I have been educating myself with youtube videos and this website. I have talked with 2 of the recommended manufacturers from this website [Sterling Mattress Factory (Herrin, IL) and Maplewood Bedding Co (St. Louis area MO)] in my area and am getting conflicting answers, so I am hoping someone can break the tie or give me more to think about.
My background: I am an engineer so details are important to me and I am very numbers oriented. So mattress shopping is killing me because so much of the decision is based on the mattress “feels” rather than numbers (until I start talking construction and densities, etc. with people). My wife and I have laid on plenty of mattresses from chain stores before I stumbled on this site. We have not laid on another mattress since my re-education. This Saturday I am heading to Sterling Mattress Factory to lay on some beds. And I have to buy a bed this weekend. We have already put up with a sagging mattress for a couple months and my back cannot take it any longer.
Currently my wife and I are sleeping on a standard spring and foam mattress I got in 2003. I would dare to say the mattress has sagged at least 3 to 4 inches in both of our sleeping positions in the past 3-4 months. I am leaning toward a spring support layer with latex comfort layer (king size). I am typing these questions as I think of them so bear with their order please.
How much better is latex compared to poly-foam? Is it softer? Does it feel the same as poly and just have better resiliency which makes for a more durable product? Can I assume the order or items that fail are poly then springs then latex? Which means if I go with latex I need to watch the springs more closely? And if I go with poly I need to watch the poly more?
I am not decided on latex verse poly (especially before pricing) but either way I am not getting a full latex bed, so does the pour method of latex matter (dunlop vs talalay)? At what thickness does it matter?
What is the required thickness of the comfort layer? Both places manufacture their products on site so I am custom building my mattress. Is 2" of latex on springs enough like they are recommending? Or is there a rule of thumb that the comfort layer needs to be at least X" thick? What separates the springs from the comfort layer to keep the poly/latex from embedding in the springs?
Maplewood Bedding Co says I need to do a double sided mattress while Sterling says to do one sided. My current mattress was 2 sided but I can tell the springs are shot even with flipping it. Does this mean 2 sided is a waste of money?
When springs are used is there nothing else in the void around the springs? Is there really just air between steel or is there also foam around the springs?
Sterling makes a foundation with 6" gaps between Canadian spruce slats with webbing stretched over the top. Maplewood says there should be almost no gap between slats for my mattress type. Do I need to spend more on my foundation to eliminate the gaps? Should I forget the foundations all together and build my own with 2x4s and a plywood top?
How much should a king size pocket coil with 3" latex cost? Many websites talk about comparing pricing and needing to know what is in the mattress to compare, but when I am only comparing 2 places, how do I know they both aren’t increasing the price to begin with?
A king size bed is going to be hard to get into my house. I was a mover once and we always put rope around the mattress and cinched it down into a burrito to fit through doors. How bad is this and should I seriously consider reducing my size to a queen to avoid it if the dimensions don’t work with my doors?
I am so sorry for all the questions, but I hurt so bad each morning that I do not want to spend another 10 years on a mattress I regret buying.
I’ll let Phoenix tackle some of your harder questions, but:
I’d say each mattress maker would know the right foundation to match to their mattress, so I wouldn’t be concerned about their advice with respect to their own mattresses. Most advice varies based on the kind of mattress you are using since they behave differently. For latex, they say slats no further than 3" apart, for poly foam it’s diff, and I’d guess for a spring mattress it’s different still.
Assuming you are getting enough latex to make a discrete layer in the mattress, then yes I’d imagine Dunlop vs talalay, and the specific firmness, will make a difference to you. More so if the layer is near the top.
Re double sided or not, it has pros and cons. The pro is since the comfort layer tends to be the first to break down, by having a mattress double sided you double the life (or more) of the comfort layer. The disadvantage is that it means that the total thickness of the mattress cannot be made progressively firmer (from top to bottom), which you can do with a single sided mattress. Alternatively, if the mattress can be unzipped or opened with a single sided mattress, or a topper is used, you can easily flip or replace the top layer.
