My wife and I are in the market for a new bed. We have done some testing of various mattress types although maybe not as extensive as we should have. However based on our initial tests my wife and I both seem to like the Tempur Cloud Supreme and Coud Lux best. We are both primarily side sleepers and prefer a plush feel. I am 5’10" 215lbs and she is 5’ 115lbs. We both suffer from some moderate back pain and myself from shoulder pain likely linked to my current 8 year old innerspring mattress/sleeping habits.
Thankfully we found this site as the cost of the Tempurpedic beds was more than what we could afford and after some research have gathered some focused interest in a couple alternative beds at the $12-1500 price point.
SelectFoam Cirrus Supreme-ES 11"
Restava Pearl Gel 13"
Tim at Restava has been very helpful thus far pointing me to the Pearl as the best likely match. I have had limited contact with SelectFoam thus far, but Phoenix is confident in their product and I am not deterred by a couple poor reviews. I imagine either would be far superior to my current mattress, but any input as to which might be a better value/construction would be appreciated along with any advice if I should look elsewhere as I am not “sold” on either, but initial research has put them at the toward of my list.
While both of these mattresses are good quality/value … there are some clear differences between them.
The most important of these is that the Select Foam has been specifically designed and tested to “match” the Tempurpedic lineup both in terms of the layering and construction, the quality of materials (they use the same or better quality) and perhaps most important in terms of feel and performance. Their entire lineup was designed in a way that a customer could use the Tempurpedic lineup as a reference point and have some confidence that the feel and performance of their mattress would be very similar.
The Restava may “feel” similar to one or another of the Tempurpedic mattresses to some people and it may also be a suitable choice for you but it has a completely different design with an inch of firming polyfoam on top and then 3" of gel foam over the base layer which is not the same as the Tempurpedic Cloud Supreme or Cloud Supreme Breeze or the Select Foam Cirrus Supreme ES. There is also a difference in the memory foam content and layering as well with one having a single 3" layer (Restava) and the other having two separate 2" layers like the Tempurpedic (Select Foam).
So you have narrowed your options to good quality/value choices between the two of them and there are many factors in what each person considers to be most important in a mattress purchase and their personal “value equation” but if how closely a mattress “matches” what you have personally tested both in design, quality, feel, and performance is an important issue for you or increases your confidence in making the most suitable choice … then this would give the edge to Select Foam.
Thanks for the quick reply Phoenix. With the Restava, what would be the main reason for them to use the firming Polyfoam? Would it allow for slightly quicker response of the top layer, which is maybe my primary complaint about the cloud series (memory foam in general). Are there any models that you know of that I might have a similar construction that I might be able to compare against or better yet, something that I could test in the Kent (seattle, WA) area?
Also in the literature for the SelectFoam Cirrus Supreme-ES it mentions those over 200lbs like myself might want to look at the Cirrus Luxe-ES. Would it potentially be in my best interest to invest a little more for the 2 extra inches and 8lb support layer?
Polyfoam is a “fast response” material so if this is the top layer then the overall “feel” and response will be a combination of the top layers and will “shift” the feel and response slightly away from the slow resonse of memory foam and towards polyfoam. the firmness will also supply the hand feel or surface feel of the mattress and would mean you were a little more “on” the mattress than “in” the mattress. Every type of material has it’s own unique combination of characteristics and in different mixes these characteristics are combined to create the “feel’ and performance of the mattress. Having 2” of polyfoam for example could change the feel significantly from having just an inch of firmer polyfoam on top. While it’s more common to have memory foam itself as a top layer because most people who buy memory foam want the “feel” of memory foam … hybrid comfort layers like this are also not uncommon either. For example … one of our members Rocky Mountain Mattress has several mattresses that uses this type of layering (polyfoam in the quilting layer over the memory foam).
Some of the better options and possibilities I’m aware of in the Seattle area are in post #2 here. If you have tested this type of mattress and like how it feels over all the various types of memory foam itself (and there are many types of memory foam with diferent types of response but they are all in the 'slow response" group) … then it would be a matter of calling various retailers or manufacturers on the list and asking them if they have any memory foam mattresses that have a thinner layer of either polyfoam or latex (both fast response materials) over the memory foam or in the quilting.
I think this would probably be a good idea and could make a difference yes. 4 lb memory foam is not as durable as higher density memory foam but it also has a feel that many people like (it’s sometimes but not always softer, more breathable, and faster responding than most but not all 5 lb memory foam). I would tend to minimize the use of 4 lb memory foam or use thinner layers at higher weights or at least be aware that the “feel” you are looking for may be at the expense of durability. Each layer is also affected by the layers above and below it so using higher density memory foam under it can make a difference although using higher density memory foam over lower density may have a bigger effect yet (it would sheild the lower density foam below it from much of the mechanical and durability stressors it would be subject to but may not feel as good for many people). You can see some of the many variables that can be manufactured into memory foam in post #9 here along with post #8 here.
