Reading reviews is the least reliable way to evaluate a mattress, its materials, durability or appropriateness for one person as compared to another (see post #13 here). A mattress than one person or group of people feel is “too firm” would have no meaningful correlation to what might feel good to other individuals, as there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved in choosing a mattress for someone else to make specific suggestions based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or theory at a distance that can possible be more accurate than your own careful and objective testing (using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) which is always the most reliable way to predict which mattress will be the best match for you in terms of PPP (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here), and I could point to just as many people who complain that everything they try online is “too soft”.
While I’m sorry you don’t enjoy the comfort of your older Tuft & Needle mattress, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a “terrible” bed (which would be more of a reflection on the quality of material) – just one that unfortunately apparently doesn’t meet your personal comfort preference. Being an all polyfoam mattress I wouldn’t expect it to feel as soft as the memory foam mattresses that you prefer.
There are transparent online-only mattress companies, just as there are transparent brick and mortar retailers, but I am in agreement that there are still too many who don’t do a good enough job of providing more objective and complete information to consumers. And that of course has been one of the goals of this site – to bring to the attention of consumers what to look for in a mattress and help build awareness for some of the manufacturers who are “doing it right”.
No, there are plenty of plush mattresses sold online, both compressed and boxed. Many “simplified choice” mattresses are even offered by manufacturers in multiple choice configurations from firm to plush.
There are plenty of “plush” memory foam options available online and many that people consider “too plush” (you don’t have to read too far back into the forum to find people with that opinon :cheer: ). But whether or not you’d consider these plush enough for your taste can only be determined through you own personal testing. New boxed-bed mattresses are being announced every week in the industry, and there are some good memory foam options listed in post #21 here and post #12 here.
Interesting comment I got when I asked one of the companies about 1.8 base layer density being weight sensitive. This was the response.
No, the 1.8lbs base is the sweet spot for bed in box mattresses as higher base density will not decompress properly and sometimes cause the mattress to loose height when unboxed.
Nolah is another boxed bed mattress. It was mentioned in passing previously once on the forum.
The specs are:
2" 2.75 lb polyfoam
1" 4 lb Avena polyfoam
7" 1.8 lb polyfoam support core
The top polyfoam layer is one of the newer generations of “high performance” polyfoams that exhibit some of the softer characteristics of memory foam, without the viscous-changing nature. The Avena polyfoam is a more resistive (more rebound, or bounce) type of polyfoam. The core itself is 1.8 lb polyfoam. This product would raise no “red flags” for someone in a more “normal” BMI range, but I would advise a slight caution for someone in a higher BMI range.
Perhaps they have had such an experience with a certain type of foam they were supplied, but it would not be an accurate statement for what is generally experienced by the rest of the industry.
I see that the Nolah and Leesa use Aveena, except in differing part of the mattress. (Leesa = top layer, Nolah = 2nd). What are your thoughts on the differences in feel and durability between these two mattresses?
I don’t have any personal experiences with either product, but even if I did, I would keep in mind that there are no “standard” definitions or consensus of opinions for mattress firmness ratings and different manufacturers (and people) can rate mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer (or person) rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer.
Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they “rate” a mattress as well (see post #15 here) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science.
When you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation (see post #4 here) with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and “feel” of the materials they are using (resilience, firmness, etc.) and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs and firmness levels to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with) than anyone else.
When “evaluating” any mattress, I would always make sure that you find out the information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.
The Nolah is comprised of:
2" 2.75 lb polyfoam
1" 4 lb Avena polyfoam
7" 1.8 lb polyfoam support core
This product would raise no “red flags” for someone in a more “normal” BMI range, but I would advise a slight caution for someone in a higher BMI range (30+).
The Leesa is comprised of:
2" 3.65 lb Avena polyfoam (20-26 IFD)
2" 3lb Memory foam (9 IFD)
6" Polyfoam 1.8 lb density (32-38 IFD)
The Avena polyfoam is good quality, but I would be cautious because of the 2" of 3 lb memory foam in the comfort layers which could be a weak link in the mattress in terms of durability.
The Aveena on the Nolah is a full inch lower than the Leesa, although its weight rating is a tad more. With that said, how would you rate the durability of the Aveena between the two - all else equal?
I linked in my previous reply to you regarding mattress durability, which outlines the things to look for in a mattress to help give you the best chance at a longer comfort life. From that link:
[i]While there is no way to specifically quantify or predict how long any mattress will maintain it’s comfort and/or support for any particular person for certain or how long it will take before they cross the thresholds between sleeping well on a mattress to sleeping “OK” to tolerating a mattress to finally deciding to replace it because it is no longer suitable or comfortable for them (because this is the only real measure of durability or the useful life of a mattress that really matters) and because there are too many unknowns and variables involved that are unique to each person … if you have confirmed that it meets the minimum quality/durability specifications relative to your BMI that are suggested in these guidelines then it would be reasonable to expect a useful lifetime in the range of 7 - 10 years and with higher quality and more durable materials than the minimum guidelines suggested in this article like latex or higher density memory foam or polyfoam (in the upper layers especially) it would likely be in the higher end of the range or even longer and the chances that you would have additional “bonus time” beyond that would be higher as well.
In order to make a reasonable assessment of the durability of a mattress and bearing in mind that because of all the many variables involved that no set of guidelines will be 100% accurate … and to greatly shift the odds of buying a mattress that will maintain its comfort and support for many years in your favor … this is how to assess the durability and useful life of a mattress based on the materials and components inside it regardless of how long the mattress has been available for sale or the name of the manufacturer on the label.[/i]
Mattress durability is determined by many factors. If you’d like to learn more about that, you can take some time and read through the more detailed information presented in post #2 here.
