Good morning Phoenix. I hope you have been enjoying the holidays!
Wanted to let you know that I think we will finally be pulling the trigger on the Sovn Willow ‘C’ model today- hopefully. I am going to discuss price and if I can get them to ~$3,000 for the king with the flex slat base, then we’ll do it. 
Yes, please keep us posted on how that Sovn Willow works out for you?
Hi Phoenix and all,
Wanted to report that our Berkeley Ergonomics Willow ‘C’ arrived last Friday. Very good quality materials and it feels very good. However, 3 of the last 4 mornings I am still having some middle to upper back pain- today pretty bad all day. I do know it takes a little time for your body to adjust to a new mattress- particularly when going from one that is too soft and not supportive enough to one that is. This one should be plenty supportive and it does conform, but you do not sink. I assume it’s just much more support and it’s firmer than that Sealy Introspection so perhaps my back muscles are a little mad.
Uraburr-- I believe you ordered the same model- just not sure which firmness. Just wondered if you’d received yours yet and if so, how it was going.
I’m not giving up on this one though-- I really like the set up and the quality and the level of firmness. I’ll give it a good week or so to see if my back will adjust. Luckily- we can swap out layers with Sovn if needed. But- we would not want to go firmer, and I’m not sure that softer is a good idea. So- I’ll keep you posted in another few days!
Hi SleeplessinDallas,
I think that dealing with back pain (or any pain) and how it may relate to a mattress can be one of the most frustrating “projects” possible. Part of the reason for this of course is that there are so many variables involved that getting to the actual cause and it’s solution can be difficult at best. There are so many different causes that can mimic each other that sometimes even knowing where to begin can be frustrating and even a quick search on the internet can lead to more confusion and questions than it can answers. Often there are multiple causes that interact and no single one seems to help. To make it even more difficult, many of the causes are not even related to a mattress even though a mattress can either help aggravate or alleviate some of the issues involved so it can sometimes appear that something obvious such as a mattress change is the cause when it may only be one additional factor that put something over the edge.
So I thought I would explore some of the issues that may be involved in this post … not because you may not know them but because your post gives me a chance to explore possibilities that may apply to many people.
The first thing that can be part of the difficulty with a mattress is that change itself can cause problems. Change for the better that may help in the long term can often cause short term symptoms. These tend to become less over time as the body makes “good” adjustments. Change for the worse can cause the same symptoms. Of course these tend to get worse over time as the body makes “compensating” adjustments. Both of these tend to happen in cycles with periods of improvement followed by periods of worsening. A spine for example that has become used to a “learned” curvature (rather than a neutral curvature) or has become less flexible than it should be from lifestyle or other issues can cause pain when sleeping in better alignment even though in the long term it may be part of a longer term solution. It’s often really difficult to know if pain is the result of an improvement process or a worsening process. Because there are so many variables involved … it can also be difficult to know if what we are assigning as the “cause” (such as a new mattress) is only one of several factors (such as diet, lifestyle, injury, or other underlying issues).
To make all these matters more frustrating … there is often a tendency to make too many adjustments too quickly which don’t take into account the gradual nature and the cycles of changes in either direction. We “react” to each symptom of change and often try to “fix” it without taking into account or in many cases even knowing whether this is an “improvement” symptom or a “worsening” symptom or part of a natural cycle where things get worse or better because of an ongoing process that has roots in longer term patterns rather than short term (and seemingly more obvious) changes.
Imagine an ocean for example where there are hills, valleys, and mountains on the ocean floor which are all covered by water. The variations in height of the hills, valleys and mountains on the ocean floor are the odds we will experience certain symptoms. The depth of the water which covers the hills and mountains is our overall health, strength, and vitality. The actual symptoms we experience are the peaks or “islands” which rise above the water level of the ocean. Both the water level and the ocean floor can change over time. As the water level is lowered (our health and vitality is reduced), or new hills and mountains grow in the ocean floor (changed tendencies through habits, environment or circumstances), new islands are exposed or get bigger and we experience symptoms that have been previously covered by the water. What we are born with, our exposure to things like accidents and changes in environment or circumstance can raise the peaks while our overall health practices can raise or lower our water levels (and our ability to keep our symptoms covered). New islands (symptoms) appear and disappear all the time as a result of normal patterns in life.
