reasonable compromise or not?

[phoenix]

Hi Jdavis,

The first dealer we visited in Mooresville NC were very friendly and priced very very competitively for all latex. Only issue I had there was the inability to change ANYTHING after point of sale though they did offer to make their factory available to try out a couple beds in production. They are not out of play at this point though having a no return for any reason policy is less than inviting all else equal.

The return policy of a store is a “hidden cost” of a mattress because it’s factored in to the retail price based on the experiences and return percentage of the store. Good local testing can reduce or even eliminate the need for a return policy … especially if you err on the side of firmness which can be “fine tuned” with a topper or mattress pad. This is one of the tradeoffs involved in each person’s “value equation”.

Today’s Charlotte dealer had said their blend was 60% natural and 40% synthetic. I guess there is no way for me to know for sure. I am less inclined to want to pay for the “organic” title than is my wife who is very opposed to the chemical aspects.

If the latex is Talalay … then they almost certainly have their numbers reversed. If it’s Dunlop … then it’s more likely. Either way … almost all latex has no “safety” or “chemical” issues and has been tested for harmful compounds in the latex and for offgassing.

From my perspective, the latex is sealed within a mattress cover and on top of that will be a mattress pad followed by a sheet. Just not sure the organic tag is worth much other than peace of mind for those (like my wife) who are concerned ( fearfully I think we both know how far my 49% of the vote will go on this).

If the latex really is organic (and they should be able to show you the USDA organic certification for the latex) … then it can legitimately be called organic (and in this case the term “organic” would be real and not just a descriptive marketing term). If the organic Dunlop (there is no organic Talalay latex) is made by Latex Green (which produces both types) … then the “chemical” difference or the “safety” difference would be very little if anything at all IMO but I also understand the 51%/49% principle in relationships and that 51% is a overwhelming landslide majority

I usually research things and at some point get caught up in " what is best" and then start to back off to determine the best price/performance point. if one were to use a synthetic blended talalay core at the bottom with 2 layers of natural talalay comfort layers on top and then laid down on a similarly made bed where the bottom layer was now all natural talalay, would there be any appreciable difference over say 10 years?

There would be little noticeable difference for most people if the ILD was the same but the Natural is a little denser material so it may feel just a slight bit firmer and more “solid” with deeper compression. Using 100% natural Talalay on top may slightly compromise durability because blended talalay in softer ILD’s is probably a little bit more durable than the equivalent 100% natural Talalay layer. Latex International who makes both types only has a 10 year warranty on their all natural Talalay and a 20 year warranty on their blended Talalay (although the blended wouldn’t be twice as durable IMO). In the firmer ILD’s that are typically used in a support core … this durability difference would disappear IMO but there is no “proof” of this so this is more speculation based on my research and "connecting the dots) and the warranty would still be half as long. Durability is also a combination of many factors … not the least of which is where in the range of pressure relief and support the mattress is for the individual when it is new. If someone buys a mattress that is “on the edge” of providing adequate support and alignment … then even a small amount of softening can put them over the edge while for someone who was more in the middle of their acceptable support range then smaller amounts of softening would make little difference and for them the mattress would be more durable.

I had originally thought going dunlop in the bottom might be a better option thought that degree of variability in a mattress build thus far is very rare. Sleepingorganic offers that degree of mix/match though I guess at some point offering too many choices can turn into confusion!

I agree that too much analysis (especially without reference points where you have actually tested the combinations you are thinking about) can lead to “paralysis by analysis”. Dunlop support cores with Talalay comfort layers are fairly common … especially online … but this would vary by area and what the stores there were carrying.

I had originally priced out Sleep EZ and found the prices there very good along with great policies. They remian very much in play though their cheap prices I first saw was comparing Talalay Blend with Dunlop Natural. Even then going all organic with 100% natural talalay was NOT that much more. I guess this is where it starts to get dicey. Regarding dunlop, is it possible to get anywhere near the outer layer comfort people ascribe to Talalay? I ask because both our shoulders have issues and we need good pressure relief.

