Sleep deprived. Research overload. Please help. Latex.

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
10

Phoenix,

Your recommendation to “test” a bed is a good one. I was having a very hard time finding a pure latex bed to test and was thinking that based on your posts, I may test a pure latex bed, order something similar online and end up getting something subjectively different.

Anyhoo, I have found a latex store here in LI that sells all sorts of yummy mattresses (including latex):

After reading about 500 more posts on this site and visiting about 15 more external websites, I have come to the conclusion that it may be best to simply shell out a little more for the pure latex bliss beautiful (queen), if I can get it for around 2800. (Or even the nutrition).

Can you send me some forum links as to why I should or shouldn’t consider pure latex bliss?

The few people on this site who have one really do seem to love it (some may think it’s too soft- but soft is “good” in my book). Of the few people who do review their beds, I have found some unhappy with flo, sleepez and brooklyn bedding (sometimes because they ended up with the what they feel is the wrong firmness level). I guess its tough because these beds can’t truly be “tested” and if you check out a pure latex bliss and love it, based on what you have written, I can’t simply order a flobed with an equal amount of latex and expect the same thing because there are many variables to the equation. Correct?

I really don’t think I need a customized bed. But when I awake tomorrow after a good nights sleep, I am sure I may change my mind for the 50th time.

It is somewhat of a difficult task to just bite the bullet and “just order” because the fact is you cannot test out a lot of the beds sold by some of these online retailers. And as others have pointed out, returning the entire bed is not feasible and swapping out layers does not always result in a satisfied customer.

11

Hi NeedABedASAP14,

They would certainly be a good place to test some latex mattresses that were on the softer side. A forum search on sleepworksny (you can just click this) will bring up some comments and feedback about them as well.

There are probably hundreds of posts in the forum about Pure Latex Bliss and dozens about the Beautiful (a forum search on PLB Beautiful as an example will bring up over 200 posts).

The reasons I would consider the PLB mattresses is that they all use good quality materials (talalay latex) and along with their topper options they have a wide range of “sleeping systems” to choose from that would “fit” a large percentage of people (who liked latex). They are generally “better than average” value compared to many mainstream mattresses but it can pay to do some comparison shopping because even though advertised prices are “controlled” by PLB … there is a range of prices between retailers across the country. Some of the retailers that you can use as a pricing reference (or for price matching) are listed in post #32 here.

Outside of any differences in pricing between the Beautiful and similar mattresses that use 12" of latex or have options for exchanging layers … the main “caution” about the Beautiful is that it is very soft and there have been some people on the forum who fell in love with it’s “feel” in the showroom and then discovered it was too soft for them for good alignment and they needed to exchange it so I would make sure you do some careful and objective testing for PPP.

A local purchase vs an online purchase and the benefits of each are part of each person’s personal value equation and there are many people who are much more comfortable testing and buying a mattress locally vs an online purchase even if the cost is higher.

There are several ways that one mattress may “match” another (see post #9 here) but the only way that you would have an “exact” or at least very close match is if both mattresses used the same materials in the same thickness and firmness level and the same cover and it would be rare that two mattresses would match this closely. Other than that … you would find that some mattresses would be equivalent to each other in one way or another (particularly if the top 5" or 6" and the cover were very similar in terms of the type of materials, layer thickness, and cover) but different people may have different perceptions of how closely they would “match” because of different body types and sleeping positions. This is where subjective perceptions about smaller differences in a mattress come into play. The top 2 layers of the Beautiful are both 3" thick so it would be a little more common to find a mattress that had two top layers in the same thickness that were in a similar ILD range which for some people would feel quite similar while for others would not be as close.

This again varies with each person’s “risk tolerance” and there are a high percentage of customers that are satisfied with their first choice or with a single layer exchange but there are always a smaller percentage who find it more difficult to find the best layering for them. Several of the online manufacturers on the list have a very low cost or no cost return policy as well that allows their customers to return the mattress so with these manufacturers it’s certainly feasible to return the mattress as a “last resort” if there are no other options remaining.

Phoenix

12

Thanks for the input, Phoenix.

Let’s see what happens at Sleepworks. It’s ok if they aren’t super knowledgeable about the mattresses as I’ll do the research myself.

