current 3") hoping to reduce hips sinking down/the feel of a rolling pin under lumbar. Then find a gel infused memory foam(hopefully one that works & not hold heat) would this work in your opinion? Or should I keep 3" D. It seems to work as lower layer but feel 2" would allow more flexibility as I attempt to find what is right fit. It was suggested to me to try med talalay over med dunlop but concerns of spending money and that pushback still there. Does it sound like latex not best choice for me and I keep trying to make it So? Or have I just not yet found correct configurations because of self imposed financial constraints?

16

I’m having a difficult time locating information regarding different types of mattress covers for latex mattresses. I was wondering if you had any posts regarding comparing them (e.g. cotton and wool, Bamboo, Tencel,…) or people’s experience with the different types.

Thanks in advance

17

Still reading and experimenting. Update then questions. My current configuration(s) from bottom to top: solid plywood foundation, 3.5" foam base using ad support core (harvested from old innerspring) , 2" convoluted foam on both sides (could be 3"If measure from highest point to highest point. Have had this topper for 10 years and seems to find its way back on my bed even when I have tried to discard it), 2" soft(19ild)talalay, thin feather comforter finishing it off. This was original mix while trying to figure out best support layer. This worked fairly well albeit seemed to lack “give.” Felt hard by morning. So I put soft 2" memory foam on foundation with base foam on top and kept above configuration (only change was addition of MF). This did help reduce “hard” feeling but support compromised. I think main reason suppot low because of the temporary foam from old mattress is beginning to loose recilency. But after up and around in the morning no hip or back pain.I have tried 30ild Dunlop as support core but it and other foam type mattress I tried allow my hips to dip too far in and create hip pain. So have returned many items trying to tune in my comfort and not waste money. I do enjoy the feel of firm to med firm innerspring(pocketed coil) mattress or hybrid. Don’t enjoy what they cost. Questions: would a 4 to 5 inch poly foam support core give enough firm support without the hips sinking like with the latex? I am looking toward poly foam as less expensive and if doesn’t work, not out as much money. The combo coil system has caught my attention on mattress.net but seems risky because of no return policy, otherwise this would be my first choice.I have found a Simmons bed and a serta bed that feel good in the store but not in pocket book and not if they start sagging way before their time. Is an inexpensive innerspring with my toppers about same thing as combo coils? I am thinking the combo coil system may be better quality of coils so last longer. As for now I am comfortable enough to not make any fast decisions but can tell the support is giving out so need to do something soon. Thanks for your time and input on my current situation.

18

Hi Kristy93292,

You are correct about some of your old components “losing resiliency” and a general feeling of losing support over time. That makes sense; they will break down over time, as you well know.

I do not belive that the latex is the cause of the lack of support and sinking hips that you’ve been experiancing. Most components and materials, including latex, come in firmer or softer versions suitable for different comfort/support applications or personal needs. A 30 ILD medium latex support core would not offer the aprropriate support for most people. A polyfoam core can certainly give enough support, but again it does depend on a number of factors such as the ILD specification mentioned above and the density of the layer which will tell you how durable this wil be. Please take a look some of our polyfoam articles this article about durability, and this article about polyfoam support cores. Also, make sure you check your BMI to use it when you check your durability guidelines here.

Most likely not, as it is very hard to compare two very general technologies. I’d recommend that you first read about innerspring support and also some basic information on microcoils. You are correct that generally … a pocket spring core costs slightly more than polyfoam or traditional innersprings because they require a more complex construction. Bear in mind too that a foam core usually does best with a solid foundation while a pocket spring will usually do best with a box spring (which can be more expensive).

There is more about the different types of innersprings in post #10 here and in post #16 here . I would pay the most attention to your own careful and objective testing which will tell you how the innerspring performs in combination with the other layers and materials in a mattress (versus using a latex core) and to the quality of the materials above the innerspring which is normally the weakest link in a mattress. You certainly can find a comfortable combination using springs or polyfoam (or even latex if the budget allows).

Nice work not making rash decisions, some people can get carried away trying too many things. Thanks for the post.