Changes in circumstance or environment which make new hills and valleys grow increases the odds of certain symptoms (like eating something poisonous, changing to a job that requires us to use our muscles more, sudden emotional changes, or a new mattress for example) and usually leads to more specific symptoms as only one or two new islands are exposed. The water also has waves on top which are the natural fluctuations that we go through and if the water level is too low then these waves can lead to cycles of symptoms (exposures of the peaks just under the water) that seem to come and go. This is usually a first symptom of water levels that are too low. The amount of water over the hidden peaks is our sensitivity to symptoms and determines how much the “normal” waves of life will affect us.
The trick of course is to know whether a symptom is “caused” by the raising of a peak (an accident or injury, a sudden change in circumstances, or the progressive effect of a bad habit) that increases the odds we will experience a symptom … by the more gradual lowering of the water levels that lowers our resistance or adaptability to symptoms … or a combination of both.
Examples of the first is posture habits such as sitting at a computer all day with poor posture, exposure to an environment which is more risky (toxins or stressors) or needs more effort (muscle fatigue), environmental or circumstantial stress, or injury. Examples of the second include diet and lack of exercise or poor health or sleeping habits which reduces the natural ability of the body to accommodate or adapt to the ongoing changes or rhythms of “normal” living.
If the water level is just above the peak, then small changes of either type can lead to symptoms. This is where the natural tides and waves (normal stuff) or small environmental changes can cause symptoms that come and go. The other possibility is a more sudden (and often obvious) change that leads to a peak (the odds that you will experience a symptom) that grows much faster. These tend to be more sudden and long lasting (they don’t come and go as much) and involve a change that is easier to identify (like an injury or a more sudden change in circumstance or environment that puts a “symptom peak” above the water and keeps it there). One comes more suddenly in other words and tends to stay while the other tends to come and go with the tides and waves or even ripples of normal life.
On to some specifics of back pain as it relates to sleeping and mattresses. Bear in mind that I am not a doctor and that this is more about the general tendencies of how a mattress may affect things rather than an attempt to “diagnose” anything.
In general … pain that can be connected to a mattress will come from one of two primary sources. The first is muscles and their connected tissues and the second is joints and their connected tissues. There is a also a third category which is “other causes” (such as health or illness issues which can “mimic” back pain) which have little to do with the joints or muscles themselves. This last group needs to be ruled out (with the help of a medical professional) because of course no solution that involves the muscles or joints can work if they are not the primary cause.
The “joints” part is generally from alignment and can range from the joints in the spine to other joints such as the hips, sacroiliac, shoulders, etc. The muscles part is generally from circulation and/or tension issues caused by pressure of some type. These can also interact with joint issues such as when excess pressure on a hip aggravates its alignment and causes pain. Each of us can have a different tendency to experience either (the number of hills and valleys on our ocean floor) and can have a greater or lesser resistance to experiencing these symptoms (the depth of our water).
With pressure issues … or with joint issues that come from excess compression on the joint (usually the hips and shoulders) then the upper part of the mattress is often at “fault” (in terms of either softness or thickness) assuming that our overall water level is high enough above the peaks and valleys of our ocean floor so that natural waves aren’t the real issue. These symptoms tend to be more vague and can involve numbness, burning, tingling, or generalized pain.
With joint issues that are more connected with alignment … then the lower layers of the mattress (or sometimes the thickness of the upper layers that separate the body from the lower layers) are most often at “fault”. These symptoms tend to be more specific and often localized to a specific part of the spine. The most common here is lower back pain and particularly lumbar issues where either the small of the back is not well supported (the gaps are not filled in) because the mattress overall is too firm or the heavier pelvic area is sinking in too far because the mattress overall is too soft. These usually lead to a type of pain that is easier to identify as coming from a more specific part of the spine.
Some “combination” types of problems can be from shoulders that don’t sink in far enough leading to poor alignment of the upper spine, pillows that are not suitable for a particular weight or sleeping position which can lead to neck and shoulder issues, or twisting that can come from poor sleeping habits or a mattress that isn’t quite right and the body tries to “fix” an alignment or pressure issue while we are sleeping and we shift one part of the body (like the torso) without shifting the other.