Thanks,
Tired

13

So I went to Sleepworks…

I don’t like the Pure Latex Bliss. It is too “springy” and when you move around I feel you are definitely moving around completely on top of the mattress. Sure, the beautiful is soft, but still a little springy (like a trampoline). They also had it (the beautiful) for 4100, which is like 1400 more than I saw online. They had almost the entire line of pure bliss mattresses . Oddly enough, he said 90% of his customers who choose anything softer than the Beautiful end up getting a talalay topper as well. That is really neither here nor there as I have eliminated PLB from contention.

He also had a Natural Elegance “Paradise”. It was a pillow-top, 4 inches of what I believe to be blended latex, but super soft and almost “foamy” in its qualities. The base layers included a thin layer of Dunlop and a 5 or six inch soy based foam core. The mattress was “organic” - not that it matters to me. The price is 2599.99 for just the mattress and $2920 including tax/delivery.

They had a shipment coming in and he was willing to do $2500/out the door and delivered and I was about to do it to have this entire mattress fiasco be over with, until I read your comments on King Coil and their desire to keep their materials secretive. The bed had awesome edge support, had a bamboo cover, was organic, seemed super solid, was nice and plush without being “too sinky” or “too springy”. Now I realize this bed may have “weak links”, but how the heck am I supposed to find a non weak-link imitation of this bed online? If I knew of an imitation that used the same stuff and had no weak links, I would order it this second as I think this bed is less likely to have sagging issues in the future (as compared to memory foam).

They also had an Aireloom Belmont Plush with the cooling top. This bed was 2699.99. This bed also had AWESOME edge support, you sank in but it felt A LOT more supportive than the Temper models and it definitely felt luxurious. All that said, you didn’t “feel” the quality of the top foam anymore than any other major brand and certainly sagging could be an issue within a few years. But let me tell you, the bed felt freaking awesome, at least for the couple of minutes I relaxed in it.

I feel like I am back to square one. What I do think I have realized is I don’t want 100% latex, because it is too springy. Then again, I don’t know what online brands might have a latex that is blended or altered enough so it isn’t springy. I do still like high quality memory foam - so long as it has great support and the bed doesn’t swallow you. I also NEED edge support. Beds without edge support become “smaller” and for two people (on the occasion I actually have a female overnight guest :open_mouth: ) and a dog, you need all of the surface area on a queen.

I don’t know Phoenix, at this point I am about to go to the sale at Macy’s and call it a day. I’m so tired of calling people, doing research, trying mattresses and I really just want to get a bed. But I don’t want to be in the position of sending bed layers back and forth in the mail because I didn’t get the bed I wanted in the first place. All that said, I don’t think I’m that picky (comparatively speaking, there appears to be even more picky bed enthusiasts on this site) with my requirements.

Thanks,
Lost

14

Hi NeedABedASAP14,

I would ask the retailer for the specs of the mattress. Many manufacturers will disclose their “better” materials and the latex would be good quality. They will also usually disclose the types of materials in the layers (even if they don’t disclose the quality) and if the top layers are all latex and don’t include more than “about an inch or so” of lower density or unknown polyfoam or memory foam then there would be no obvious weak links.

I would also want to know the density of the base layer but this would be a less significant factor in durability.

The first step would be to get a list of all the layers (which the manufacturer should be able to provide) and then look at it and see if there are any layers where knowing the density would be important. If you list the layers that they can provide I’d be happy to make more comments about it.

The next step to “approximate” this mattress (if you decide not to purchase it) with an online purchase would be to find out the more detailed specifics of what was in it and then you would have a reference point that you could use to choose an online mattress that was close to the same design as possible (in terms of the type, thickness, and firmness of the layers) although there may still be some differences between them that you could feel depending on how closely the designs matched each other. this is the part that may be more difficult. Most of the “initial feel” of a mattress would be in the top 5" or 6" or so and this would be the part that I would focus on “matching” most closely. If you have the option of exchanging layers then if your initial online choice wasn’t ideal for you then you could use your sleeping experience as a reference point and choose a softer or firmer comfort layer that would be a better match for you in terms of PPP.