Phoenix

19

I’m in the process of putting together my layers, too. I have had several detailed conversations with my intended manufacturer, but have also gotten several different recommendations from different salespeople who work there. I asked for clarification but they are basically saying it’s time to just start somewhere, with what I think is best.

I get where they are coming from but I don’t feel qualified! Fortunately, layers can be swapped and covers can be altered. Still, I’d like feedback…all that shipping costs everyone.

As everyone and their dog now knows, I’m a 135-138lb side sleeper on a Zenhaven with a 1.5" raw unblended 14ILD topper. It’s taken a few experiments and cutting the cover off the topper, but my body has adjusted and this feels like a B+ solution to me. Unfortunately, the boxspring is officially caving in again along with some more minor quality control issues in the mattress, so I’m considering starting over.

I am not sure if it’s too firm or too soft…with the topper, it feels more like it’s just a bit too much pressure on my shoulder from the unstretchy cover on the mattress. Alignment seems pretty good though, which I’ve confirmed with pictures. Maybe just a little sag in the waist area. But I don’t really want my hip to sink in more, I don’t think.

I’m now considering “rebuilding” the Zenhaven as:
my current raw topper 1.5" 14 ILD
wool cover
2" 19 ILD (to approximate the zoned 14 ILD latex)
3" 28 ILD (same)
3" 32 ILD (same)
There would be no bottom 1.5" of N2 as in the ZH but I don’t think it’s actually doing anything down there (right?)

This is one of the builds recommended, minus a top inch of 19. I have two 1.5" layers of 14ILD to play with if needed, and I do want to continue using one of them as a protective and cushy top layer.

I’ve considered if I needed to swap a layer, the 32 could move up into the middle support and I could get a 38-40 ILD base layer. This would make it almost their initial off the cuff recommendation of 3" 19, 3" 32, 3" 40, which I was concerned would be too fluffy on top and too firm on the bottom.

I had originally leaned to a thinner stretch cover, but realized when testing out a pile of raw latex locally that totally uncovered feels a little too unstable and jiggly. There may be a reason most people encase it in wool and cotton, and I still have the topper for a bit of that raw latex feel.

Any red flags here? I am getting samples of materials soon. Thanks in advance for any input!

20

Your prospective build is a very common build, in part because of its gradual progression. To put it in terms instead of ILD’s:
2" Extra Soft
2" Soft
3" Medium
3" Firm

You’re right, you probably won’t feel a fifth layer at the bottom. It depends on your weight and how it is dispersed throughout your body. In other words, short and squat people have larger pressure points than the same weight of person who is long and lean. Usually I find that excepting pregnancy, the 10" depth (firmness is more individual) you have is comfortable for most sleepers up to 250+ lbs.

Yes, your 14 ILD topper and even the 19 ILD layer many consider jiggly or too squishy for their liking. Others love the cradling effect those soft layers give.

I think it goes without saying that if your box spring is caving in, given latex’s flexibility, you will feel its bent, no matter how may layers you have on top of it.

21

Thank you for this response! Yes, I will definitely be replacing the box spring…I am not trying to build a bed to mask the worsening curve!

I am 5’4", 135lbs, and have a 40 inch hip circumference. I do sometimes wonder if men side sleepers are different from females, since we females tend to be a bit hippy-er.

The topper is a 1.5", not 2" (very minor difference!) so it would actually be:
1.5" Extra Soft (14ILD) removable topper
(wool or cotton layer)
2" Soft (19ILD)
3" Soft Medium (28 ILD)
3" Medium (32 ILD)

(Using this particular manufacturers nomenclature. I’ve noticed other manufacturers consider a “medium” as 24-29 and firm as 32.)

They had also recommended (just based off my status as a person under 180lbs and no other info):
3" Soft (19)
3" Medium (32)
3" Firm (40)

The mattress would be 9" but the topper would add (optionally) 1.5"…so a total of 10.5" of latex in the equation of my build, and 9-10.5" in the “standard” build for a person under 180lbs.

Thanks for the help!