Overall there are too many variables to make the type of 'black and white" assessments that most people would rather have (including me) and everything usually depends on several other factors in a complex “algorithm” of interacting influences. This is why local testing can be so important (it bypasses many of the unknowns) or testing a mattress that you know is similar so that you can eliminate most of the surprises. Without this if you are looking at an online purchase … then the knowledge and skill of the person you are working with to help you make the most suitable choice or any return or exchange policies in case of “mistakes” may be a significant part of the “value” of a mattress outside of the materials themselves.
On the way home from work the other day I ventured over to Mattress Depot to check out some of their Selection. Tested some various mattresses and none really felt that good until I layed on the queen Englander Emerald Euro Top latex. It is a Hybrid with Soy based Eco foam Base and 2x2" layers or what they call 100% Natural Latex. The salesperson did not know the density of the foam or the ILD of the latex and the Englander site is of no help. It was quite plush though while offering what felt like very good support. Has anyone had experience with Englander or this bed specifically? It happens to be their last one (of this model) as they said that they are reducing the amount of Englander beds to allow for a few new Restonics on the floor. I do not know if Mattress Depot does the mark up game, but it’s “list” said like $2499 and was dropped to $1799 and after speaking with the sales guy, I think I can get it for $1100 (sans box spring as I will likely get a l&p adjustable base for close to what I can get online + free delivery). Not 100% sure if it is what I need, I will need to go back and do a round of testing again with the wife, but is this a good price or should I save my time and look elsewhere for something better in this price range?
Mattress Depot lists the Englander Emerald Eurotop as starting at $1499 for the set (not a queen) but I would consider the “list price” they quoted to be a fake price for “perception” purposes only. I would also consider their “sale price” (which is probably their normal price) to be high as well. You can see a listing here for the same mattress (from another Mattress Depot) which is probably a floor model as well for $1399 for a queen set which would put it in the same range as the mattress only price you have been quoted.
Englander uses Dunlop latex in their mattresses and I believe that it’s 100% natural which is a good quality material. I would want to know the quality of the polyfoam in the support layer though.
I would use these mattresses which are similar and among the best value in the country for a latex hybrid as a “value reference point” …
http://www.latexmattresscompany.com/queen-7-zoned-natural-latex-mattress.html which has 3" 7 zoned Dunlop latex over a 6" polyfoam base layer (I don’t know the density but they would tell you if you asked) and a wool quilted cover. The cost excludes shipping (about $70) and it comes with a 60 day money back guarantee (less shipping charges) if you don’t like it.
Amazon.com Which has 3" of Talalay latex over 5.5" of high quality polyfoam (2.35 lbs) and a cover that is quilted with 1.5" of polyfoam. There are no returns on this one.
With an extra inch of latex it would seem reasonable to me to be a little more and I usually add about 20% or
so to a local purchase to get to “equivalent local value” (because of the lower risk of testing a mattress in person but this would depend on each person and their risk tolerance for an online order).
So if the mattress was new it would seem to me to be reasonable value (and probably good “local” value) although I would want to make sure the polyfoam base was good quality but I would also take into account that it was a floor model that should sell for less than a new mattress. I would probably be tempted to ask them for a larger discount considering you know about and have access to similar mattresses that are among the best value in the country as a value comparison.
As you mentioned I would also make sure that if fit your needs and preferences in terms of PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) because if the mattress isn’t suitable for you then of course it would have little value to you.
It’s certainly better value than the “roughly” equivalent Sealy Embody latex which uses 4" of mostly synthetic latex and a lower quality polyfoam support core.
I took my wife back over today and we both agree, the feel/relief of the Englander is our favorite bed thus far. The salesperson called around for me and confirmed that the base foam is 2.5lb. It was manufactured in November 12’ so it at least has not been on their floor for a year and they will ao a inspection and cleaning of the mattress prior to delivery. However they will not drop the cost further, I am looking at $1100 for the mattress. I am planning on getting the Leggett and Platt S-cape adjustable base and asked what it would cost for everything, they would do $1399 for the base which is about $100 more than adjustablebesds.org and they will also give us a free mattress cover. So total with tax I am looking at close to $2800 with delivery and setup. $3000 is around the max we wanted to spend with adjustable base and mattress, so that part is okay and the price seems “fair”, just not sure is the value is “good”.
Like you mentioned I can get the Ultimate Dreams Eurotop, which looks almost identical in terms of build except the Ultimate Dreams is 3" latex versus the 4" on the Englander and the Englander has slightly denser bas foam. So I can certainly get a similar setup for less if I go that route. $900 (Mattress) + $1300 (adj. base) = $2200. $600 cheaper is a bunch…but I also have not had the luxury to test the Ultiamte Dreams bed and there are no returns or exchanges either. Hmmm, what to do?