Some possible solutions or at least some ideas that can help or give an indication of what may need to change …
Changing pillows to better accommodate alignment needs of the head and neck. This can also have an affect on shoulder pressure. Pillows often need to be changed with a change in mattress because our shoulders may sink in more or less than the old mattress which means that the gap from the head or neck to the mattress that needs to be supported may increase or decrease.
A pillow under the pelvis for stomach sleeping can help offset the natural tendency of the pelvis to sink in too far on the stomach which can lead to a hyper-extended lumbar or “swayback” and back pain
A pillow under the knees for back sleeping can rotate the pelvis and flatten the arch of the lower back which can result in better support and lessen back pain.
A pillow between the knees for side sleeping can help align the hip joint and reduce hip pain or a tendency to twist the lower back and spine (part stomach and part side sleeping).
A body pillow can reduce the tendency to shift onto the more “risky” stomach sleeping position and can help with spinal twisting and alignment.
Raising the foot of the bed slightly (with a wedge or an adjustable bed) can help alleviate back pain or hip pain (similar to a pillow under the knees on the back or between the knees on the side).
Raising the head of the bed slightly can sometimes also help with issues such as acid reflux or snoring that can be the source of tension but this is not good for stomach sleepers as it can aggravate some of the problems connected with stomach sleeping in particular.
These are all outside of the changes in a mattress itself in terms of layer thicknesses or firmness that are dealt with in other posts or in other areas of the site.
Overall … the key with symptoms of any type are changes that are “just enough” as there is usually a range where symptoms that are connected with a mattress can be helped the most. Just enough firmness, just enough thickness, and more gradual and slower changes so your body can keep up with the changes themselves can get you into the “just enough” range without reacting to symptoms that may be caused by something that happened during the day rather than the mattress itself. Patterns are always more revealing than symptoms which happen only once or randomly.
Changes that are too large can put us on the other side of our optimal range and produce similar symptoms for different reasons. A tendency to make adjustments too quickly can make it very difficult to tell which change is connected to which symptom or even if a normal daily event or “wave” was the real cause. Changes may take a few days (or sometimes longer) to be effective and reacting too quickly to either “nothing happened” or “something happened” can make it much more difficult to end up inside your “just right” range. Patterns and the general direction of improvements over time are always more accurate than individual instances of a certain symptom and will tell you more about whether a symptom is connected to getting better or getting worse.
I’ve only covered here a small part of a very complex subject (and there are many things that I’ve left out completely) but overall the best suggestion is to go slowly before you assign any “causes” to certain symptoms and give each change time to show its pattern and in which direction it’s heading. Give real thought to whether the symptoms you are experiencing are part of getting better or worse (a gradual tendency towards improvement vs a gradual tendency of symptoms getting worse or more frequent) and make changes small and incremental so that you increase the odds of getting into the range of pressure relief or alignment which is optimal for you and your long term comfort and health.
Phoenix
Hi again SleeplessinDallas,
This reply is more specific to your circumstances than the last more general thoughts that your comment and feedback “inspired”.
I am hopeful that your back pain is just a matter of adjusting to a sleeping surface that is firmer than you are used to and is simply a matter of giving it (and your body) some time to “correct” the sleeping memory from the past.
I’m assuming that the area of the pain is somewhat similar to what you have experienced after your previous mattresses softened (mid and upper back)?
It seems somewhat ironic to me that the back pain you previously experienced after some time is now happening at the beginning of a new mattress experience. Hopefully this will work the other way around starting with some pain which then goes away and stays away as much as any mattress can make it possible for this to happen.
I’ll wait to make any more comments about what may be happening or any thoughts about a solution until I hear more ongoing feedback that may give a better clue about what is happening and if there really is a “problem”.
The bad news of course is that you are experiencing pain which is never any fun regardless of the reasons. The good news is that you have adjustment options and a good manufacturer behind you along with great materials so once you get it right will “stay” right for much longer.
For now though … I hope you can “hang in there” until it becomes more clear about what is happening.
Phoenix
Thank you Phoenix!
Ironic, isn’t it? Yes-- same as always-- mid to upper pain. Seems to be mostly muscular b/c it’s usually middle to sides going outward from the spine. Not really pain along the spine if that makes sense. It’s more like screaming muscles.
