Ive had a hard time looking for mattresses over the past 2 months because of how hard it is to find a dealer who will release any spec information about the brands they sell. Today i had a long talk and was given a speil by a “sales rep” for sealy mattresses about how foam densities dont determine the durability of a mattress, but only the feel. He explained how they, at one time, put two foams (from competing vendors) under a microscope, and verified the same densities, but the two performed differently. At the time i felt as if that was more or less not the point because the standard, from my understanding, is that density does matter and the higher the density, generally the higher the durability, and hence, from a customers POV, the higher the quality. But, being the “noob” in the room, i wasn’t totally sure of this after hearing the sales rep.
AFter arriving home, and in doing research, i found this website.
Polyurethane foam association…sounds pretty “standardish”. Having had experience w/ standards it seems logical the industry must have them.
Is this still a good authority on the current understanding of foam density? Or any other foam spec for that matter. Seeing as this paper is fairly outdated, is there a better more authoritative source of information on the current understanding of “foam density”. Polyurethane in my case. I do realize different foams and materials will have different properties and that the “density” may apply diffferently in those cases.
From the conclusion of these papers it does seem, although only statistically probable, that higher densities means higher performance in terms of durability. Any information or correction on this would be greatly appreciated.
If you let me know your city or zip code I’d be happy to let you know about the better options or possibilities in your area where the odds that you will be able to find out the information you need to make an informed choice would be higher.
The information you are getting is misleading and is actually the other way around. In very basic terms there are two different types of specifications that apply to polyfoam and memory foam materials. One type is what I call “comfort” specs such as firmness, resilience, and others that contribute to how a mattress “feels”. Density has little to do with this because lower density and less durable foam materials can be formulated to have a very similar “feel” and firmness to higher density foam materials of the same type … they just won’t maintain their properties and firmness for as long as higher density materials.
On the other hand … there are also what I call “quality/durability” specs which determine the durability and useful life of the foam material and the single biggest factor in the durability of a foam material that will determine how long it maintains it’s original properties is the density of the foam material although this is not directly related to the actual firmness, feel, and properties that are formulated into the foam.
Latex is a little bit different from polyfoam and memory foam because the density of latex is directly related to firmness but in general terms any type or blend of latex is a very durable material relative to other types of foam.
While there is no way to quantify how long any mattress will last for a specific person or predict exactly when you will decide to replace it because it is no longer suitable or comfortable for you (because this is the only real measure of durability or the useful life of a mattress that really matters) because there are too many unknowns and variables involved that are unique to each person … if a mattress is well inside a suitable comfort/support range and isn’t close to the edge of being too soft when it is new (see post #2 here) and you have confirmed that it meets the minimum quality/durability specs that are suggested in the guidelines here then it would be reasonable to expect a useful lifetime in the range of 7 - 10 years and with higher quality and more durable materials like latex or higher density memory foam or polyfoam (in the comfort layers especially) it would likely be in the higher end of the range or even longer and the chances that you would have additional “bonus time” would be higher as well.
There is also more detailed information about the variables that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress (and the materials inside it) in post #4 here as well.
[quote]AFter arriving home, and in doing research, i found this website.
Polyurethane foam association…sounds pretty “standardish”. Having had experience w/ standards it seems logical the industry must have them.
Is this still a good authority on the current understanding of foam density? Or any other foam spec for that matter. Seeing as this paper is fairly outdated, is there a better more authoritative source of information on the current understanding of “foam density”. Polyurethane in my case. I do realize different foams and materials will have different properties and that the “density” may apply diffferently in those cases.
From the conclusion of these papers it does seem, although only statistically probable, that higher densities means higher performance in terms of durability. Any information or correction on this would be greatly appreciated. [/quote]
I would consider the PFA to be a reliable and informative site about polyurethane foam (polyfoam) and memory foam and if If you are interested in learning more technical information about polyfoam then a good place to start would be the Polyurethane Foam Association or the American Chemistry Council site here and in particular the links in post #5 here which discuss the relationship between density and durability. There are more links with even more detailed information yet about polyurethane foam in post #2 here (hopefully all of the links are still active).
Any knowledgeable manufacturer in the industry or knowledgeable foam suppliers will confirm the relationship between polyurethane and memory foam density and durability.
Sure. I live in Barre, Vermont. Zip code is 05641.
No doubt that wouldn’t have been the ONLY specification id of asked him for (he just kind of went on a rant after i mentioned it). Density is only one of many. I was only interested in Density because it helps to determine the general durability of those types of foams. I also asked him for as much information as he could give me (said he’d get back to me–not holding my breathe), but he wasn’t sure he could get me much information, if any. I would have also been interested in the ILD, fatigue %, and possibly the sag factor to help aid in determining the quality.
Is it possible that their foams (say sealy) are formulated in such a way that density doesn’t matter? So in other word do i have to compare apples to apples (IE sealy to sealy) to get performance specs or are most foams not that different?
