Questions about foam mattress pads (semi-diy mattress)

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hi all,

I’ve been lurking on here on an off for a couple of years, and am finally at the point where I’m desperate enough to post.

I’m probably giving more info than necessary, so my really basic questions are at the bottom if you just want to skip to those.

Background on me:
120 lbs female
Used to be a side sleeper, but have been 90% back sleeper (with pillow propped under knees) for at least a year now.
28 years old
Sleep disruptions started at 24 (not sleeping deeply/frequently waking up)
Back pain during sleep started at 26 (with a very old spring mattress) and is still ongoing through 3 different mattresses
-Have done a sleep study, been to several different chiropractors and a physical therapist, and have had x-rays done- no diagnosable conditions, just the conclusion that my thoracic back muscles (mid back) are “unusually tight”

Basically, I’ve found that if my mattress (or mattress pad) is too soft, then I wake up with a burning feeling in my back muscles- probably from them tightening to support my spine- and if it’s too hard, it’s more my actual spine that feels incredibly tight, like I need to crack it in 20 different places. I’ve been trying to find the feeling of sinking through soft layers to an underlying base that is firm and offers support, but I’m having a very hard time finding that middle ground for myself, since I’m on the lighter side and often don’t sink down far enough.

The two beds I’ve slept on that actually gave me this feeling belonged to other people and were discontinued, so I was unable to get specs on them to recreate them. Most memory foam has been too soft for me, so I bought a firm all-latex mattress from Costco (they don’t have it anymore so I don’t have specs). By itself if was too firm (which I was kind of expecting), so I bought a 2" latex topper (http://www.absolutecomfortonsale.com/natural-latex-mattress-toppers.htm). The medium soft was too soft, so I went with the medium-firm and thought that it was working for me, but it has recently felt too firm in combination with the mattress (I’ve been waking up with a stiff spine). I experimented and folded it in half so that I was sleeping on 4" of the latex, which helped initially but then I suspect wasn’t enough support- my lower and middle back muscles started aching.

So I’m basically back to the drawing board- I’ve considered getting 1" of 5.3 lb memory foam to try over or under the latex, but I’m also wondering if basic (poly?)foam (not latex, not memory) is really that awful- I think that very top layers of the beds that worked best for me in the past may have utilized with kind of foam. I’ve been looking at foamorder.com, because they’re one of the only places that sells memory foam mattress pads as thin as 1", and they do also have regular foam pads that they claim are higher quality, but I really have no way of telling quality with regular foam.

The real questions, then, are:
-Is regular polyfoam that crappy, and where/how does someone find higher quality polyfoam?
-If I’m working with a very firm latex foam base, and trying to layer softer foam on top of that, is it best to go for variety (eg. 1" polyfoam, 1" memory foam, 2" latex), or just try to find one more layer to go on top of my 2" latex pad?
-Is 5lb density memory foam the best quality, or is it more an issue of softness preference (my understanding is that lower density memory foam is softer, but does that also mean it’s lower quality)?
-Does anyone know of a down-alternative pillow topper that isn’t total crap and doesn’t immediately get flattened/lumpy? I’ve also been looking into those but I know that on a long enough timeline, they all fail more quickly than most foam pads.
-Experiences/opinions on www.absolutecomfortonsale.com and www.foamorder.com? Absolute comfort is one of the few places that allows you to return a mattress topper after trying it, and foamorder is one of the only places where you can get a 1" memory foam pad.

…I kind of just want to try another cotsco mattress since their return policy is so stellar, but their mattress selection is a bummer right now.

2

Hi aehome,

Post #2 here and the posts it links to has some topper guidelines that may be useful.

No … some polyfoam is good quality but it depends on the density. The use of low density polyfoam is the biggest issue … not polyfoam itself. I would look for a minimum of 1.8 lbs if you are looking at conventional polyfoam and if you are looking for the best quality then HR (high resilience) polyfoam (starting at 2.5 lb density) is the best quality of all and has some of the qualities of latex (higher resilience, good compression modulus, good durability etc). Post #4 here has some sources for polyfoam of any type or quality. Local foam shops may also be a good option.