I’m hoping this is just due to a correction in form while sleeping and that it will subside. If not, I’ll continue to determine what tweaks might need to be made to this one.
Stay tuned…
Sleepless, most of the time you can tell quite easily if you are having muscle-related pain or not. Just press (or have somebody else press) their finger-tips into soft tissue areas on your back (not spine) and if you feel pain then it’s likely muscle-related. Back muscles can take a while to heal up depending on which muscles and the degree of the issue, but the typical range is 2 days to 2 weeks for resolution. With an average of around 3-5 days unless it is more of an injury-related matter. When it comes to mid-section muscles (let’s call them torso muscles to include everything front, back and sides between hips and shoulders) there are internal and external types. If you strain muscles that are more interor to your torso cavity, it can be painful and not as obvious since you can’t press on those like you can the exterior. However, either way in your case it should not take long for things to resolve if you are dealing with muscle issues as it is very possible your body is just trying to adjust to the new bed. Let’s hope that’s the case.
Sonic
Hi SleeplessinDallas,
I was giving some thought to your “symptoms” and pending more feedback I thought I’d share an incredibly helpful site I discovered. It talks about the different muscle trigger points and the referred pain patterns of each muscle (which they show in a diagram). Also talks about causes and solutions with pressure point treatments and stretches.
In particular in your case … I would take a look at http://www.pressurepointer.com/Latissimus_trigger_points.htm and http://www.pressurepointer.com/trapezius_trigger_points.htm
Maybe this will help to identify your trigger points and the pain patterns connected with them which in turn could lead to a working theory (working on it) on how this is connected to your mattress experiences.
Phoenix
Hey guys,
Thank you for this site Phoenix- very helpful! And Sonic too!
So- here’s the latest…seems like less muscular now and like it’s moving closer to my spine and when I wake up it’s middle to upper, near my spine, and I feel like I need to pop my back a ton- even all the way up b/t my shoulders! So- a few good twists and pops down my spine, I get up and feel fine. But- it does not feel good when I first wake up. I am also tossing a turning a good deal at night for some reason.
I almost feel like the adjustable flex slats are actually pushing UP too much? I know they are supposed to allow you to sink more, but I’m wondering if when they are brand new if I dont weight enough to push down the latex, the coils, and into the slats? The mattress is really following the lines of the flex slats- so much so that you can actually see where the mattress rises up where each person would sleep and sort of sinks a bit in the middle-- this is bc it’s two twin xl flex slat foundations and they meet in the middle. Each foundation arches up in the center (where you sleep) and tapers on the sides.
So- I am thinking they just dont have enough give to let me sink in enough b/c I almost feel like my back is sort of arching toward the ceiling. When I sleep right in the middle where they meet and do not arch up, it seems better. I know that a solid flat wood box foundation should technically feel more firm than a flex slat foundation, but I am wondering if I should try out a solid wood flat foundation on my side and just see if that helps reduce the push back effect. I dont think it’s necessarily the latex pushing back, I think it’s the slats-- and they are open all the way for the most ability to flex. Is that possible?
I know if the mattress is too firm and not allowing my hips to sink enough, you’ll have an arch in your lower back that doesnt make contact with the mattress as well. But this is more like my middle and upper back are being pushed upward from the bed- toward the ceiling rather than letting them settle in.
Does that make sense?? I’ve attached a pic of the slats to see the arch…
Do you think it’s worth a shot to try a solid wood flat foundation or do you think that would firm it up even more?
Hi SleeplessinDallas,
I think that your question is a valid one and goes back to some of my “instinctive” concerns about how unusual this was back in post #11 here.
When I talked with them at the time they said there had been no issues with this and because I know that they listen carefully to the feedback from their customers I was satisfied that there had been no issues but your question is slightly different and has to do with the flex strength of the slats themselves and may not be something they have “connected” to certain feedback like yours.
While I have no direct experience with this combination … thinking “logically” there are a few things I would wonder about. First, the pocket coils aren’t as heavy as latex and may not pre-compress the slats to a flat position. Coils also react to pressure differently than latex because the pressure that goes “in” the top of a coil comes out the bottom in the same surface area while latex “spreads out” the pressure into a larger surface area as it goes deeper because the latex cells are all interconnected and affect the ones beside them. This means that the coils may “pass on” the contour of what is below it more easily than a latex foam core and since there are only a few inches of latex above them to “widen or even out” the pressure, it may be something that you can feel. This all means that it may very well be that the center part of the bowed slats may be slightly adding to the pressure you feel directly above them.
