I probably wouldn’t make that assumption although it could turn out to be correct. I would call the ones that are possibilities and give them your criteria and see if they have any mattresses that they carry that fit them before you visit them. Dixie foam would certainly be among the best quality/value in the area IMO.
A mattress is only as good as the quality of the materials that are in it so you would need to know the details of its construction and the density of the foams inside it to make any meaningful assessments. Memory foam mattresses range from cheap junk that are often made in China that use filled memory foam to make the density appear higher to high quality and more costly mattresses that use higher quality North American or CertiPur certified foams and everything in between. You can see the criteria I use for memory foam mattresses in post #10 here. If it meets the criteria and you are confident in the accuracy of the description and the knowledge and integrity of the retailer … and if it meets your needs and preferences in terms of PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) I would consider it. If it doesn’t meet these criteria I wouldn’t.
I think that meets the criteria you mentioned? Not positive. The only criteria I have a good handle on so far is the weight one, and that it should be at least 4lbs/ft I think.
You can see my thoughts about Craigsbeds in post #2 here and the thread also includes a conversation with Craig as well (CTF on the forum) about selling mattresses where a retailer is not able to provide consumers any meaningful information about the quality of the layers and materials inside it.
More and more, it’s looking like Dixiefoam is the only place in NYC that’s both on your recommended list and includes a few memory foam options under 1000 bucks. (unless I missed one). One frustrating thing about what I’m seeing online though: All of the four or five memory foam mattresses for sale seem to be short in total height. From a surprisingly short 5" up to only 8.5" if I’m reading right.
Ideally I would want a ‘taller’ mattress, mostly since the sheets I use and love are not meant for short/shallow beds, and don’t fit my current 8" or 9" mattress very well. I’d prefer maybe 10 to 12" or so. I was hoping to kill a couple of birds with one stone and get a mattress that reduces my pain and discomfort AND fills out my sheets better. (I briefly tried gadgets to keep my sheets taut, but they were more trouble than they were worth.) Obviously comfort is more important than the sheets fitting well, but both would be swell:)
As far as the NY area list goes you may be right except perhaps on a store by store basis where a particular store may carry a mattress line or model I’m not aware of (the forum lists are certainly not all inclusive of course because I don’t know every product sold by every retailer in the areas I research and in many if not most cases I have found store websites are not up to date which is why I talk to them to find out what they are currently carrying as much as my time permits).
There are a few memory foam wholesale manufacturers that use Chinese memory foam that are CertiPur certified and are usually transparent about the materials in their mattresses (although this may depend on the retailers willingness to call their sales rep or the factory) but I would evaluate each mattress you are considering to make sure it meets the guidelines I listed earlier in terms of foam density because some of them may also use lower quality materials. They are EasyRest in Portland, Bed boss, and mLily which all have some better quality/value mattresses that are sold through retail stores but you would need to call them to find out if they have any retailers in your area and of course I wouldn’t know the knowledge or experience of any of the retailers that may sell them or the prices they may charge. I would also read post #2 here and post #6 here to make sure you are comfortable with some of the uncertainty involved with foam that is made in China.
Dixiefoam only has the one memory foam mattress listed on their site which is 8.5" (probably finishing at 9" with the cover) although they may be able to customize it to some degree. It’s more common to have thinner mattresses in lower budget ranges because of course more foam in the mattress costs more to produce (unless the foam is low quality and only there to create thickness and the “perception” of better value at the expense of material quality and durability). The base layer of polyfoam is very high quality/density and is 5.5" and the memory foam layer on top of this is 3" and is high quality memory foam.
They do make some thinner mattress that are just a single layer of latex or their high quality polyfoam but these have have no memory foam.
Thanks, Phoenix. Yes, I suppose the thicker the mattress, the more it usually costs. I was just surprised that the dixiefoam’s seemed shorter than usual. But if the 8.5" one works for me if/when I visit the store, I could certainly live with that size.
Am I correct in assuming that you don’t think any of the mattresses I can buy at sleepy’s or similar places are any good? Or are some good, but just overpriced?
There are several issues involved when you are shopping at a typical chain store.
First of all the staff is usually not very knowledgeable about mattress materials and components and are taught to avoid these types of conversations (this information is only for engineers etc).
Second … most of the mattresses they sell are major brands which takes up most of their floor space and these brands don’t disclose the contents of their mattresses mostly because they use lower quality materials and sell them for higher prices.