The type of material you use in a topper is based on personal preference and there is no specific reason to go with this type of combination. While it may happen to work well for you … if anything these types of complex layerings are much more difficult to predict how they may feel and perform for you. I personally would tend to focus on materials or combinations I was familiar with rather than unknown combinations.

That depends on how you define quality. Density is most closely connected to durability so a 5 lb memory foam will generally be more durable than a 4 lb memory foam but there are many people who prefer lower density because they like how it feels better (lower density is usually faster response, less durable, and less temperature sensitive although this can vary widely depending on the chemical formula that is used). You can see some of the different properties of memory foam in post #9 here. 4 lb memory foam is in the mid range of density and I usually don’t suggest going lower than this.

I think the best way to buy bedding (including a down alternative topper) is to deal with a retail outlet that is knowledgeable and can give you the benefit of their knowledge and experience about the products they carry. Most of the better ones put some good research into the products they carry and can give you the benefit of their research. Without this there are so many down alternative or fiberbed products on the market from cheap and low quality to more costly and better quality that you are really depending on the luck of the draw if you deal with someone that doesn’t have specific longer term experience with a particular product compared to others. Post #10 here about mattress pads has some good resources and post #26 here about sheets and bedding has some good links as well. You can see a few fiberbed toppers here that also have good ratings but reviews tend to be based more on the initial experience of users shortly after a purchase and may not reflect longer term durability and fiberbeds as a group tend not to be as durable as natural fibers like wool or good quality foam toppers.

Both have been in business for a long time and I wouldn’t hesitate to deal with either of them. As you pointed out … a good return policy can be important because when you are buying a topper to some degree you are going by trial and error and a mistake in terms of foam type, density, or thickness is easy to make if you haven’t tested a specific combination in person.

In general when you are buying a topper that you haven’t tried in person … the three most important parts of your choice are personal experience on the combination (or a very similar combination) you will be sleeping on (mattress and topper), the knowledge and experience of the retail store or manufacturer you are buying from who can give you better guidance based on their experience, and the return policy or tehe retailer or manufacturer you are buying from in case you make a mistake and “best guess” (which is the best you can do without personal experience on a combination) turns out not to work as well as you hoped.

Phoenix

3

Phoenix, you said:

Did you not mean to say “less durable”?

4

Hi Bedimpediment,

Oops … that’s exactly what I meant to say (now corrected).

Thanks for catching my mistake

Phoenix

5

Thanks so much, I formulated that post and questions during a pretty brutal morning and they weren’t very well thought out. I also typed a response that apparently never went through (my internet can be unreliable), but I basically did a bit more digging through the articles and some of the forum posts on here, and was able to get a better idea of what I think my exact problem is/what I need to know more about.

I’m pretty sure that with my current bedding situation- very firm latex mattress (unknown ild) and 2 inch latex mattress pad (dunlop from absolute comfort, 5.3 lb density and 24-27 IFD- no ILD listed), there isn’t enough cushion for my hips to sink in before hitting the firmer latex underneath. Consequently, the inward curve of my lower back isn;t being cradled, and at the same time, the pad isn’t letting my shoulders sink down enough to be low enough/even with my hips. My upper back is very stiff and sore in the morning. The other options I’ve tried have been too soft (latex pad over a very low quality memory foam mattress or latex pad folded to 4" thickness)- my hips sink in and my lower back has some cushion at least, but my shoulders don’t sink in enough for proper alignment- my upper back doesn’t feel quite so stiff, but it still hurts a good bit when I wake up (and my lower back/bum start hurting!)