While all of this is “theory” of course and I don’t specifically know the firmness level of the slats, it certainly makes sense to me as a real possibility. I would probably test the theory by putting the mattress on the floor (with a blanket to protect it) if you can to see if this makes any difference before I bought a firm slatted base.
The other side of this is connected to the “popping” of your spine. Because you mentioned that you spent a good deal of time hunched over a computer (as I do), there may be a tendency towards a curvature which has become more “rigid” and the popping may be a symptom of the spine loosening into a more “normal” flexibility and position. This too is of course theory (and a chiropractor would know better than me about this) but I do know that both the process of developing a misalignment and rigidity and the process of correcting it can have similar symptoms. If this is the case … it could also account for the tossing and turning and even the “movement” of the pain/discomfort (which is not uncommon in a “healing” process) because of the of the re-alignment/adjustment process.
If you had to rate the overall discomfort … would you say it’s improved somewhat, become worse overall, or is about the same but has just changed location?
All of this is somewhat “educated” speculation of course and the real reason may be a combination of factors or even something different completely but your comments have certainly made me suspect (as you do) that the issue may be connected with the slats and if you can I would certainly test it out on a firm (and even) floor.
Phoenix
Thanks Phoenix!
You are exactly right about the weight of the coils not compressing the flex slats. The mattress very much follows the arches and dip of the flex slats. I even had them come look at it the day after it was delivered to make sure that was correct. So- the mattress is completely following the lines of the slats and not precompressing them to flatten out the mattress. Sovn has offered to let me borrow a wood slat frame to try out and see if that’s better and then go from there. Durability wise, is it ok to put a mattress with ~1500 coils (king) on a wood slat foundation as opposed to a box spring? Or if I have a really sturdy frame with lots of metal and cross beams underneath- would just a piece of plywood suffice underneath??
Another things I was just toying with was this- our queen guest bed is a very firm old Spring Air Back Supporter. Nothing special, but is always my go to when my back hurts in our bed. It has a very cheap oldish “memory foam” topper on it- about 1" and with a tiny little egg crate pattern. It feels really nice on that bed b/c it’s just enough softness on top of that firm mattress. I put it on our king (head to toe queen fits side to side king for the majority of the mattress)- it doesnt reach down past your knees, but should give an idea of how it feels in your shoulders, back, and hips. Since I do like (and am accustomed to) the memory foam feel, I wonder if just 1" on top of the 25ILD talalay latex and firm coils might be just enough to relieve just a bit of pressure and give me a more familiar feel while not compromising support. I think I’ll try it tonight and just see how it feels. Worst case it’s awful and I will not be getting one in a king. 
About my back- very interesting point about the damage and correction process. I would say that the pain has been better than before- it’s also moved. It’s gone from what seems like really angry muscles in my middle back to just a little higher and closer to my spine- again, the need to twist and pop my spine. But, once I swist and pop, it feels a lot better and the pain does not linger through the day like it used to, so that’s good. It hasnt been enough to make me retreat to the guest room like usual, so I think we’re making progress here for sure! And with a mattress this firm with these materials I am hoping the sag factor will be highly unlikely like we discussed. So- just a few tweaks and maybe we’ll get this just right!!!
Hi SleeplessinDallas,
If the slats are close enough together that there isn’t any danger of some of the coils sitting on and “going through” a gap or being only partly supported on the edge of a slat and partly sagging then I would think it would be fine. It would feel more “comfortable” to me if there was something to support the coils in the gaps though if the coils don’t have any base foam under them. The plywood would probably be fine on the frame and the coil support would be more even as long as it’s well supported to the floor (which it seems it would be) to keep it from sagging.
While anything is possible … I would be really surprised if a 1" softened memory foam topper compromised your support and I think it would be well worth a try.