This is a common reaction to the Aireloom mattresses but again … without knowing the quality of the comfort layers especially then you would have no assurance that what you “feel” in a showroom will last for long enough to justify the price and the risk of premature foam softening or breakdown would be higher and your feelings about the mattress could be very different in a few years.

This at least has eliminated one of your options and you have identified some of the criteria that are important to you and you also know that you tend to prefer memory foam so all of these are important parts of the process IMO so I would say that you are well ahead of step 1. If you can identify the materials in the layers of the mattresses that you liked then you would have good reference points for the type of materials and mattresses you tend to prefer.

If you test mattresses where you know ahead of time that you won’t be able to find out what is inside them then even if you like it your testing would have little value to you as far as using it as a reference point and may become quite frustrating unless you are willing to buy the specific mattress you tested and are OK with a higher risk purchase in terms of durability and that you can’t make any meaningful comparisons with other mattresses in terms of quality or value.

You certainly wouldn’t be the first one to buy a mattress out of pure frustration rather than based on meaningful information or comparisons but IMO a mattress is one of the most important purchases you can make and will have a bigger effect on the quality of your sleep and your overall well being both waking and sleeping over the next decade or so than almost anything else you can buy. If you make a blind purchase out of frustration then I would ask yourself whether you are OK with repeating all of this in two or three years or so down the road.

I personally believe that the “risk” of an online purchase is much less than the risk of a “blind” purchase if there are no better local options available to you because at least you would normally still have good options available after the purchase but of course each person can be very different in terms of the type of purchase they are most comfortable with.

Phoenix

15

I called King Coil and as an FYI, according to the lady on the phone, Natural Elegance is not a King Coil mattress (Dr. Breus is their equivalent?).

Natural Elegance is however manufactured in one of the same factories that makes King Coil mattresses out in CT. She didn’t know any more info. as to how to contact Natural Elegance.

Shady.

16

Hi NeedABedASAP14,

This is “somewhat correct” but not completely correct.

The Natural Elegance trademark is owned by Blue Bell Mattress Co which is a Comfort Solutions licensee. It’s a “de facto” Comfort Solutions brand just like King Koil even though it’s technically a Blue Bell brand.

You can read a little more in this thread.

Some contact information is here or on the last page of the warranty information here.

Your best odds of finding out the layering may be by having the retailer talk to their rep.

Phoenix

17

Phoenix/Bed Enthusiasts,

Has anyone on the site purchased the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous? I know Phoenix, you don’t necessarily prefer the Bayer form, but based on the densities, the little bit of latex and some convoluted foam - I am thinking this mattress is going to be “soft”, “supportive” and somewhat “durable”.

Thanks,
Ready to buy something site unseen

18

Hi NeedABedASAP14,

They would be able to give you a better description of objective and subjective properties of their mattress but the Rendezvous uses good quality materials and there are no weak links in the mattress. In terms of quality, the Bayer foam would compare to others of the same density. In terms of “feel” this is much more subjective and would depend on the more detailed specifics of the mattress and the perceptions of the person sleeping on it.

As you know I think highly of Rocky Mountain Mattress and they are one of the members here which means that I believe they compete well with the best in the country in terms of their quality, value, and service.

The Rendezvous would be a little different from many other memory foam mattresses because it has a quilting layer of good quality polyfoam over the memory foam which would provide a little more resilient sleeping surface than sleeping directly on the memory foam itself and the latex underneath would also add to the resilience of the comfort layers to some degree as well. You can read more about a quilting layer over memory foam in post #2 here.

If the mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP it would certainly make a good choice.

Phoenix

19

Alright, Phoenix. About to the pull the trigger on a RMM mattress. Just talked to Lane over there and here is what I am thinking:

2" of Bayer Softcel Supersoft Foam quilted into top: 12-14 ild
2 2" (=4") of five pound Bayer Softcel Memory Foam:12-14 ild
1" of Firm Talalay Latex: 32 ild
1.5" of Bayer Ultracel Convoluted Foam - 1.8 (2.4 also available): ild 28
5.5" of Bayer Ultracel Extra Firm Polyurethane for Lumbar Support 2.4 (1.8 also available): 36 ild
.
Based on the materials alone, this combination would suggest a quality mattress. I just have to hope it ends up being “plush soft” like a pillowtop, slightly mushy like a memory foam and supportive enough for my body like a very well made coil mattress.