What I’d like to do is add 1-2 comfort layers in addition to the latex topper- a kind if progressive construction, since my attempt at differential with the mattress pad was a fail. I’d also rather not go too far over an investment of $300, since I would eventually like to get a new mattress but don’t want to do so until I’m in a different living space that allows for a queen. I’m just not sure what the safest bet would be in terms of what kind of comfort layer to add (I realize that I’m kind of gambling no matter what). I’ve considered getting a 2" and a 1" 5.3 lb memory foam pad from foamorder.com, so that I can play with different configurations and thicknesses (I think I’d most likely try it underneath?), especially since there is a 90 day return period. I’ve also considered getting something softer to put on top of my current pad, such as an hr polyfoam, talalay, or possibly wool (although it sounds like wool compresses over time- can’t tell if that works for me or against me). I’ve even thought of just getting the 2.5" HD foam pad offered on foamorder since it’s only $60, but something tells me that won’t quite work for me. Woolenmill.com offers a 30 day comfort trial as well, but I don’t want to rely too much on return policies.

So basically, any thoughts on what might be a good comfort layer material, what thickness might make the most sense, and if I should be adding a layer over or under my current pad? Also if it sounds like my assessment of the situation is correct and whether I’ve given enough info to be of use.

6

Hi aehome,

IFD and ILD are basically the same thing. One stands for Indentation force deflection and the other one for Indentation load deflection. IFD is more commonly used for polyfoam and ILD for latex (if the latex has an ILD rating because some only go by density). Dunlop also has a higher compression modulus than Talalay (gets firmer faster when you sink into it) so a 2" dunlop topper over a firm Dunlop core would be quite firm for most people. I think your “analysis” is probably accurate and shows a good basic understanding of the many interacting factors involved in pressure relief and alignment. I would also be aware that the 5.3 lb 100% natural Dunlop sold by Absolutecomfortonsale may be a little firmer than they indicate (you can see some approximate density / ILD comparisons for 100% natural Dunlop in post #2 here).

The current construction you have would be more of a progressive construction than differential already (your comfort layer would need to “borrow” from the layer below it for most people because it is only 2" thick) but they are really just concepts rather than specific constructions so there would be an argument that it was either depending on how it interacts with you. The idea of a differential construction is that the comfort layer is thick and soft enough all by itself that it doesn’t need any “help” from the middle layers for pressure relief and can go directly on top of a much firmer layer with a much firmer ILD or (differential) and is thick enough so you don’t feel the “transition” between the layers. Once you have a reference point though then making changes would be based more on your actual experience and “symptoms” which would be more important than which type of design it is closest to.

I should clarify as well that I would consider your 2" latex layer would be a topper or “layer” rather than a “mattress pad” (just to save me the confusion of reading “mattress pad” and being unsure what you are referring to). A mattress pad typically refers to a thinner pad and is made of a fiber like wool, cotton, or a synthetic (like a down alternative although once again a thick mattress pad could be similar to a thin topper because there is no specific definition for either.

There isn’t a “formula” that you can use for choosing a topper because everyone is different but there are some guidelines in post #2 here that may be helpful. The choice between memory foam and latex is strictly one of preference. I would keep in mind that your Dunlop top layer is fairly firm so you may want to add a softer layer on top and use it for the transition layer although if your Dunlop topper is soft enough or if you prefer a firmer surface feel or being more “on the mattress” than “in the mattress” then latex over memory foam also has a rather unique feel that some people like (including me) with a firmer more resilient sleeping surface with some slower response and sinking in underneath it. If the layers on top of the memory foam are too thick and insulating or if the memory foam is too temperature sensitive then it may remain too firm to provide good pressure relief so it’s more traditional and common and possible “safer” to use the softer foam on top though which would allow you to sink in a little more although of course experimenting would be the only way to know which was best with the specific layers you had.

I would also only buy only one layer at a time instead of trying to deal with the much more complex and unpredictable variables involved with multiple layers that you haven’t tried. I would also tend towards materials that you are familiar with and have tested or slept on in person.

Phoenix

7

Ah, those links were super helpful, thanks!

I’ve also enjoyed the sinking feeling of memory foam with another layer on top of it; I’m going to try a 3" novaform gel memory foam topper that I forgot I was storing at my parents house and see how that does underneath of the latex. I suspect it will probably be too thick and soft, but I may as well try all of my available options first. I guess I’ll go from there- hopefully I won’t have to keep coming back with more questions! This site is wonderful though, I wish I had found it before I started my “mattress journey” 3 years ago instead of while I was in the middle of it.