Given all your reports and the direction of the changes that are happening … I’m pretty confident that you’re not far off and that a little time (for you) and a little tweaking (on the mattress) will get you there. As a further comment too regarding the healing or adjustment process, (and the area of natural healing has been an area of long term interest and “indirect” involvement for me for many years), it’s not at all unusual when dealing with pain that a practitioner will have to “chase the pain” as one area gets better and another area that was connected to it and somewhat masked takes over when the first one improves.
Like you said the good news is that the mattress won’t be softening so that when it’s right … it can stay right!
Phoenix
Well…I am thrilled to report that with the 1" cheap-o memory foam topper last night, I slept GREAT! I slept pretty solid with little tossing and turning, very minimal aches this morning, and I didn’t even want to get out of bed last night. Crazy! And for some reason my husband has actually been snoring since we got the new bed and didn’t last night. But he said he was a little restless last night. Anyway- we’ll give it another few nights before adjusting anything else. I think maybe the 1" of memory foam could possibly be just enough “softness” to feel familiar and cozy without compromising support.
I feel kind of like an idiot to put a cheap-o topper on this expensive bed, but hey- whatever works, right?
If this continues to work, we’ll be in the market for a 1" king size convoluted memory foam topper- something that’s nice and soft. Some of the cheap ones tend to feel kind of hard or even crunchy? Ours is nice and soft, but is only a queen
Hi SleeplessinDallas,
That’s GREAT news. It seems that just a little bit of extra cush can make a big difference.
No arguments here … and I’d rather be an idiot (lots of my friends think I am anyway) than sore!
Yes, the lower quality memory foams often have less “memory” and are stiffer when they’re cold and often too soft when they warm up. In memory foam, higher quality usually pays, especially when it’s the top layer … although higher quality doesn’t always mean really expensive with all the wide range of pricing and value that’s out there.
Phoenix
Phoenix,
When you have a moment, I would love suggestions of where to buy just a simple 1" (or slightly less) memory foam topper. I do seem to like convoluted, but it’s not 100% necessary. And I’d like it to be soft and rather inexpensive
I am also not opposed to like 1" of maybe 19" ILD talalay- something also quite soft, but not sure if it would have the same feel?
Appreciate all of your help!
Hi SleeplessinDallas,
I haven’t forgotten you and as I have the chance I’m looking around for 1" better quality memory foam toppers which are not so common (more common 2" and up which I would avoid). I’ll post here what I discover.
In terms of latex … probably the closest to memory foam is 14 ILD. Most memory foams range from about 9 ILD to about 18 or so (and the majority are under 15) but of course the comparison is not so direct because of how memory foam takes time to get soft and latex is more instant so it doesn’t take any time to respond either with compression or release.
Do you happen to know what the density or type of the memory foam you have is (not that it will be like new any more but I thought it might give me a sense of the general type of foam it was)?
Phoenix
Hi SleeplessinDallas,
Well … I think the best I’ve seen so far both in terms of the variety of choices and pricing is …
http://www.cymax.com/Mattress-Toppers--C1099.htm?Sort=Price-Asc&Count=60 . They have Mem-cool (which I think is Aerus), Sensus, and a whole bunch more and best of all … there are lots of 1" choices and they also sell covers if you need them.
http://search1.unbeatablesale.com/?vno=96&Ne=1000013&N=1000048+4294965946&Ntt=topper Also sell Aerus in 1" and lots more.
The other strange thing is that Cymax also seems to sell Venus 8 lb memory foam (which hasn’t been available in a topper for several years) but you have to go to the Sears website to find that out. Go figure.
There’s about as many good quality/low cost memory foam options here as I think anyone could handle
Phoenix
Thanks so much Phoenix, very helpful!
The one we have now is literally a super cheap topper from Bed Bath and Beyond. It’s 1" convulted- the egg crate pattern is very small- smaller than the usual eggcrate pattern and it’s pretty soft.
Yesterday, I swapped my flex slats out for the solid wood slats- actually just borrowing them for about 10 days or so to try it out. It’s nice- very solid pieces of wood, close together- maybe only an inch or so apart. It certainly does make the mattress feel less bouncy- more firm. But, it was good last night- no back pain at all this morning and since it’s Saturday, I slept a few hours longer than weeknights, which usually makes my back hurt more. I didn’t have the topper on last night b/c I wanted to just try it with the mattress only with the solid foundation and see how it was. It was comfy enough, but not ‘cozy’, so I might try the topper again to see how that feels as well.