Under comparisons in the beginning of this thread, it lists BME as 4lb for the 2 layers of Titan Flex Foam but it is actually 2lb for each. Here is a chat this morning copied and pasted.
You — Please update your info
Good morning, could you please tell me the densities of the 2 top layers in the BME. I have seen 4lb and also 2lb.
Chat started
Keaton joined the chat
Keaton
Good morning!
It will be a 2lb density!
You — Please update your info
Thuse are the top 2 Titan Flex layers?
Keaton
Correct
You — Please update your info
Thank you for clarifying that
Actually, I see Mario had previously said 4lbs. Another site says they were told 2lbs and then Keaton said 2lbs. Doesn’t seem like they are exactly sure , either that they are just not on the same page.
I went to BB chat and explained having different answers and was given the following info. Keaton said he was checking with his manager. This was the response.
The density of the latex will differ depending on the comfort level you choose, the comfort level 6 will have a 3.8lb density but the comfort level 8 will translate to a 3.2lb density
It was my understanding that Titan Flex is not latex. That is why you go to these companies to avoid uniformed salesman and so you can get informed, accurate information.
I made some changes for the different layers of the TitanFlex foam for the BME, as I was provided some clarification on the densities. The softer TitanFlex (13 ILD) is approximately 3 lb density, the medium (18 ILD) is approximately 3.5 lb and the firm is approximately 4 lb.
And yes, TitanFlex is not latex but a high-performance polyfoam with a resiliency similar to latex. Unfortunately, sometimes you can get a customer service person who is either new or confused with specifications. I forwarded your comments to BB, as I’m sure they’d want to be aware of that and help correct anyone involved in providing that information.
Thanks for the update. Mario in his response on the forum to BME changes stated 4lbs, he is sales manager and Keaton is not a recent hire and he said 2lbs and after talking to his manager mentions latex which is not even part of the mattress. So they were all wrong. Without trying to be abrasive, I find that very disappointing. People can make mistakes but they should be better informed in my opinion. Thanks for passing that along.
UPDATE FOR DROMMA:
I was looking into the Dromma bed but found they have changed their components and options. I was excited about a latex/memory foam hybrid in two firmnesses but that has changed. They have gotten rid of the latex and replaced it with “Adapt foam” and now only have one firmness (their old “medium firm”) and got rid of “medium soft”. As per my conversation with their representative, here are the new specs:
[i]Good afternoon Stephanie, per our conversation earlier here is the ILD information for the bed.
Base 33 ILD
Middle 12 ILD
Top: 21 ILD
Here is some information about Adapt-Foam.
1.5″ Top Layer of Adapt Ultra-Responsive Performance Foam – provides support & bounce, with open cell technology for increased air circulation.
It is a more responsive foam due to the open cell technology which allows the foam to breath better and react when weight is applied to it. It will spring back quicker then closed cell memory foam.[/i]
I think this rules it out for me (I was hoping for medium soft) but I am curious if Phoenix has any thoughts on the newer materials.
Thanks for providing the updates on the Dromma mattress. It seems that they have kept the memory foam layer and the polyfoam core the same (eliminating the “softer” polyfoam core), and the upper latex layer has been replaced with the same 1.5" thickness of one of these newer generation of “high performance” polyfoams that are softer but buoyant and more durable than lower-density polyfoams without the viscous properties of memory foam. The “adapt” polyfoam is 3.2 lb in density, which would be a good quality material.
I just want to commend you for the effort you put into your posts and replies. They are always very informative and the linking to relevant prior posts is particularly helpful.
Hello, all! I ran across this interesting article abbout the trouble some of these mattress reviewer sites have gotten into – thought some of you might find it… uh, illuminating:
Apparently Purple has pulled something similar with someone else. Anyway, I realize this is sort of off-topic, but I didn’t find it important enough to create a new thread for, but still thought some might find it an interesting read.
Also, speaking of Casper… I notice they have two new models, the Wave and the Essential. Do we know of more detailed specs for either, yet?.
Yeah, that’s an interesting article, isn’t it? I read it yesterday. Information some of us involved in doing mattress research were aware of, but nice for someone to connect the dots. The cases with Casper and Purple are very different. The involvement of JAKK in the review site purchase and changes made soon thereafter are interesting, and I’ll be looking to see what happens eventually with the ownership of that site long-term. You should go to HMR and read the disclaimer that they have to place at the top of their web pages, and then click on the link that redirects to the most recent court ruling on that case and you can see the tangled web between that review site and a mattress company and even some of the false reviews a family member of that mattress company posted online. A lot of this is disgusting, but there’s so much money in affiliate advertising that things like this were bound to happen and eventually be exposed. But I know this isn’t the place for such discussions, and Phoenix keeps above such fray (probably for good reason), but as someone who has been following this, I thought I’d throw in my 2 cents.
The new Casper stuff has been discussed earlier on the forum, starting with this post. The Wave was discussed briefly here. And apparently Serta is suing them regarding the Wave for what they say is copying a patented design held by Serta.
Yeah, that’s the other reason I didn’t make a topic over it – on top of not really being the purpose of the forum, the subject matter itself is kind of “loaded,” so to speak. I thought the article was fascinating (and informative!) enough, however, that I’d at least take a chance at a more obscure/subtle post. I do personally think it was worth a read.