Some of their mattresses use higher quality materials (such as Tempurpedic) and in some cases information about some of these is available but these also sell for much more than other mattresses that use similar materials.
So overall … they sell a wide range of mattresses from lower prices to higher prices but in almost all cases they don’t and won’t disclose what is in them and in almost all cases they have much worse 'value" in every budget range than smaller independent manufacturers that either sell factory direct or through better sleep shops.
I would avoid them completely … and after spending an hour or two on this site you will know more meaningful information about mattresses and materials than the large majority of the salespeople who work there.
I do understand the limitations and negatives of the chains from what I’ve read on this site. But that said, are there specific chain store models that you think are actually good, even if not priced great? (i.e., “The icomfort genius is an excellent mattress, and so is the beautyrest comforpedic, and i like the Sealy Whatever xyz as well” and so on.)
Uh oh… Just found these words elwewhere on the site:
“I am not a big fan of memory foam (especially if it is a thick layer) for back issues and a thick polyfoam comfort layer in a mattress is also not so great for backs and will also wear out too quickly. If memory foam is your preference then the thinnest, highest quality comfort layer that will relieve pressure is usually the best.”
I’m mostly a stomach sleeper, with occassional side sleeping, who has back issues. Is there some other type of mattress besides memory foam I should be looking at?
Not particularly no … although it would take too much time to look at every mattress sold by a chain store (which constantly changr as well) to evaluate each of them to try and find one I would consider.
Some of the Tempurpedic models use good quality materials (although they are not good value at all) and if you look at some of the highest end models sold in some chain stores they may also use higher quality materials (although many of the most costly ones don’t).
Materials are a matter of preference … and no matter what material is in a mattress … PPP is what is important and any material or combination of materials in the right design for a particular person can provide this although some people will have strong preferences for the “feel” of one material over another. The mattresses section of the site has more on the different materials used in comfort layers and in support layers and you can read more about the pros and cons of memory foam here and the pros and cons of latex here (which is the other main premium foam).
With combination side/stomach sleepers (which is probably the worst combination because the needs of each are completely different and this is the most difficult combination of sleeping positions to accommodate) the thinnest and firmest comfort layer that will relieve pressure on your side would be the “safest” in alignment terms for stomach sleeping which is the most risky sleeping position because of the likelihood of sleeping in a swayback position with the lower back pain that can go with this. There is more information here about different sleeping positions.
I feel like it’s getting more complicated, not less:)
You said you are not a fan of memory foam for back issues. That implies you must think a different material is better for back issues. So… what is that different material or materials?
Reading the pros and cons of memory foam and latex sections, I noticed latex didn’t seem to have many 'cons" other than price. Did I understand that correctly?
And would it also be a correct assumption that given that I’m a 150 lb male who is a combination stomach/side sleeper who changes position fairly often (at least on my current bed) with a not great spine, that latex might actually be a better choice for me than memory foam?
Or is there some other material that might be best for me? I certainly get that it’s all a matter of personal preference, and for all we know, I might be happiest sleeping on a bale of hay, but THAT SAID… one with your vast knowledge should at least be able to say somethng like “given all that you’ve said about your issues and sleeping styles, the most LIKELY best choice for you is X mattress/type”.
From a quality, durability, and performance point of view latex has few “cons” yes (as you mentioned the biggest one being price).
From the point of view of preferences though and how it “feels” in a mattress … there are certainly some who prefer other materials or components for various reasons. Some of these include it’s resilience or “bounciness” or because it has a high compression modulus (it get firmer faster with deeper compression than many other materials) you will also hear some people talk about it’s “pushback” which is also a factor of its resilience and that it has a lower hysteresis (ability to absorb energy) than other fast response materials or that in some constructions (especially softer thicker layers) that it feels 'jiggly". It is also heavy and more difficult to move especially in an all latex mattress.
I tend not to think in terms of “better or worse” and more in terms of combinations of properties that are more or less suitable to different people or different circumstances because there are so many variables involved and any high quality material can be a suitable choice in the right design but for those who prefer its advantages which include more freedom of movement in a mattress and don’t like the feeling of sleeping “in” the mattress (typical of most memory foam designs) as much as sleeping “on” a mattress it is certainly a good choice. It is also a very adaptable material and can make a good choice for combination sleepers because it has a combination of softness on top with initial compression and firmness as it compresses more deeply that can make it a very good choice for people who need a mattress that is more adaptable for different people or sleeping positions.