The value of a mattress purchase is really a subjective thing in the end because it depends on what is most important to you and of course on your risk tolerance and on all the tradeoffs involved between an online and local purchase. I think you have narrowed down your choices to good ones though so any direction you go would make a much better choice than what the vast majority of people would usually end up buying.
I place a high value on the “certainty” and lower risk of a local purchase … particularly if you have tested carefully for PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences). I also think that the Englander … especially with the last gap of information filled in (the 2.5 lb base foam) … is good “local” value meaning that it may not be in the range of the best in the country in “commodity terms” but it would make a good choice given all the “value” factors involved and If I was completely happy with it’s feel and performance I wouldn’t have any hesitation in buying it if my intuition and “gut” was telling me this was the best way to go.
In the end though … my role is to help people get down to final choices that have eliminated all the worst options and then “get out of the way” of final choices between good and good which only each person can really decide on for themselves.
I had a question about another potential mattress choice. I noticed that sleep-ez has a hybrid euro-top that is similar in construction to the Englander that I liked. It uses less foam in the base, but instead used more latex equaling 6" versus the 4" in the Englander. Have you heard of anyone having experience with this bed? It is $1195 in queen, which is perfectly within my realm of desired price.
Organic Cotton 4 Way Stretch Cover Quilted to 1.5" SS Comfort Foam
3" 100% Natural Soft Latex
Euro Top Design
3" 100% Natural Medium Latex
5" Eco Base Support Foam
This would make a great choice if you were in the Phoenix area but unfortunately the description mentions …
The 10" Luxurion has 3" of latex over the polyfoam base layer and the description you mentioned with 6" of latex is for the 14" I Sleep EZ Euro Top mattress but the price you mentioned is correct and is great value.
To my knowledge this is not available for UPS shipping across the country but you could always ask if this is still the case or how much extra truck shipping would cost.
I’ll give them a call tomorrow to see if they can. I did notice that they mention “Shipping charges apply for sales outside the greater Phoenix area”. So maybe…
I spoke with SleepEZ this morning and they confirmed that they do not ship out of state on that model. That is a bummer, but on a whim, I did speak with Lane at Rocky Mountain Mattress and mentioned to him what I liked thus far and what I have tried and he said that he can make a similar mattress based on the specs that I know. He will get me a quote with shipping costs.
I was actually about to decide on the Englander the other day until the Salesperson there was rude to me when I came back to him with some additional questions. Thus my continued looking and investigation elsewhere.
Received my quote from Lane. He has been very prompt and helpful. Cost of the custom mattress is $1799 delivered which sounds fairly reasonable considering it is custom and the quality materials, however that is towards the high end of my budget and at that price I would likely consider just going to with a full latex mattress like the 10,000 series from SleepEZ, which is what Jeremy there said would likely be the best bet for my sleeping needs. I have yet to try a full latex though, but based on the response of the 4" on the Englander, I am pretty sure the right configuration would be favorable.
On a side note, I emailed the owners of Mattress Depot with notes on my purchasing experience, David was very honest and based on my concerns offered to knock of some additional off the purchase price to keep my business local and ensure that I as a consumer, am happy.
You are certainly looking at some good choices and like you if I was choosing between all latex and a polyfoam latex hybrid in a similar price range and configuration I would likely go with all latex as well. It’s also great that your knowledge of some very high quality/value options also helped you with a lower price locally. That’s the best way I know to “negotiate” … with facts and comparisons to other mattresses that are directly comparable.
It will be interesting to see what you end up deciding and you are in a good place where all your options are good ones … especially compared to what the vast majority of consumers end up buying
After some thought I have decided to keep it local and go ahead and go with the Englander. My wife and I both liked it, it felt supportive and comfortable and was priced fairly. I purchased it today for the newly discounted price and Mattress Depot threw in a mattress protector as well. I delayed delivery for a bit, until my Leggatt and Platt S-cape adjustable base should be delivered. It should have it all set up in about 10 days.
On a side note, http://www.adjustablebeds.org/ does price match and sold me the model above for $1125 shipped (compared to their site price of $1299), which was a rather substantial savings compared to buying locally once tax and delivery were also brought into the equation. Obviously it has not been delivered yet, but their email and phone communication has been quite good.
If interested, I will provide a update once I have had a week or two to sleep on the bed and formulate a more accurate opinion on if I made the correct choice or not.
I think you did great research and made a good choice based on your own “value equation”, and even managed to get a discount and a bonus based on your knowledge of “competitive value”.
