Great to see that youāve got so many helpful perspectives and good guidance.
gardenguy is quite right about different people liking different materials and feelsā¦ It all is very personal, there are a few more thoughts about the different specs that can affect how soft or firm a foam feels in post #4 here you may wish to peruse. The two most important of these would be the ILD and the compression modulus although there are also other foam properties that will affect the āfeelā of a foam material as well outside of just its softness/firmness that are more subjective.
@ diynaturalbedding for chiming with helpful guidance. As always I appreciate your expertise
@ NestHaven.
Thanks for your update and your helpful contributions.
I am happy that you are still sleeping Heavenly on your Nest mattress and that you are out of the āmattress searching loopā
Thank you Phoenix! Iāve received a super helpful box of samples as well, of several different ILDs in both Dunlop and Talalay. Honestly, nothing beats being able to touch the materials to really feel the difference! I now āgetā what people are saying when they say Talalay is bouncy but Dunlop is springy, or that it has a more ārefinedā feel, or the poundcake/angelfood cake analogyā¦itās just hard to picture until you can really touch it.
Even with the samples though, it is daunting to guess how theyād work together in a full size mattress. When I started this journey I thought, okay, three different layers, how tricky can this really be? Once you add in the different cover materials, different options for thickness of the layers, dunlop vs. talalay, the fact there are really more like 5 āfirmnessā levels available in eachā¦wow! It is much more complex than it seems on the surface. My hat is off to those who attempt the DIY method. And my brain is thinking there is a bigger market for simplified choice zip-off latex models like Spindle and Nest.
Thank you @GardenGuyā¦I can certainly see where youāre coming from. I have not had this dreaded arm-falling-asleep problem on my all talalay bed yet, but my shoulders are narrower than my hipsā¦maybe thatās it. I will also say to your point, I thought getting maximum point elasticity and zero pressure was the answer but honestly? I donāt actually like the weightless feel! My body feels like it tenses up because it doesnāt feel supported even if it is. (Maybe like sleeping in space?) So it doesnāt seem counterintuitive to me that you wound up needing to dial it back.
And Iāll also say thereās just something to be said for getting used to a mattressā¦Iāve never loved my mattress but Iāve found it feels more comfortable to me over time. I donāt toss and turn or have pain problems. For a long time I couldnāt ālingerā in bed when I wanted to and even thatās changed now. Part of why I still havenāt replaced it even though itās not quite rightāfor anyone/everyone who has followed this saga and is just like GOOD GRIEF LADY WHY DO YOU STILL HAVE THE DANG BED??
(I would include myself in that group.)
Thank you DIY Bedding and NestHaven as well! Iāve seen your posts on the hybrid latex and they are really compellingā¦and the idea of being out of thinking about mattresses for 10 or so years is too! (No offense to anyone here or working in the industryā¦just ready to get on with other life things!)
You are so right about being able to touch and feel the Talalay and Dunlop latex and the samples vs sleeping on it for a whileā¦ it has always been a difficult marketing dilemma for the committed latex brands and producers to tell this story. Also, the point about getting used to a new mattress is very important, it does take a little time for our body (and minds) to adjust to the mattress and the mattress to you and to get used to sleeping on a new surface.
Thanks for all of your updates. and keep us posted when you have a chance.
I have a question regarding layers. This is my configuration from SleepEZ.
Natural Latex Mattress
Queen / 9"
Top: Blended Talalay - Soft
2nd: Blended Talalay - Firm
Bottom: Blended Talalay - Firm
My wife and I have been sleeping on this since November. She is thinking she needs the bed to be firmer because she has not been sleeping through the night.
Would it be possible to put the 2" soft layer in between the two 3" firm layers? Would help to firm up the bed and not destroy the 2" layer?
Dear Phoenix, Iāve been following the mattress underground for a while to find my own mattress, though not very successfully. Now wondering for an infant. I just got gifted an old futon that consists of cotton with a thin layer of cheap foam in the middle. I am taking it apart, took the foam layer out and intending to build a crib mattress out of a quarter of the full sized futon. I plan to put it on a wood slatted bottom, so breathability would be given. I know with SIDS, babies are supposed to sleep firm and not sink into the mattress to prevent suffocation. I want to buy a wool waterproof mattress pad/cover from holy lamb organics. Should I get a 1inch layer of coco coir or something else to turn the cotton futon into a qualified infant mattress? I could also fold a wool blanket and add it on top of the cotton before sewing up the cotton cover. Any ideas would be welcome. I would consider buying a latex layer if that could make it an option for me to use a twin size rather than crib size and thus be able to switch sides with the baby more easily. We want to co-sleep and currently my husband and me share a full mattress, so having a crib adjacent to the mattress on my side would not give me much room (but possible) to have her sleep/nurse on my other side. I once bought a 3inch firm layer on dunlop latex and had to return it. i think laying on my back worked fine but on the side gave me intense backache. Now in pregnancy I am supposed to just sleep on the side, which always gets tricky for meā¦ So in theory a latex dunlop medium layer might be a good investment, though maybe expendable. The used mattress weāre using is pretty good when I sleep kind of diagonal; something in between belly and side sleeping, but as the baby grows i have to be just on the side.