22

Hello,

I have been building component mattresses for a couple of years in many combinations with many materials. For what it is worth, if that build still doesn’t relieve the pressure in the way you wanted, I have had good results with a 2 inch layer of 5 pound memory foam in the comfort layers, under a 1-2 inch soft or super soft talalay latex. So for me it ended up being 6 inches 35 ILD Talalay support, 2 inches 28 Talalay"transition" layer, 2 inches 5 pound memory foam, one inch 15 Talalay. It feels soft but supportive, and without the slightly stuck feeling that all memory foam might give to some. There was something about all latex that I could never get to work for my arms falling asleep at night, and I tried every ILD they make in the comfort layer( top 4 inches), 14-28. There was something about having the memory foam in there that took away the pressure. I don’t know if point elasticity was working against me personally or what. I know it flies in the face of reason but there it is. Take that with a grain of salt, and good luck.

23

For what it’s worth, we’ve been having great success with Nest Bedding’s Hybrid Natural Latex mattress (The Owl Natural Latex Hybrid Mattress - Nest Bedding – Nest Bedding®).

It worked right out of the box, no need to swap out latex layers, etc. We’ve had great sleep since. It’s a great combination of pressure relief (no more sore shoulders or hips), while still providing plenty of support (no more achy backs). My wife deals with fibromyalgia, and was in constant pain with every other mattress we tried. She’s been fine on the Nest Bedding Hybrid Natural Latex mattress ever since. It’s the first mattress we’ve come across where we don’t want to get out of bed in the morning because it’s so comfortable. We can’t recommend it highly enough. As soon as we tried it out in the store, we knew that this was a special mattress.

We went through at least 10 different mattresses over a year and half period. We tossed and turned, couldn’t get the pressure relief or back support right, and woke up most mornings in pain and exhausted. We also finally explored the latex option (thanks to this site), and had similar experiences with having to swap out latex layers, having issues with firm wool covers, etc. We got to the point where we almost gave up - and just assumed we wouldn’t be able to get a comfortable, decent night’s sleep again.

We’re lightweight side/combo sleepers, and have been using the Nest Bedding mattress for about 3 months now. No issues at all. We were a little hesitant at first about the EcoFlex quilting layer (Would it give out? Would it be too warm?), but it’s worked out really well. The owner has a post in another thread where he explains why he went with this particular design - given that the traditional latex/wool cover design can often be too firm for some sleepers - and our experience matches his approach. The foam quilting and stretch cover provide great pressure relief, while the Dunlop latex provides excellent support without being too firm, either. Again, it’s a great combination. The nice thing, too, is Nest Bedding’s warranty. Should anything go wrong, the coverage is there. That said, it’s such a well-made product that it’s not really a concern.

We’re definitely relieved to no longer be in the mattress searching loop. Hope this helps - good luck!

24

Hi sweetandsourkiwi.

Great to see that you’ve got so many helpful perspectives and good guidance.

gardenguy is quite right about different people liking different materials and feels… It all is very personal, there are a few more thoughts about the different specs that can affect how soft or firm a foam feels in post #4 here you may wish to peruse. The two most important of these would be the ILD and the compression modulus although there are also other foam properties that will affect the “feel” of a foam material as well outside of just its softness/firmness that are more subjective.

@ diynaturalbedding for chiming with helpful guidance. As always I appreciate your expertise :slight_smile:

@ NestHaven.
Thanks for your update and your helpful contributions. :slight_smile:
I am happy that you are still sleeping Heavenly on your Nest mattress and that you are out of the “mattress searching loop”

Phoenix

25

Thank you Phoenix! I’ve received a super helpful box of samples as well, of several different ILDs in both Dunlop and Talalay. Honestly, nothing beats being able to touch the materials to really feel the difference! I now “get” what people are saying when they say Talalay is bouncy but Dunlop is springy, or that it has a more “refined” feel, or the poundcake/angelfood cake analogy…it’s just hard to picture until you can really touch it.