I also purchased my own adjustable bed from Olejo and they provided me with great value and exceptional service as well and I think highly of them. I dealt primarily with Daniel but have talked on several occasions with many of the staff there who are all knowledgeable and helpful.
The bed was damaged in delivery (which was pointed out to me by the delivery driver) and a quick phone call to Olejo confirmed that the best thing to do (both for them and for me) do was refuse delivery with notes about the damage on the receipt. They had a new bed shipped out in record time with no hoops to jump through (I think before they even received the old one back) and it arrived soon after. I have nothing but good things to say about the service I received from them.
I’m looking forward to your update when you’ve received your mattress!
Mattress was received on Saturday. The adjustable base was supposed to be delivered Friday, but sadly will not show up until tomorrow. So, thus far the Mattress has found the floor to be its foundation.
It is interesting how this same exact bed that we tested feels firmer when at home. Maybe because I am not comparing it to other beds that are firmer than it at the time. Of course it is possible that the mattress protector and sheet add to this feeling. First night I ended up with a weird back/shoulder pain and my wife had neck issues. Her alignment with the pillow while in her normal sleep position looks good, but she sometimes migrates to her stomach which likely may have been the cause. But I can for sure feel my weight being absorbed and the support distributed much better than my old mattress that seemed to have heavy pressure points in my hips/shoulder. Second night was much better for both my wife and I. She did mention that she thinks she preferred the feel of the Tempur material a bit better after the first night, but I reminded her to give it some time for our body to adjust. The bed is fairly plush, but it does not have the memory foam hugging feeling which I think she likes a bit more. If absolutely needed after a transition period and she pines for memory foam, Is it possible to add a thin1.5" or so memory foam topper to give her a little of the feel she might be looking for without hurting the support and function that the mattress is currently giving?
Also Interesting I noticed on the mattress tag that the construction states that it is 72% Foam Rubber Latex and 28% Something, Something Foam. Is that normal considering that the bed supposedly only has 4" latex and sits at around 12"?
I will give another update in a bit once we have the adjustable base in place and had some more time to adjust.
It’s probably a little bit of both. Just to use your experience as an example … the variations in perception when you are testing mattresses is a well known phenomenon and is part of why I talk about the 'managed perceptions" of a showroom. People will often “feel” the firmness or softness of a mattress relative to what they have just tried before it or compared to some subjective reference point which is why its so easy to “make” people feel what you want them to feel in a showroom just by changing the order that they lie on different mattresses. I think most of us have direct experience with what can happen even after a couple of hours of mattress testing (or less) where we have “forgotten” what a mattress felt like and because we have tested different mattresses in the meantime the mattress that felt one way a couple of hours before feels completely different because our reference point has changed. This is especially true if we are comparing between stores with travel time in between and it can be more true yet in the time it takes in between buying a mattress and having it delivered at home.
In addition to this … the layers that are added to the mattress at home can also make a real difference (some much more than others).
This is part of the reason I advocate for more “objective” testing against certain “targets” rather than testing based on an overall feel.
As the changes between each night also shows … the first step with any new mattress purchase … especially when it is different from the “reference point” of the mattress we are used to … is to first give the mattress some time so we can adjust to a new type of feel and performance. This may have little to do with whether a mattress is better or worse in terms of PPP (Pressure relief, posture and alignment, or Personal preferences) and more to do with “unlearning” what we are used to and “learning” something different and developing a new reference point.
Sometimes of course the new mattress really is just the wrong choice but in almost all cases if good testing was done in the showroom then it will be close enough that only minor fine tuning will be needed once the adjustment period (and of course any break in period of the mattress) is complete.
This is interesting. The mattress tag measures the content by weight not thickness so because latex is heavier than polyfoam (it probably says polyurethane) it will always be listed as having a higher percentage than it would based on thickness.
A quick rough calculation though says that this seems to be a little off.
Using a queen size as an example … 4" of 5 lb Dunlop (for sake of argument) would weight about 56 lbs.
If the mattress had about 6" of polyfoam (and the rest was fiber in the quilting) this would weigh about 42 lbs. this would be about 57% latex.
If the base foam was 1.8 lbs density then this would weigh about 30 lbs. In this case the latex content would be about 65%
Either way though … it appears that the latex content is higher than what you would think which probably points to the latex being a little higher density (or less thickness with more quilting) along with the polyfoam being a little lower density than they said or a combination of both.
Thanks for the feedback and giving me a chance to use your experience as an example as well. I’m looking forward to hearing about how things work out as you adjust or do any fine tuning that may be necessary.
I am considering the Restava Cool Gel Ivory 13" vs the SelectFoam Cirrus Supreme-ES 11".
I have read your description of the construction differences and the similarity of the SelectFoam to the Tempurpedic, can you explain what those differences mean and is one type better than the other, and are these two mattresses comparable products?
