My wife and I have started on our search for a new mattress. Since discovering this site, I’ve reviewed the tutorials and articles and done a great deal of research. With the help of your central Indiana list of possible vendors, I’ve identified the ones that are likely candidates. Yesterday we began our Step 2 visits - just laying and bouncing on a variety of beds to get an idea of what feels good without reference to price, features, or components. In the process we were able to try beds from Southerland’s American Sleep line, Holder Mattress Factory’s products (that’s the Carmel/Kokomo branch of the Holder family), and a good number of Bowles mattresses. We found products that seem to be well built in all of the lines and we were well treated by the sales people at each location - they were happy to provide information, but they didn’t try to steer us or impress us with factors that aren’t really relevant to getting a good night’s sleep.
Our two “winners” (i.e. candidates) from yesterday’s trials were Bowles’ Newport and Santa Barabara models. Both models are nearly identical except for the ordering of the memory foam and latex layers portions of the comfort layers. Both mattresses had a very pleasant feel that was distinctly better for us than any of the others we tried. And despite their strong similarities, they do feel slightly different from each other. Our sales person (and the Bowles website) was fairly transparent about the construction of these mattresses, but there are a few details that I’m following up on to have a complete picture. My purpose in writing is to get your opinion whether these sound like reasonable quality given what I do know about them and what I will share about our sleeping needs.
My wife and I are both primarily side sleepers. She is 5" 7" and about 135 lbs and I am 5’ 9" and 245 lbs. The mattresses in question fall a little below some of your recommended minimums for foam density and coil wire gauge, but the entire assembly seems (to my way of thinking to potentially have some mitigations for those faults that would make this a reasonable quality/value choice for us. Here are the specs for the Santa Barabar::
Total depth - 15"
Performance fabric(?) quilted to 1.5" soft foam
Gel Lumbar Support - Added layer strategically positioned in lumbar area.
1" Latex Layer
1" 4 lb Gel Infused Memory Foam
2.4" Micro Coils - Individually wrapped 17.5 ga
1" Firm Foam - 1.5 lb density support layer.
6" Individually Wrapped & Zoned Coil System - Lumbar area is 15 ga compared to 15.5 ga for head & foot.
3" x 6" 1.5 lb density foam encasement around coils
2" densified fiber support pad (not sure what this brings to the party other than height)
(The Newport model swaps layers 3 and 4 - everything else is the same.)
Coil count for the support coils is 704. I know that coil count can be a game, but just wondering if the smaller gauge wire is because coil diameter needs to be smaller to accommodate the coil count - and if that still can provide appropriate durability for someone in my weight range. I’ve sent the Bowles factory an email in order to get information on the type and density of the latex used and the density of the foam quilted to the cover. I think they have all of the rest of the data needed to take a shot at the quality/value question.
So, do you see any concerns about these two mattresses?
Just to clarify … I don’t have a minimum suggestion for coil wire gauge. I would avoid using coil count or wire gauge as a way to determine the quality, durability, or value of a mattress because an innerspring isn’t normally the weakest link in a mattress and the number of coils is only one of many factors that determines how a particular innerspring will feel and perform inside a specific mattress design and can be more misleading than helpful. There is more about the different types of innersprings in this article and in post #10 here.
There is more about the 3 most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for).
While I can’t speak to how any specific mattress will “feel” for someone else because this is too subjective and relative to different body types, sleeping positions, and individual preferences, sensitivities, and circumstances and you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress … outside of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) the most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on a mattress. This is the part of your research that you can’t see or “feel” and assessing the durability and useful life of a mattress depends on knowing the specifics of its construction and the type and quality of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label (or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new) so I would always make sure that you find out information listed here so you can compare the materials and components to the quality/durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.
Total depth - 15" 1. Performance fabric(?) quilted to 1.5" soft foam: The quilting foam is generally a lower density material but as long as it’s not more than “about an inch or so” then it wouldn’t compromise the durability or useful life of a mattress as long as there aren’t any other lower quality/density materials in the top layers of the mattress.
2. Gel Lumbar Support - Added layer strategically positioned in lumbar area. This is generally a layer of foam that covers the center third of the mattress that is meant to provide additiional support under the heavier parts of the body (the hips, pelvis, and lower back). I would generally want to know the type and density of this material but it’s also unlikely to be a weak link that would compromise the durability or useful life of the mattress.
3. 1" Latex Layer: They don’t mention the type or blend of the latex which I would want to know to make more meaningful comparisons with other mattresses but any type or blend of latex would be a durable material relative to other types of foam so this wouldn’t be a weak link in the mattress either.
4. 1" 4 lb Gel Infused Memory Foam: This would be a good quality material relative to most weight ranges but if you are in a higher weight range (more than the lower 200’s or so) generally reduce or minimize the use of 4 lb memory foam and look for 5 lbs or higher. While by itself it wouldn’t be an issue because it’s only an inch … in combination with the 1.5" quilting layer this could be a weak link in the mattress.