Even with the samples though, it is daunting to guess how they’d work together in a full size mattress. When I started this journey I thought, okay, three different layers, how tricky can this really be? Once you add in the different cover materials, different options for thickness of the layers, dunlop vs. talalay, the fact there are really more like 5 “firmness” levels available in each…wow! It is much more complex than it seems on the surface. My hat is off to those who attempt the DIY method. And my brain is thinking there is a bigger market for simplified choice zip-off latex models like Spindle and Nest.

Thank you @GardenGuy…I can certainly see where you’re coming from. I have not had this dreaded arm-falling-asleep problem on my all talalay bed yet, but my shoulders are narrower than my hips…maybe that’s it. I will also say to your point, I thought getting maximum point elasticity and zero pressure was the answer but honestly? I don’t actually like the weightless feel! My body feels like it tenses up because it doesn’t feel supported even if it is. (Maybe like sleeping in space?) So it doesn’t seem counterintuitive to me that you wound up needing to dial it back.

And I’ll also say there’s just something to be said for getting used to a mattress…I’ve never loved my mattress but I’ve found it feels more comfortable to me over time. I don’t toss and turn or have pain problems. For a long time I couldn’t “linger” in bed when I wanted to and even that’s changed now. Part of why I still haven’t replaced it even though it’s not quite right—for anyone/everyone who has followed this saga and is just like GOOD GRIEF LADY WHY DO YOU STILL HAVE THE DANG BED?? :wink:

(I would include myself in that group.)

Thank you DIY Bedding and NestHaven as well! I’ve seen your posts on the hybrid latex and they are really compelling…and the idea of being out of thinking about mattresses for 10 or so years is too! (No offense to anyone here or working in the industry…just ready to get on with other life things!)

26

Hi sweetandsourkiwi.

You are so right about being able to touch and feel the Talalay and Dunlop latex and the samples vs sleeping on it for a while… it has always been a difficult marketing dilemma for the committed latex brands and producers to tell this story. Also, the point about getting used to a new mattress is very important, it does take a little time for our body (and minds) to adjust to the mattress and the mattress to you and to get used to sleeping on a new surface.

Thanks for all of your updates. and keep us posted when you have a chance.

Phoenix

27

I have a question regarding layers. This is my configuration from SleepEZ.
Natural Latex Mattress
Queen / 9"
Top: Blended Talalay - Soft
2nd: Blended Talalay - Firm
Bottom: Blended Talalay - Firm

My wife and I have been sleeping on this since November. She is thinking she needs the bed to be firmer because she has not been sleeping through the night.
Would it be possible to put the 2" soft layer in between the two 3" firm layers? Would help to firm up the bed and not destroy the 2" layer?

Thanks!

28

Dear Phoenix, I’ve been following the mattress underground for a while to find my own mattress, though not very successfully. Now wondering for an infant. I just got gifted an old futon that consists of cotton with a thin layer of cheap foam in the middle. I am taking it apart, took the foam layer out and intending to build a crib mattress out of a quarter of the full sized futon. I plan to put it on a wood slatted bottom, so breathability would be given. I know with SIDS, babies are supposed to sleep firm and not sink into the mattress to prevent suffocation. I want to buy a wool waterproof mattress pad/cover from holy lamb organics. Should I get a 1inch layer of coco coir or something else to turn the cotton futon into a qualified infant mattress? I could also fold a wool blanket and add it on top of the cotton before sewing up the cotton cover. Any ideas would be welcome. I would consider buying a latex layer if that could make it an option for me to use a twin size rather than crib size and thus be able to switch sides with the baby more easily. We want to co-sleep and currently my husband and me share a full mattress, so having a crib adjacent to the mattress on my side would not give me much room (but possible) to have her sleep/nurse on my other side. I once bought a 3inch firm layer on dunlop latex and had to return it. i think laying on my back worked fine but on the side gave me intense backache. Now in pregnancy I am supposed to just sleep on the side, which always gets tricky for me… So in theory a latex dunlop medium layer might be a good investment, though maybe expendable. The used mattress we’re using is pretty good when I sleep kind of diagonal; something in between belly and side sleeping, but as the baby grows i have to be just on the side.