The key though is to make sure you have tested latex and are familiar with it at least in general terms because no matter what its technical strengths may be if someone doesn’t like how it feels and performs in “real life” then it wouldn’t be a good choice.
No … this really isn’t possible because the type of material is not as important as whether a mattress provides you with PPP (which is the goal of every mattress regardless of material) and any material or combination of materials can do this in the right design and combination. Each material also has higher quality/durability versions and lower quality/durability versions. The choice really is a matter of preference unless a particular strength of one material (such as the resilience of latex or the more “holds you in place” nature of memory foam is a preference for someone in which case it would be 'better" for that person.
If you like freedom of movement on a mattress for example or prefer a material that has better ventilation or is more natural and has less chance of offgassing VOC’s or even want the most durable foam material (in general) then for these types of preferences latex would be a “better” choice even though the design and layering of the mattress would still be important so that the specific mattress was suitable for your pressure relief and alignment needs.
Thanks. Interesting stuff. Can you elaborate on why you said that you are not a fan of memory foam for back issues?
By the way, I currently use pillows that came with a Jennifer Convertible couch purchase a few years back. There is no brand label on them, but the tag inside the pillow says “Foam core: 100% polyeurephene foam”. (Outer cover a cotton/poly blend, inner cover 100% poly. MADE IN CHINA.) I’m guessing this means memory foam?
I like these pillows just fine. Can we extrapolate from that about how I might like a memory foam mattress, or is too apples to oranges to be meaningful?
Memory foam (and other viscoelastic materials) has a property called “creep” which means that it is affected by and relaxes or softens based on how long it remains compressed as well as by heat (either of the person or the environment) and by humidity. This means that it can be a “risky” material in thicker layers because it can continue to soften over the course of the night so you can start the night with good alignment (which is what your back needs to rest and recuperate and rehydrate) but end up sinking in too far over the course of the night as the memory foam continues to soften and wake up in the morning with discomfort or pain as a result of sleeping out of alignment.
Any mattress regardless of material that has comfort layers that are too thick and soft and allows the pelvic girdle to sink down too far can be risky for back issues but fast response materials have much lower levels of creep.
With relatively thinner layers … you are closer to a more resilient support layer which will “stop” the heavier pelvic girdle from sinking in to far and can maintain good alignment better.
So it’s not so much that memory foam itself or any material for that matter is either “good or bad” for backs because it depends on the design of the mattress not the material … it’s just that memory foam is more tricky and that certain designs where comfort layers are thicker and softer (or become that way) are more risky with back issues.
A latex mattress that had a comfort layer that was too thick and soft for the person on the mattress and didn’t keep them in good alignment would also not be good for someone with back issues but with latex or other fast response foams what you start with is what you end with because it doesn’t get softer over the course of the night (although as muscles relax more they can loosen and you can sink in further as a result of this as well which is why it’s important to test mattresses when you are completely relaxed as much as possible)
But if one tends to changes positions during the night, wouldn’t that mean they are less likely to sink too deep into a memory foam mattress? Thus making a memory foam mattress less risky for a combination sleeper than it might be for a “I sleep like a log in one position all night” types?
All of this would depend on many variables including temperature, time in each position, amount of movement, whether the position change was into the same part of the mattress or into a different area and others but I think the main point I was trying to make wasn’t so much about trying to model every possible scenario but to say first that any thick soft layer can be risky for back issues if it leads to poor alignment and that memory foam can be more risky than other materials in thick soft layers because it “creeps” and you can sink in more deeply and foam creep happens progressively so it can be an issue even for the length of time someone spends in a single position. The effect of sleeping out of alignment will also depend on how long it happens because if you are out of alignment for 5 minutes it would be much different from being out of alignment for several hours over the course of the night.
This is why you don’t see memory foam used in support layers of a mattress because the risk of this construction would be too high for almost any person.
In most cases … there are so many variables that you can’t put a specific number on or quantify “risk” exactly but you can identify that some types of designs are “more risky” than others for certain circumstances and thick layers of memory foam would be one of these that would be “more risky” than other materials and may need more careful assessment.
Any material can work well in the right design that provides you with the PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) that work best for you.
While thickness and the perception of softness are very closely connected and the softness of the memory foam would play a role … the softness of memory foamvaries according to conditions and I would say that “not too thick” would be more important than “not too soft” in the case of memory foam although both will play a role.
It’s always the design and how well it provides you with PPP … not the material.