8

Hi aehome,

That makes sense to me and even if it’s not quite right it will still give you good information that you can use as a reference point (such as “I like this “feel” but I need to make the memory foam layer thinner so I don’t sink down as far over the course of the night and wake up with a back ache”).

You’re always welcome to come back with as many questions as you like … and of course your feedback once you have worked out your final configuration is also welcome :slight_smile:

Phoenix

9

Well I had a feeling I’d be back with more questions! I’m apparently terrible at being brief, so thank you ahead of time for bearing with me :slight_smile:

As suspected, the 3" topper was awful and way too soft. I ended up trying a 2" 5lb Sensus memory foam topper from absolutecomfort, since I’ve already returned a topper with them and the process was very straight forward. Since I ordered one morning out of desperation, I failed to call first to confirm the firmness- I assumed a higher density meant more firm, which was of course a rookie mistake. It’s an improvement, but still too soft- I tried under the latex and over the latex; over is slightly better but I’m still waking up with middle-back pain, so I don’t think I’m supported enough.

I know that one of the recommended steps is to simply try out different types of mattresses to get a general idea of what I like and what works for me, so today I finally went to Macy’s to do some baseline testing that didn’t involve me ordering something online (this location had fewer models, but far less pushy salespeople). It seemed like the thing that feels consistently “right” for my back is a plush pillowtop over a firm mattress (mostly innerspring models with a bit of memory foam as well). Of course, the mattresses I tested were overpriced Beautyrest and Stearns and Foster models, which I’d like to stay away from.

The thing is, I’m worried that what makes them so comfortable is the low quality pillow top materials- it seems like the way to get that springy-yet-soft pillowtop feel that I like is through low-quality polyfoam combined with some kind of synthetic stuffing. Obviously there’s a reason that this is the first part of the mattress to go for the S brands! I’ve been looking at the recommended manufacturers on here, and haven’t really seen a separate pillow top style pad that you can buy in my price range. As far as mattresses go, if I buy a new one it can’t be innerspring (won’t make it onto my second floor), and it seems like most of the foam bed manufacturers are for people who wouldn’t want a barrier between the foam and them (they want to feel the latex or memory foam that they’re paying for, which makes sense).

I guess my question is, am I missing a (recommended) online site that has foam beds with pillowtops? Or is there a quality mattress pad that resembles the feel of one? The closest I could find was a talalay/wool topper from Magicsleeper.com, but at $600 I might as well invest in a new mattress! Would a soft hd or hr polyfoam give a similar feel? I suspect a straight wool topper won’t be the same either (although I am considering it).

I just feel like I need a cushy/springy barrier against the foam; I’m learning that sleeping right up against both latex and memory foam aren’t allowing me to sink in evenly (my butt sinks lower than my shoulders every time…)

On a slightly unrelated topic, is there that much of a difference between springs and hd/hr foam (I keep forgetting which one is higher density) in terms of feel/support if I’m not a heavy person and won’t be right up against them anyway? Assuming I go for quality materials, of course.

10

Hi aehome,

The firmness of memory foam (ILD) depends a lot on several factors including temperature, humidity, and time of compression as well as the individual perceptions of each person (people feel firmness in different ways and memory foam can feel firm when you move into areas that haven’t softened or with faster movements and soft if you have been lying down in the same position for a while). Sensus is firmer than other memory foams but everything changes depending on the conditions of use and on all the other factors involved and the other layers of the mattress.

There are two types of polyfoam specs. Once of these is quality specs (which is primarily density) and the other is comfort specs which is about the specs that contributes to how it feels. The two are not really related and any quality of polyfoam can have softer and firmer versions and different layering combinations that will affect what you feel. in other words you can’t feel the quality of the foam you are lying on … only the comfort specs and how the design interacts with you. When you test mattresses where the specs aren’t disclosed all you can really know is that some combination of polyfoam (or any other materials that are in the mix) work for you to whatever degree but there is no way to use your experience as a model for a mattress because you won’t know any of the specifics of the materials either in terms of quality or in terms of comfort. The reason that they use lower density materials is because they are much less costly not because of how they contribute to the feel of the mattress. Higher quaity polyfoam in a similar or equivalent combination would feel very similar.