5. 2.4" Micro Coils - Individually wrapped 17.5 ga: Microcoils are a good quality and durable component and wouldn’t be a weak link in a mattress. There is more about microcoils that are used in comfort layers in this article and in post #8 here and post #2 here.
6. 1" Firm Foam - 1.5 lb density support layer.: This is a little bit deeper in the mattress (there are about 6" of foam materials or microcoils above it) so because of this and it’s firmness it wouldn’t compress as much or break down as fast as the same layer that was closer to the sleeping surface but it’s still a lower density than I would normally like to see in a mattress … especially in your weight range where I would generally suggest polyfoam layers that are in the 2.0 lb range or higher.
7. 6" Individually Wrapped & Zoned Coil System - Lumbar area is 15 ga compared to 15.5 ga for head & foot.: This also wouldn’t be a weak link in the mattress.
8. 3" x 6" 1.5 lb density foam encasement around coils There is more about edge support in spring mattresses in post #2 here. The 1.5 lb polyfoam foam encasement is also a lower density than I would normally suggest but this would play a bigger role for those who regularly sleep with more of their weight concentrated on the outside edges of their mattress or who use the edge for sitting on a regular basis. Using 1.8 lb polyfoam or 2.0 lb polyfoam for higher weights would improve the durability of the edge support here as well.
9. 2" densified fiber support pad (not sure what this brings to the party other than height): This is a stabilization layer that is usually used under an innerspring to give the springs a solid and stable layer underneath them and to make sure that the springs have a solid support surface in between the innerspring and the foundation you are using so that the springs don’t sag into any gaps in the foundation. This also wouldn’t be a weak link in the mattress.
With the Newport the layering combinations would probably be very slightly less durable because the 4 lb memory foam is less durable than latex and would be closer to the sleeping surface and more subject to compression.
Overall there are a few question marks here that by themselves aren’t “too bad” but taken together in combination with your weight range could be a weak link in the mattress. While they are probably better quality and more durable materials and components than most of the major manufacturers … I would be somewhat cautious here.
Again … I wouldn’t pay attention to coil count or the wire gauge because if the mattress is a good “match” for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP then the innerspring inside it will generally be fine as well.
I wanted to continue the story of our search as things didn’t go quite as we hoped they would.
Through our second weekend of initial trials we had the opportunity to check out products by Bowles (Long’s Mattress, Castleton, IN), American Sleep (mfg by Southerland) (Indiana Mattress, Fishers, IN), Holder Mattress (Carmel, IN), and Jamison (Thompson Furniture, Columbus, IN). It should be noted that all of the dealers that we worked with had exemplary sales staff who inquired what our sleep needs were, provided reasonable suggestions, answered all of our questions, and left us time and space to lay on the mattresses undisturbed. All of the manufacturers that we explored seem to have fine products, all provide full disclosure about the construction and materials in their mattresses, and so we eventually decided that the two Bowles models mentioned in my previous post and the Jamison St. Simons would be our finalists.
With that decision made we returned to Long’s Mattress and Thompson Furniture for more extended trials and evaluation of our comfort, support, and spinal alignment in the positions we normally sleep in. After discussing the relative merits of each mattress, we settled on the Bowles Santa Barbara as our final choice. Mattress, foundation, and new frame ordered, delivered as promised and my wife had her first couple of nights sleep on it. (We are taking turns right now because I have a snoring problem.) Both mornings, she woke up with lower back pain - something she doesn’t experience on our existing mattress. I also slept on the mattress and experienced some hip pain (I’m mostly a side sleeper) through the first night, but have had no issues since.
Despite our preparations, study, and mattress trials we apparently still missed the mark. The good news is that Long’s Mattress offers a 30-day trial period during which you may make one exchange at the cost of a 10% re-stocking fee and a $40 redelivery fee. So we have since gone back and cast our nets a bit wider, determining that the following Bowles mattresses are probably better choices for us:
Bowles Breckenridge (1-sided):
1.5" soft (1.5 lb) foam quilted to their Performance Fabric (tencel)
.5" Gel Lumbar support (covers the middle ⅓ of the bed)
1" Gel Infused Memory Foam (4 lb)
2" Convoluted Foam (1.8 lb)
6" Individually Wrapped Coils (15 ga in the middle, 15.5 ga on the ends)
2" Base Support Pad
Total Depth: 12.5"
Bowles G2502 (2-sided:
1.5" soft (1.5 lb) foam quilted to their Performance Fabric (tencel) - both sides
1" Gel Infused Memory Foam (4 lb) - both sides
6" HD Polyfoam Core (1.8 lb)
Total Depth: 11.5"
Based on the guidance that you provided in your response to my previous post, I am aware that there are some potential borderline weak links in both of these for me due to my weight (245 lb). However, my larger concern is to find a mattress that really works for my wife as she sees a chiropractor twice a week and whatever we pick really needs to be right for her and at least acceptable for me. Based on our trials so far, I believe that either mattress above will work for me. I have asked my wife to go back to the store on a day when she is feeling particularly good and try our two finalists out again for an extended period of time in order to make our selection. As things stand, we both tend to favor the Breckenridge, but feel we might be safer from a support point of view with the G2502. I think it is likely that the initial softness of the Santa Barbara is a seduction that we want don’t want to repeat since we have only one more shot to get it right before it gets unnecessarily expensive. (FYI - the approximate cost of each mattress is as follows:
Santa Barbara - $1654
G2502 - $1142
Breckenridge - $1049
(I say “approximate” because their normal pricing is for a set with foundation (1999/1499/1399 respectively). The prices above are mattress only and discounted for cash.)