As Phoenix will no doubt suggest you read, make sure to read the guide to shopping for a mattress. Click on any post he’s made, the link is in his signature. Or he’ll post here. That will address questions about how thick the comfort layer should be, and some questions about materials.
For me, a king was delivered as 2x twin xl foundation / box springs that easily fit. If you get an all foam mattress, they can often be navigated into places a spring mattress won’t fit. In many instances, foam is delivered rolled up in a box.
I totally feel your pain. I’m an engineer too and the idea of subjective feel gives me the willies I don’t have a lot of answers because I have similar issues. I did do some bed testing this weekend and got a feel and hopefully that will help Phoenix guide me the right way.
The first thing I would suggest is that there is no formula that can answer most of your questions with the kind of specificity you probably are looking for because the mattress is more for your body than your mind and your body doesn’t understand numbers or theory. I would avoid trying to design your mattress based on “theory” and would focus much more on how each mattress feels and performs in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences).
I mentioned in an earlier post today that buying a mattress is much like buying clothes and while it’s important to know what the clothes are made of so you have a good idea of how it will perform and it’s durability … the most important part of buying clothes is how well it fits you and how it “feels” and matches your preferences when you wear them.
On to some of your comments or questions … but most of them will have an “it depends” in the answer.
FWIW … there are many people I know that could choose anything they want and are very knowledgeable about all the different mattress designs that would choose some version of a latex innerspring mattress over any other type. Of course there are also others who would make different choices but latex over springs can make a great choice for those who prefer this.
It depends on how you define “better”. Almost all latex is more durable than almost all polyfoam and it also has many other strengths that make it a unique material including it’s compression modulus (how quickly a material gets firmer as you sink in more), it’s point elasticity (how well a material contours to the shape of your body) it’s breathability (which affects temperature control), and it’s resiliency (springiness or ability to return energy from compression). You can read more about the pros and cons of latex in this article. both materials come in a wide range of firmness levels so one isn’t “softer” or “firmer” than the other because it would depend on your choice.
Having said that … both polyfoam and latex come in a wide range of softness and firmness levels so softness isn’t something that one material would be “better” than another although polyfoam can be made in firmer versions that you will usually find with latex although this level of firmness may not normally be very useful in a mattress.
No it has quite a different feel from most polyfoam (although some HR polyfoam is similar to some latex). It’s not only more resilient than most polyfoam it also has a different response curve and lower hysteresis and a higher compression modulus. Foam doesn’t have a linear response to increasing levels of force or pressure and the different response curves between different materials also have a significant effect on “feel”. Your testing will be able to tell the difference in most cases although the difference between polyfoam and latex (especially HR polyfoam) isn’t as much as the difference between fast response materials and slow response materials like memory foam and gel memory foam. Resiliency and durability aren’t related. There are some lower density foams that are very resilient but not very durable. The density of polyfoam and memory foam is the single most important factor in its durability. On the other hand almost all latex will be a durable material regardless of its density or formulation. Density is more connected to firmness/softness with latex but with polyfoam firmness and softness has little to do with density (every density of polyfoam has a wide range of firmness levels).
There is more about the many factors involved in relative durability and the useful life of a mattress (which are not the same thing) in post #4 here but in general a mattress will soften or break down from the top down and the closer to the surface a material is the more stressors it is subject to. The support layers are rarely the “weak link” of a mattress regardless of the type of material (within reason).
The springs are more an issue with the feel and performance of the mattress than they are with durability unless the mattress design has thinner comfort layers and the springs are taking up more of the compression forces in which case higher gauge wire would be more important. It’s the top 3" to 6" or so of a mattress that I would pay the most attention to (depending on weight and sleeping positions).
You can read more about the different types of latex in post #6 here but in essence it’s a preference and budget issue … not a “better worse” comparison. While they are “different” … one type of latex is not any “better” than another in terms of durability and the durability will depend more on the overall design of the mattress than on the type of latex that is used. Softer materials of any type will be less durable than firmer materials of the same type.