Regarding an infant mattress, whatever you deem it worthy for a mattress, is worthy. Regarding SIDS, a firm mattress has been recommended by some and coconut coir most certainly is firm! Cotton is firm too. For interestās sake, there have been studies done on a correlation between spinal misalignment, specifically called Atlanto-Occipital hypermobility, and SIDS.
Keep in mind that at about 2 1/2 months, your infant will start being able to roll over, at least that is when my current 5 month old started to roll.
Personally, I cosleep with my babies on latex for the first few months and find that latexās motion isolation compared to our old spring mattress, makes a world of difference. There is no dipping or sliding of baby down the hill into me anymore and when I put baby on it to sleep for naps, it is not noisy.
Three inches is unusually thin for a mattress. Most adults need six inches minimum. I found that during pregnancy six inches was no longer sufficient for me and I had to bump it up to nine inches. I wrote a post on pregnancy, sleep and latex mattresses here if you want to read of someone elseās experience.
I wish you the best of sleep possible before baby gets here and of course afterwards, butā¦ babies.
Is there any inherent disadvantage to putting a softer latex layer under a firmer latex layer? I recently purchased an all natural latex mattress which consists of three layers. The bottom layer is 6" of firm latex followed by a 2" medium latex layer then a 2" soft latex layer on top. At first it felt perfect, providing good support and comfort, but after the first 2 months I started to experience some back pain as the top layer became a little too soft. I then swapped the top softer layer to the middle and the medium firmness to the top, which solved the low back pain problem, and still provided comfort. Just wondering if thatās a no no? I also have the option of trading my softer top layer in for a medium firmness at no charge to me, but I have a feeling that may wind up being too firm overall, creating pressure points. I think the arrangement I have now will work, but again, are there any disadvantages to having the softer layer under a firmer layer?
Thanks
I have also done this with a Talalay 19ILD for the comfort layer and Dunlop in 28ILD for the base layer.
(using coiled springs under Medium layer) Now I have the Talalay on the bottom and Medium as my comfort layer. Seem to fit me better.
Good to see you back here on the TMU Forum . Thanks for your question.
The comfort layers in a mattress are arranged for the best way of supporting a userās weight, which is an estimate based on the manufacturerās experience with their customers. Generally speaking, the softer layer goes on top of the firmer, but there is nothing wrong with putting the softer layer underneath a firmer one to give you the preferred comfort you are seeking.
You could also try removing the soft latex layer completely which would give you an idea of how a āmedium firmnessā may feel before making an exchange. IMO, if you feel that your current setup is providing the correct support and comfort for your PPP/ Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences, it is perfectly fine to keep things as they are. This configuration should cause no harm to the mattressās other components.
Would be interested to hear more comments later on your experiment after a sleep trial periodā¦
Thank for the reply. After sleeping a few nights with the medium firmness layer on top of the soft layer, Iāve decided to go a different route. Support was really good, and although pressure points werenāt really a problem, it just didnāt feel all that comfortable. After talking with the people over at Boulder Foam Source, I discovered another option. They are going to order me a new top layer that is in between the firmness of a soft and medium. As it was, the three layered all natural latex mattress, with the layers arranged from firm to soft on the top, was almost perfect. Comfort was great, but I could tell my spine wasnāt being perfectly supported because of the slight stiffness in my low back in the morning. Iām hoping that slightly increasing the firmness of the top layer does the trick.
Thank you for the reply. After sleeping a few nights with the medium firmness layer on top of the soft layer, Iāve decided to go a different route. Support was really good, and although pressure points werenāt really a problem, it just didnāt feel all that comfortable. After talking with the people over at Boulder Foam Source, I discovered another option. They are going to order me a new top layer that is in between the firmness of a soft and medium. As it was, the three layered all natural latex mattress, with the layers arranged from firm to soft on the top, was almost perfect. Comfort was great, but I could tell my spine wasnāt being perfectly supported because of the slight stiffness in my low back in the morning. Iām hoping that slightly increasing the firmness of the top layer does the trick.
Iām not exactly sure what the ILD is but Iāll find out. Boulder Foam Source in Boulder, CO keeps firm medium and soft natural latex in stock, but they said thereās something like 14 different firmness levels available if you need to fine tune your mattress. I believe they ship anywhere.
OK - maybe I will reach out to them, I have been on there website before but I purchased from Sleep On Latex and Arizona mattress.
If you find out what you purchased I am interested in the information and what your out come is.
Reconstructing Tempurpedic Cloud Prima suggestions.