As you know … SleepEz is a member here and they have great value and options. They carry blended Talalay and 100% natural Dunlop which are the latex options in their regular line and 100% natural Talalay and “organic Dunlop” (made by the same company as the 100% natural Dunlop) in their “organic” line. They don’t “promote” the organic Dunlop as being organic for the reasons outlined in post #4 here earlier today although it’s the same material that others call organic.

Regarding dunlop, is it possible to get anywhere near the outer layer comfort people ascribe to Talalay? I ask because both our shoulders have issues and we need good pressure relief.

This depends on the actual ILD of the Dunlop (vs ILD’s that are often listed incorrectly) but it is much less common to find it in ILDs that are as soft as the ILD’s that are often used in Talalay comfort layers. In the same ILD as Talalay … Dunlop will feel firmer because it is denser and gets firmer faster with deeper compression (ILD is measured at 25% compression and a comfort layer will be compressed more than this). There are some versions of Dunlop which are legitimately in the upper teens in ILD but these are much less common and in most cases “soft” dunlop would be in the range of mid 20’s (and would be somewhat variable acrosss the surface of the layer because Dunlop is not as consistent as Talalay). Each manufacturer would know the characteristics of the Dunlop they carry and be in the best position to compare it to the Talalay they carried.

Ok yet another question… mattresses that offer split firmness settings which are NOT glued… how stable are they compared to a single solid layer, in general. Want to make sure there isn’t atendency to move about.

Latex is very “sticky” and doesn’t tend to shift over another layer. With a split top layer though you would need some type of quilting layer in the cover to even out the split (so an unquilted cover wouldn’t be as suitable). If for some reason the latex shifts (such as moving the mattress) … then its an easy matter to unzip the cover and shift it back but this isn’t an issue in “normal” use.

Going back to local dealer 1 my concern there is without any return/alteration policy it seems a bit of a risk to buy and then 90 days later realize it is too soft. Not much I can do to fix too soft with a sealed mattress. dealer 2 that we will visit in next 2 weeks seemed more able to make alterations down the line if needed though he uses some type of material to fix the layers together. At least the mattress cover has az ipper for access unlike dealer one.

Some manufacturers will change out a layer (rather than a whole matress) in the first few months (and some like Verlo will do it at any time in the first year) even with a finished cover. If the mattress doesn’t have any adjustment or exchange options or the manufacturer doesn’t offer a layer changeout and re-sweing the cover … then accurate testing for support is very important and again …erring on the side of firmness is the wisest move.

Last question… bed thicknesses. If we go on line we can get a 13/12 inch bed for about price we can buy a 10 inch bed locally. Does the extra 3 inch layer really come into play or is it conceivable a well made/balanced 10 inch bed is good enough in comparison. Thx again!

It would depend on the layering of the mattress (assuming we are talking all latex in both cases?) but in general more than 9" or so of latex isn’t necessary unless there is a specific reason to go thicker. Some of these reasons are a much higher than average weight (a thicker mattress will be more adaptable to different sleeping positions and go from soft to firm more gradually which can be helpful with higher weights that need firmer layers), a mattress construction that uses some type of zoning that needs a thicker mattress to accomplish the design, a two sided design with latex on both sides of the support layer, or a preference for the softer or more gradual “feel” of a thicker latex mattress. If you are considering an adjustable bed … then a mattress this thick may not conform as well to the bed in it’s more extreme positions. I would have a hard time imagining the need for more than 12" of latex though and even this would need a compelling reason for me.

If you are comparing the “commodity value” of a 13.5" latex mattress with say a 10" latex mattress … I would make darn sure that they were both exactly the same type of latex and that the 13.5" version didn’t have some other materials in it besides just latex so that you are making an apples to apples comparison if for some reason you were considering the thicker mattress.

Phoenix