Outside of PPP … there is no “required thickness” of any material. The goal is “enough” to keep your spine in alignment and relieve pressure and to “feel” the way you prefer.
You will be able to tell if 2" is enough by testing the mattress and it will also depend on the springs. Some springs may be firmer and need more latex on top for some people while some (such as pocket springs) may be softer and need less material on top. With most springs there is an insulator over the springs to prevent the materials on top from sinking into the gaps between the springs but this generally isn’t necessary with pocket coils because they have smaller gaps and are individually encased and have a more supportive surface area.
One and two sided mattresses both have pros and cons. You can read more about some of the basic tradeoffs in post #2 here and in post #2 here (which are similar). If everything else is an apples to apples comparison … two sided mattresses will be more durable but they have less flexibility of design and this can also be offset by using more durable materials.
generally there is just air yes. On occasion there are inserts that can be added inside the coils or in the gaps between the coils for specific purposes (such as zoning or making some of the coils firmer) but this is not the norm.
My first choice in a foundation would be the foundation that is recommended by each manufacturer for their specific mattress. They are the ones who have to deal with any warranty issues and they generally don’t recommend a foundation that isn’t suitable. You can read more about using a solid support surface vs a more breathable surface in post #10 here but I would tend to avoid a solid support surface such as plywood unless there was a compelling reason to use it.
This depends entirely on the type of innerspring, the type and amount of all the other layers and components, the construction costs of the mattress, and all the other factors and policies that can lead to pricing differences in each area and with each manufacturer. The “value” of a mattress purchase is really a function of your personal value equation and involves much more than just the raw material cost of a mattress where you don’t know all the factors that are involved in the pricing of a specific mattress. I would always focus on the “value” of a mattress purchase but if you want to make material comparisons then it would involve comparing a mattress you are considering to other mattresses that are similar. This is another case where there are so many variables in the cost of each variation of every material and component as well as the many other factors that are involved in pricing that you really can’t use a formula and need to compare mattresses to other similar mattresses so your “value comparisons” are more relative than absolute.
As a very very rough guideline and bearing in mind that this is not in any way a reliable pricing guideline for any specific mattress … this article may be helpful.
Keep in mind that value is always based on many factors and dependent on what is available to you and what is most important to you.
This is really up to you to decide but it will also depend on the type of mattress you have and on how much it can be bent without damaging it. In most cases king size foundations are split for this very reason. Your own judgement and discussions with each manufacturer will be the best way to answer this one.
Whew … that’s a lot of questions but you’re very welcome and hopefully this has helped to some degree.
If I had to make a suggestion … as difficult as this will be for an engineer … it’s to focus more on your testing first and then to make comparisons between mattresses after you know more about which mattresses are best for you in terms of PPP. It’s much more effective to find the experts that already know what you would otherwise need to learn through a very long and never ending learning curve than it is to become an expert. From a technical level, the replies here have only scratched the surface and mattress design and theory is as much an art as it is a science. As much as you may want to reduce it to a science … the art that takes into account all the many objective, subjective and personal preference variables is just as important and it could be argued even more important than more technical information. While too little information usually leads to poor choices … too much information can lead to poor choices or even worse “paralysis by analysis” even more easily. The most effective time to do some analysis and comparisons are after you have narrowed down your choices so you can avoid trying to design your “best” mattress bases on specs or on information that can’t really be meaningful without more specific personal experience.
Thank you for the answers. I spoke with Maplewood again today and he thinks I am wasting my money doing latex on springs but would manufacture it if I wanted.
His options were a 1.9, 1.7 or 1.5 density HD polyfoam 1" quilted on 1.5" thick comfort layer on Bonnell springs. Double sided. Or a 2" latex on the same springs, or a 3" latex. I did not go into the latex quality at the time, but I believe from a previous call he can only get NR Dunlop right now.