Any suggestions on the bottom two layers or anything else? I went 1.8 on the 1.5 inch and 2.4 on the very bottom. But given the thickness and low ild of the top layers, I think this mattress should still have plenty of softness to it.

Almost there.
Sleep deprived

20

Hi NeedABedASAP14,

It would certainly make a good choice in terms of the quality of the materials and “in theory” it would also seem to be a good match for your criteria (enough softness in the comfort layers and good support below them and a little more resilience for the sleeping surface than sleeping directly on the memory foam) but “theory at a distance” is never as accurate as your own personal sleeping experience so “best judgement” in combination with the more detailed conversations you have had with the manufacturer is always the best way to make the choice that has the highest odds of success.

Without specific reference points … my “best suggestion” is to go with the “best effort” suggestions of the manufacturer. If the 2.4 lb polyfoam is the same ILD it would likely have a higher compression modulus (gets firmer faster with deeper compression) and be a little bit more “supportive” but you are looking at fine details that aren’t really possible to predict with certainty in terms of how “theory” will translate into your real life sleeping experience.

Phoenix

21

I ordered the Rendezvous. Will it sleep exactly how I want it to…well, probably not. But the materials are super solid, one would think it should last at least ten years, be a little less susceptible to sag as compared to Temper and Aireloom and it should be a mattress that is well above average in terms of promoting proper sleep posture/tension/all that good stuff.

While I do risk not knowing exactly how it sleeps, I am getting a mattress that might have cost almost twice as much with a “name brand”.

Thanks for everything and I PROMISE to write two reviews of the mattress for the forum. The initial upon delivery and a follow-up review a few months down the road. I realize comfort is subjective, but knowing someone else is satisfied with a particular mattress does go a long way towards comforting a potential buyer who will never have a chance to “test” such a mattress for themselves.

22

Hi NeedABedASAP14,

I couldn’t agree more with all the points you made … and you certainly ended up with a great quality/value mattress.

So congratulations on your new mattress … and I’m certainly looking forward to your feedback when you’ve received it and have had the chance to sleep on it for a while :slight_smile:

Thanks as well for sharing all your questions and feedback along the way.

Phoenix

23

During my research I felt the same way on a 100% latex. I chose a hybrid 12.5 individual coil with 6 in Talalay latex they high density type. They make different densities in Talalay latex. You will know just by laying on it and cost. It is covered with bamboo and sewn with Kevlar . The maker is Lebeda a smaller company that sells direct and customizes. It is adjustable bed base compliant and has coils. It was by far the best it is edged with a small foam frame but uses a box on the coil. It has a 730 day comfort guarantee plus the 15 non pro rated warranty. Got into that a little bit but the owner said,here’s customers who own the bed ask them ( being nice not rude). The owner said if you call with an issue I ask what would you like us to do. They will firm up or soften it up or whatever within 730 days. I figured that was good enough. So maybe a hybrid is what you need.

24

Chief,

That sounds like a really nice mattress. I went to the website, almost looks like the Natural Elegance I was considering from a local bedding store. Do you have it now? If so, how do you like it?

I do think a hybrid will be best for me. The 100% latex of every Pure Latex Bliss model I tried didn’t work for me and in general, memory foam can swallow me a little more than I would like. If the memory foam isn’t swallowing me, then it was too hard and I just couldn’t get comfortable. With pure memory foam (without even a quilted top), I also worry about sag issues. I know very few memory foam owners (pure memory foam and nothing else) whose mattress didn’t get major sag impressions within three or four years.

If I am going to spend more than four or five hundred bucks on a mattress, I want it to stay in decent shape for ten years or so. That’s probably a little more important to me than 100% comfortability.

Once the Rendevous comes, either I will be vindicated for having done a crapload of research and really thought about the purchase…or I will feel like an idiot for buying something so expensive online. So long as it is reasonably comfortable and appears as if it will be with me for the long-haul, I expect the former more than the latter. But that is the risk you take in the mattress games.

Can’t wait to sleep on a real bed again,
Tired

25

Hello Forum,

As promised, I wanted to come back to review my Rocky Mountain Mattress (RMM). I purchased the Rendevous.