I should note that both the store manager and Long’s General Manager warned my wife and I about going too soft - lesson learned (I hope.)
In light of this additional information, do you see any concerns with the construction and/or materials in the two mattresses described above?
Thanks for your previous response and for the one I know that I will receive shortly. I greatly appreciate the hard work that you’ve done to research these topics and the patient explanations that you provide!
I would keep in mind that here will be a break in and adjustment period for any new mattress or sleeping system as the mattress loses any of it’s “false firmness” and the cover stretches and loosens a little and the materials settle and your body gets used to a sleeping surface that is different from what it is used to (see post #3 here). This would typically be a few weeks but it can be shorter or longer depending on the specifics of the person and the mattress (higher density materials can take longer) and it can be surprising to many people how much their sleeping experience can change over the course of the first month or so. I would generally suggest sleeping on any new mattress for a few weeks at a minimum whenever possible until you are confident any symptoms are the result of the mattress rather than the initial break in and adjustment period before deciding on whether it’s a good “match” in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP and/or deciding to exchange it.
While it’s not possible to “diagnose” mattress comfort issues on a forum with any certainty because there are too many unique unknowns, variables, and complexities involved that can affect how each person sleeps on a mattress in terms of “comfort” and PPP or any “symptoms” they experience … if after a few weeks your (or her) “symptoms” are consistent and have developed into a clear pattern then there a there is more about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here that may be helpful.
In very general terms … the most common (although not the only) reason for lower back pain is a mattress that is too soft (either comfort layers that are too thick/soft or a support layer or component that is too soft) and it would make sense to exchange the mattress for another one that is a little firmer.
You seem to have some good clarity about assessing a mattress for durability because as you mentioned I would have some concerns about the quality/density and durability of the layers and components in both mattresses in your higher weight range but in terms of durability they would both be suitable choices for your wife.
Unfortunately suitability and durability are different issues and while I can certainly help with “how” to choose … It’s not possible to make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).
Of course even careful testing isn’t a 100% guarantee of success either (although it’s more reliable than anything else outside of your own actual sleeping experience) so if you are considering two mattresses that are very similar in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP and you really can’t decide between them then I would lean towards the one that is slightly firmer because you can always soften up a mattress that is too firm with a mattress pad or a topper but it’s much more difficult to firm up a mattress that is too soft without removing and replacing comfort layers that are too thick or soft or a support core that is too soft.
My wife and I have done additional testing and wound up with the follow model:
Bowles Kodiak (1-sided):
1.5" soft (1.5 lb) foam quilted to their Performance Fabric (tencel)
.5" Gel Lumbar support (covers the middle ⅓ of the bed)
2" Convoluted Foam (1.8 lb, 28 ILD)
6" Individually Wrapped Coils (15 ga in the middle, 15.5 ga on the ends)
2" Base Support Pad
Total Depth: 11.5"
My wife spent additional time on one today and we agree that this model will work for us. I was most concerned that she is both comfortable on it and confident that it’s the right choice. (A brief aside - it was pointed out to me that during a recent trip to visit my son and his family that I slept quite soundly on an old, hard, and somewhat lumpy couch, so I guess I’m fairly adaptable…).
We will arrange for delivery in a few days. I will report back in a few weeks with a review since there aren’t many for Bowles products on this site. Thanks for all your help, Phoenix!
Thanks for letting us know what you ended up deciding.
While the quality/density and durability of the materials would be suitable for your wife’s lower weight range … they would be lower quality/density than I would normally suggest for someone in your weight range so the risk of premature foam softening and breakdown would be higher.
If you are comfortable with the higher risk that the mattress will be less durable and have a shorter useful life and the price of the mattress justified the additional risk relative to other mattresses that are available to you that have higher quality and more durable materials … then congratulations on your new mattress :).
I’m looking forward to your comments and feedback once you’ve received it and have had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.