When I apply the recommendations from this site, only the 1.9 polyfoam would pass the 1.8 minimum density. So I am leaning towards latex if I buy from him. Though I am slightly worried about the bonnell springs as well seeing as they are 3rd down the list (of 4) in terms of molding to your shape. Especially in a mattress with only 2.5 or 3 inches of material on top of the springs. If I go with Maplewood I would probably end up getting a 3" latex comfort layer (made up of a 2" and 1" sheet due to manufacturing) on Bonnell 4turn coil 13 guage tempered springs. Double sided of course. This guy swears by them. He quoted me at 1530 for the set, delivery and a frame. Any comments on this info?
Also, I saw previously in another thread that someone (maybe you Phoenix) suggested Restonics as being a good brand? Is this true, because we have a weekends only near us that sells them and they provide the construction break down of each mattress. Should this be an option for us?
Every manufacturer often has their own opinions about what they like best and what they don’t. There are many people who are very happy with their latex/innerspring hybrid so this is a matter of preference and when it comes to preferences not even he “experts” will agree. I wouldn’t buy a mattress based on specs alone though unless I had tested a very similar mattress and was confident that it was a good choice in terms of PPP and there were options available after a purchase in case the mattress wasn’t a good choice or design for you.
Again … the first step is to test a mattress to make sure it’s suitable for you. No matter what the quality of the materials in a mattress or its relative “value” … if the design isn’t right for your specific needs and preferences it would have little value to you. I would need to know more about the specifics of the actual mattress (design including the thickness and density of all the layers) to make any meaningful comments but in general higher density will be more durable than lower density polyfoam.
All of these can make good choices in a two sided mattress. Latex will be more durable and have a different feel than polyfoam. NR Dunlop is also a very high quality material for those who prefer it’s “feel” vs Talalay (see post #7 here). Bonnell springs are also a good lower budget choice and can be very strong coils in lower gauges as long as it has a good insulator. The minimum coil count I would consider for a Bonnell is a 312 (390 in a queen) and higher coil counts will have a more even support surface and generally be more costly depending on the gauge. The most meaningful way to compare innersprings would be based on the weight of the steel inside them and this isn’t a spec that is generally available. Again though … the innerspring is not usually the weak link of a mattress but different types of innerspring feel and perform differently. I wouldn’t use “general” information for specific comparisons (such as the ability of a Bonnell to mold to your shape or its weaker movement isolation) unless your own personal experience confirms it for the specific mattress design you are testing. Taking general information about a single component and then using this to analyze a mattress “piece by piece” can be misleading because each component and material has many variations and combinations and every layer and component will have some effect on all the other layers and components. How it feels for you and how it compares to other mattresses in terms of both price, options, and PPP would be an important part of my choice based on your personal value equation compared to other options you have available.
In a one sided mattress this would be the case. In a two sided mattress I would go as low as 1.5 assuming that you actually flip the mattress regularly. Even here though higher density would be more durable.
This would depend on the mattress only price (which is the only way to make apples to apples comparisons) compared to the other options you have available. While it’s it’s reasonable compared to many other mainstream choices you may have … it may not be in the “best value” range and its “value” would depend on all the other parts of the mattress purchase that were important to you and what6 else is available in your area. There would be no obvious weak links in the mattress in terms of quality/durability but there is also no “formula” for value outside of what is most important to you and how a mattress purchase compares to another one you are considering.
Restonic is a licensee group of independent manufacturers that often make their mattresses differently in different areas of the country. Many of the licensees are family owned private manufacturers that are fully transparent. They make some good quality and value mattresses but a brand makes little difference to me because a mattress is only as good as its construction and the quality of the materials inside it. I list them as a good option or “possibility” in many of the forum lists because depending on the prices and service of the retailer and the specifics of the mattress they can be good value and you have much higher odds of being able to find out the specifics of what is in the mattress than many other larger manufacturers in the top 15 (see this article) which means you would be able to make more meaningful comparisons.
I don’t have a lot of answers because I have similar issues. I did do some bed testing this weekend and got a feel and hopefully that will help Phoenix guide me the right way.