My 4 year old tempurpedic started sagging quite a bit and gave me horrible back cramps. I opened it up and noticed that the middle layer between top 5lb memory foam and very firm polyurethane base foam is extremely soft and airy (which does not fit into any of the schemes described in the above article). I cut that layer out and here is the result. Here is a picture of me laying on the side (I am a side sleeper):
Top layer (top two stripes) is now about 2.8 inch memory foam in pretty good shape (slightly soft but no sagging) and
Bottom layer is firm polyurethane foam still in good shape.[/b]
This improved back problems dramatically, since the mattress is no longer sagging, but it is not completely comfortable either. There are uncomfortable pressure points around hips and shoulders, and there is still some mild middle/upper back aches.
Laying on the edge exaggerates sinking slightly, but obviously memory layer provides no support (although it is soft and comfortable). What would you recommend to improve this mattress? Should I add a firm 3āā latex layer in the middle? Replace memory foam with latex topper? Add medium of firm ILD high density HR foam (>2lb) as a middle layers? Any suggestions would be appreciated, thank you.
A bit more information. I found here (TEMPUR-Pedic Cloud Mattress Reviews: The Cloud Series Explained - The Sleep Judge) that the firmness of basic tempur memory foam is close to 15 ild, and the firmness of the base foam is about 32. So maybe an intermediate 3āā layer of firmness around 25 ild would be a good idea? Would there be a difference between foam (high quality 2.6lb density) and natural latex as a middle layer, assuming they have the same firmness around 25 ild?
Reconstructing Tempurpedic Cloud Prima suggestions.
My 4 year old tempurpedic started sagging quite a bit and gave me horrible back cramps. I opened it up and noticed that the middle layer between top memory foam and polyurethane base foam is extremely soft and airy (which does not fit into any of the schemes described in the above article). I cut that layer out and here is the result. Here is a picture of me laying on the side (I am a side sleeper):
Top layer (top two stripes) is now about 2.8 inch memory foam (5.3lb, 15 ILD firmness) in pretty good shape (slightly soft but no sagging) and
Bottom layer is firm polyurethane foam (32 ILD firmness) still in good shape.
This improved back problems dramatically, since the mattress is no longer sagging, but it is not completely comfortable either. There are uncomfortable pressure points around hips and shoulders, and there is still some mild middle/upper back aches.
Laying on the edge exaggerates sinking slightly, but obviously memory layer provides no support (although it is soft and comfortable).
What would you recommend to improve this mattress? Should I add a 3āā latex layer or HR foam in the middle with medium firmness around 25 ild? Would there be a difference between foam (high quality 2.6lb density) and natural latex as a middle layer, assuming they have the same firmness around 25 ild? Any suggestions would be appreciated, thank you.
I think you definitely need to add a middle layer of medium density foam, somewhere around 25 ILD, which should improve comfort considerably. Before I bought my current mattress two months ago, I was sleeping on a mostly all latex mattress which started failing around 15 years after I purchased it. The bottom layer was 6" of firm latex, the middle layer was 3" medium density polyurethane foam and the top was 3" of soft latex. The layer that failed was the polyurethane foam. So I placed the soft latex layer over the firm bottom layer. This solved the sagging issue and low back pain in the morning, but it was not very comfortable at all. I then placed a medium firmness layer of polyurethane foam in the middle, which made the mattress a lot more comfortable. I continued to use this mattress for another three years, until the top layer and mattress cover failed. You need a middle layer to transition from The firm to the soft top layer.
@gme109: Thank you for the reply, this is very helpful. Since you had experience with both polyurethane foam and latex, what if I add a medium firmness latex instead of polyurethane foam? If they have the same firmness do you think latex would have a different feel (more bouncy?) or there would be no difference through the memory foam top layer? My consideration is that good quality natural latex 3āā layer will probably last longer than 2.6 lb HR foam, which will give me more options in the future. Another thought is that, since Iāve never had latex mattress before, perhaps medium latex layer on top of memory foam might feel better? Any thoughts? Thank you!
I would definitely go with a latex layer. Like you said it will last longer, and it has a better feel compared to polyurethane foam.
Before my last mattress, the one I had for 18 years, I had a memory foam mattress. I still have the components of that mattress, which I barely used because I didnāt like the feel it. It wasnāt a Tempur-Pedic, I believe it was a supple-pedic mattress. The mattress was just too soft and lacked support. It had a 3" firm layer of polyurethane foam on the bottom, a 3" medium polyurethane foam layer in the center, and a soft 3" layer of memory foam on top. I tried to make that mattress work by replacing the bottom layer with an extra firm layer of polyurethane foam, but it still lacked support. One thing Iāve figured out with all of these mattresses is, 3" middle and top layers donāt work for me. A 6" firm bottom layer followed by 2-2" layers on top provide better support for my body. My spine doesnāt stay in alignment with 3" of soft on top and 3" of medium in the middle.