If you are referring to a polyfoam topper or layer (similar to what would be in some pillowtop mattresses) then the topper post I linked to earlier has a link to several online foam sources that sell polyfoam. (post #4 here). You won’t often find a polyfoam comfort layer over latex (unless it’s just a thinner layer in the quilting or mixed in the comfort layers) because it would defeat much of the purpose of a latex mattress. Some of the larger manufacturers do this such as the Stearns & Foster Luxury Latex mattresses which are sold as being a “latex mattress” but you are sleeping on several inches of cheap polyfoam which generally softens and breaks down long before the latex comfort layers (typically in around the 3-5 year mark and often sooner).

To approximate the “feel” of a pillowtop you would need to know the specs of the materials that were used in the specific pillowtop you tested and ir you were buying a different material than what was in the pillowtop you would also have to “translate” from one material to another because the specs aren’t consistent between materials. Unfortunately if you can’t find out the details of the pillowtop you tried the there would be no way to even guess at what might approximate it … especially if you are using another material.

I would avoid the tendency to categorize all latex or all memory foam or all polyfoam in a single blanket assessment. There are different types as well as softer and firmer and thicker and thinner versions of memory foam, latex, and polyfoam and it’s usually the design and the firmness options and layer combinations that create alignment not the material itself.

When you are designing your own mattress then there can be a great deal of trial and error involved before you get to a design that fits your needs and preferences. Even manufacturers will tell you that trial and error is a big part of the design process in trying to get to the design goals they have in mind and they will often replace and change out layers many times before they are satisfied with the overall feel and performance of the mattress and how all the layers interact. There could be many people of your height and weight and sleeping style for example that did well on the layers you have already tried and yet for others it doesn’t work as well. It makes sense though that if 2" was still too soft that a thinner layer may be the next step. I would also keep in mind that many people of your weight may find the Dunlop latex you are using a little too firm so you may want to consider a softer material on top rather than underneath the latex.

Yes … springs have a different response curve than polyfoam and there are also different types of springs that are very different from each other (again there isn’t a single description that would apply to all springs or all polyfoam because there is a huge variety of different types of both). It would also depend on the specifics of the layers above the support core (either springs or polyfoam) and if there were thicker layers on top of either springs or polyfoam then the difference between springs and polyfoam would be less noticeable because the comfort layers would isolate you from either. As you also mentioned lighter people will feel less of the deeper layers of a mattress but if you were to “bounce” on the mattress or with larger movements then the difference between springs and polyfoam would be much more noticeable because springs are more … springy.

HD (high density) polyfoam is normally fine for the base layer of a mattress and there isn’t really a need to use the higher quality HR which would generally be more appropriate for a comfort layer. HR polyfoam is more resilient and elastic and HD tends to be less resilient and “stiffer”. HD (high density) polyfoam is generally in the 1.5 to 2.5 lb range. HR (high resilience) polyfoam is at least 2.5 lbs density, has a compression modulus of 2.4 or higher, and a resilience of 60% and has some of the more desirable qualities of latex although it’s still not as durable.

Phoenix

11

Thank you for this analysis. I’ve been considering Novaform, among other mattresses (both latex and memory foam), and the descriptions of the merits of densities of memory foam and polyfoam have been especially useful. I’ve been steered away from Novaform from your recommendations, and I think I’m headed for a latex mattress (from DreamFoam) that suits my budget and seems like a good value, based on your comments. Again, thank you very much. This is an outstanding resource.

12

Hi rockford,

I’m glad the site could help you and you are certainly looking in a good direction.

As you probably know … Dreamfoam is an invited member of this site which means I believe they are among the best quality/value available and most importantly they are transparent about the materials in their mattresses.

I’m looking forward to hearing about what you end up deciding. :slight_smile:

Phoenix