My mattress configuration:

2" of Supersoft Foam ILD 12
4" (2 separate 2") of 5lbs l Memory Foam ILD 14
1.5" of Ultracel Convoluted Foam Density 1.8 ILD 28
1" of Firm Latex 32ILD
5.5" of Bayer Ultracel Extra Firm Polyurethane for Lumbar Support ILD 36 2.4 density
Sides heavy duty extra support

The total was a tick over $1900.

In terms of Tempur comparisons, I believe the Rendezvous is meant to compare to the Tempur Rhapsody. Having tried all the Tempur models a few times, I would say that my bed DEFINITELY has just a little more sink (which I like) than the Rhapsody. Also, it’s just a different feel. A better feel in my opinion. In terms of softness levels, I would compare my bed more to the Supreme Breeze (which is a little stiffer than the Supreme Breeze without the gel top).

I have had the mattress for about a month now and I am VERY pleased. After a lot of research, I ended up realizing I did want memory foam because I felt on latex (yes, I physically tried all Latex Bliss models) I was laying completely “on top” of the bed. That said, I was very worried about a few things with memory foam:

  1. Near future sag issues (I hopefully remedied this by doing a lot of research and choosing a company that uses very high quality memory foam materials. I also went “harder” on the lower layers to help with future sag.

  2. Some memory foam, while a delight to sink into, simply couldn’t be that good for support? So, at least that is what I think. The Temper Luxe for example is like sinking into heaven at first. But I could see how support could be an issue. Again, I went harder on the lower layers and while soft, this bed doesn’t swallow you whole like quicksand.

  3. I wanted memory foam within a “bed” look. I think brands that allow you to switch out memory foam parts are cool, but I am thinking the bed can’t be as sturdy if you can unzip and just start willy nilly start taking out different pieces of the bed. I also feel like memory foam encased in a bed shell gives more edge support than a tempur and I was right. This bed has very solid edge support for a memory foam bed. You can sleep almost to the edge. With two people on a queen - edge support can be pretty important.

  4. I think a memory foam within a mattress is less likely to sleep hot or cold. I have noticed that the bed sleeps just a little warm - but it’s winter here, and clearly it isn’t an issue.

The bed is really great and I am very happy. Without question, unequivocally, I am falling asleep quicker, sleeping more soundly and feel a little more refreshed in the morning. It’s a great feeling at night to lay my weary bones to sleep.

I spent a lot of time researching mattresses and visiting local mattress stores. To the point where people started to question my sanity. But it was all worth it. You spend a a sh*tload of time on a mattress!

I hope this review helps someone out there! Good luck.

26

Hi NeedABedASAP14,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and feedback in such great detail … I appreciate it :slight_smile:

It’s great to see that your new mattress is working out so well for you!

Phoenix

27

I have finally got 30 days on my new LEBEDA bed. I purchased the individual 12 gauge spring with 1200 coil rate for a king with no assumed rate like some of the big companies. It had 6 in of Talalay latex on it wrapped in a bamboo cover.

Well for about a week it was a little harder than I liked but knew that the store model was perfect and that mine would take some time to loosen up. I didn’t sleep bad and could really tell the difference because every morning I woke up I had no pain my hand didn’t fall asleep or on and on. I felt great but it was still hard to fall asleep because it was a little firm, now understand it’s firmness is nothing compared to a memory foam posterpedic. But I was used to a lot softer but knew that was not the best for me. I liked an all foam bed as well before I bought the latex. It was softer but I feared it would fall apart down the road because of the different layers of different foams and latex.

So what I did was create my own bed!! I added a 2 inch less Dense cooling jell memory foam topper not real dense just one of those Sams club models. I layer that on top of my latex that was already covered added a sheet set on that and oh my goodness. It is absolute perfect,perfect,perfect! Down the rode after more breaking in a bit I may take it off than but we will see. This is a great bed and with box springs built so that you can drive a truck over it and custom 4 in because the matress is 20 in by itself cost me around 3000.00 tax and all of course.

28

Hi cuttinchief,

Thanks for the update I appreciate it.

I’m glad to see that things are working out so well for you … especially since you added the topper :slight_smile:

Phoenix

29

Absolutely perfect, I think I could just stay in bed all day.haha