My only challenge now is that my husband says he sleeping restlessly earlier this week (with topper) and that he had some lower back pain this morning (no topper last night), which kind of perplexes me. He still has the flex slats on his side. So, we’ll keep tweaking a bit and see what we can learn.
Since this thread is a few years old, I would like to know if anyone has any long term analysis and reviews of the Sealy Embody Introspection mattress and how it compares to the Tempurpedic brand? I have Polartec sweatshirts and they keep me warm in the winter, so how can the Sealy Embody have Polartec and not feel hot? My Tempurpedic is about 10 years old and doesn’t feel hot at all. What is the longevity and feel of the Sealy Emobdy Introspection to let’s say the original Tempurpedic?
Hi Rohrgatz,
The Sealy Embody Introspection is no longer available so it may be somewhat of a moot point but to answer your question you would need to compare the introspection to a specific Tempurpedic mattress because outside of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences), a mattress is only as good as its construction and the quality and durability of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label.
There is more about the 3 most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that can help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses based on their suitability and PPP, their durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.
The first of these is PPP (how well you sleep on a mattress) and is something that only you can answer based on your own testing or personal experience because a mattress that is a perfect “match” for one person may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on.
The second (durability or how long you will sleep well) depends on knowing the type and quality of the materials inside the mattresses you are comparing so you can identify any lower quality materials or potential “weak links” in their design and make more “apples to apples” durability comparisons. This is certainly something that I can help with if the type and quality/density of the materials and components of both of the mattresses you are comparing are known (see this article)
The third (comparing for “value”) depends on #1 and #2 in addition to all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you. Once again this is something that only you can decide because each person can have very different criteria about what they are looking for in a mattress that is important to them.
Polartec traps air and is insulating (which helps to prevent heat loss) but is also very breathable (which helps with moisture transport to carry excess heat and humidity away from the body) so it’s a temperature regulating material not just a material to keep you warm. This would be similar to wool which is used in the arctic (in thicker layers) and in the desert (in thinner layers) to help regulate temperature in both directions. There is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress relative to different people in post #2 here and the posts it links to.
While memory foam tends to sleep warmer than other types of mattresses … each person can be different depending on where they are in the “oven to iceberg” range and their own personal “comfort zone” for temperature. “Most” people are OK with “most” memory foam mattresses in terms of sleeping temperature (depending on the specifics of the mattress design) but there are a higher percentage of people that tend to sleep hot on memory foam than other types of mattresses and materials.
Feel is very subjective so outside of the typical “slow response” and “in the mattress” feel of memory foam in general it would depend on each person’s individual perceptions and you generally won’t find a consensus of opinions about how any mattress “feels” between people.
While there is no way to quantify how long any mattress will last for any particular person, if a mattress is well inside a suitable comfort/support range and isn’t close to the edge of being too soft when it is new and meets the minimum quality specs that are suggested in the guidelines here then it would be reasonable to expect a useful lifetime in the range of 7 - 10 years and with higher quality and more durable materials like latex or higher density memory foam or polyfoam (in the comfort layers especially) it would likely be in the higher end of the range or even longer.
It’s always more realistic to think of about 10 years as a maximum reasonable expectation for any mattress no matter what the quality or durability of the materials and then treat any additional time after that as “bonus time” because after about 10 years the limiting factor in the useful life of a mattress will often be the changing needs and preferences of the person sleeping on the mattress and even if a mattress is still in good condition after a decade … a mattress that was suitable for someone 10 years earlier may not be the best “match” any longer.
Having said that … with higher quality materials throughout a mattress and/or for people whose needs and preferences or physical condition or body type hasn’t changed much over 10 years then “bonus time” or even “extended bonus time” with higher quality/density and more durable materials like latex or higher density memory foam or polyfoam or natural fibers is much more likely than with less durable materials.
As an example … there is a comparison between the Sealy Introspection and the Tempurpedic Bellafina (which is also no longer available) in post #5 here and in the case of this specific comparison I would give the durability edge to the Tempurpedic Bellafina. The Introspection may have also used 1.5 lb polyfoam support core rather than the 1.8 lb I “guessed” at which would reduce it’s durability slightly as well … especially for those that are in higher weight ranges.
Phoenix