But in general if i used the mattress within reason shouldn’t we be able to tell, to a certain degree at least, that its likely the mattress will be more durable considering the material in it? How different are polyfoams anyways? Are densities useless unless we know more about the construction of the material? Or at least who manufactured it? Can polyfoams really differ that much? Again i guess im interested in comparing apples to apples here. So a foam made for a sealy might not be able to be compared to a foam made for a serta mattress because the foams differ in “chemical construction” even at the same “density”? Is that right?
So if thats right how would i rate a sealy foam “layer”?
In many cases you would be doing well just to get the information in this article that you would need to know to make an informed choice about the quality and durability of the materials and more than that wouldn’t be particularly meaningful or useful anyway.
While knowing the specs that can affect the quality and durability of the layers and components in a mattress is always important … unless you have a great deal of knowledge and experience with different types of mattress materials and components and their specs and different layering combinations and mattress designs and how they combine together and can translate them into your own “real life” experience that can be unique to you (which would generally be a very small percentage of people) … I would tend to avoid using complex combinations of specifications to try and predict how a mattress will feel or perform for you or to evaluate the “quality” of the mattress. When you try and choose a mattress based on complex combinations of specs that you may not fully understand or only based on specs for single layers or components that may not be as relevant or meaningful as you believe they are then the most common outcome is “information overload” and “paralysis by analysis”.
No. The major brands such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta all tend to use lower quality materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors that will tend to soften or break down prematurely relative to the price you pay which is why I would generally suggest avoiding all of them completely along with any mattress where you aren’t able to find out the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see the guidelines here along with post #3 here and post #12 here and post #404 here).
Subject to first confirming that any retailer or manufacturer on the list you wish to deal with is completely transparent (see this article) and to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines here … the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in and around the Topsham area (which would include Barre, VT) are listed in post #4 here.
There is also a list for the Burlington, VT area in post #4 here.
In its simplest form choosing the “best possible” mattress for any particular person really comes down to FIRST finding a few knowledgeable and transparent retailers and/or manufacturers (either locally or online) that sell the types of mattresses that you are most interested in that are in a budget range you are comfortable with and that you have confirmed will provide you with the all the information you need about the materials and components inside the mattresses they sell so you will be able to make informed choices and meaningful comparisons between mattresses and then …
Careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial) to make sure that a mattress is a good match for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP … and/or that you are comfortable with the options you have available to return, exchange, or “fine tune” the mattress and any costs involved if you can’t test a mattress in person or aren’t confident that your mattress is a suitable choice.
Checking to make sure that there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress you are considering relative to your weight range that could compromise the durability and useful life of the mattress.
Comparing your finalists for “value” based on #1 and #2 and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.
I agree that i probably dont want every spec available, but there must be certain metrics that are fairly neutral across the board. Depending on the layer im interested the fatigue % would be good as it would measure the loss of strength regardless of the material. The ILD will tell me how much strength the material has and would at least be allow me to gauge within the models, the variation of feel and strength it has to hold parts of my body up. Sag factor will also help to determine the quality of the material (IE HR VS HD), aswell as what the foam characteristics as i sink in deeper. I wouldn’t go overboard, for sure. But the more information i can get the better.
But as far as i understand you, are the densities meaningful at all? Do manufacturers vary so much, in say polyfoam, that a 1.4 density could outperform a 2 density? Im confused at this. Is this technically possible?
As far as location in concerned, the closest i can come to, in terms of purchase price, will probably only be a name brand companies that sell in my area. I dont have the money to buy expensive stuff like latex and pricier models from smaller chains. Mattressland doesn’t offer a sleep guarantee like many of the other stores do. Which although they probably go through the manufacturer for most of the ones that do, at least it offers me a way to exchange a mattress for a mattress. So unless the manufacturer offers the guarantee, if i buy it, its mine for life. That, to me, is a deal breaker. But i will check out the organichearts place and see what they have to offer (though i doubt ill be able to afford it). Beyond that its the barre/waterbury area for me. Unless theres something closer. Ill do a google map search for mattresses again and see if i missed something.
I think, at the moment, all i can do is just scrutinize, to hell and back, the mattress stores i find in the hopes to find someone that will give me a good and acceptable deal.
Im going to 2 more stores today in the hopes something sticks out.
I think I’ve answered this in detail in my previous replies but the short version is that in an apples to apples comparison and if you are defining “outperform” only in terms of how long the material will maintain it’s original properties and not in terms of the properties themselves that you can feel (firmness etc) then the odds would be overwhelming that a 2 lb density polyfoam layer would last much longer than a 1.4 lb version of the same material.
The other foam specs you are looking at would be mostly meaningless in terms of helping you decide on a mattress that is suitable for you and in almost all cases they won’t be available to you anyway.