Slumber Ease (aka Eastside Mattress Factory)

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
21

Hi Steve,

OK … that all makes perfect sense.

You have come so far though that while I wouldn’t buy another layer of latex for the purposes of testing (such as buying another layer of firm) … I think it would be valuable to start with the topper (even though it won’t fit exactly on your current size) and see how the layering underneath affected things before deciding on what to buy for a “permanent” latex core replacement. I think this would also ease your mind and it may be surprising (based on how the XFirm, Firm and innerspring felt so similar to you) that several combinations underneath may work and that the thicker wool topper may mean that the layers underneath aren’t quite so “critical” to get exactly right. There’s not a lot of difference for example between 31 and 35 although the difference in materials with Talalay vs Dunlop would make a bigger difference. This could give you a bit longer term experience with the wool and layers underneath which may help you notice differences that may not be as easy to discern with only more limited testing. This way you would have better odds of making a choice of latex that was closer to your “ideal”.

I am kind of excited that your mattress journey may be drawing to a close and that you will be able to “forget” what you are sleeping on … and just sleep :slight_smile:

I am also grateful for all your interactions with me both here and in the other forum because I am always asking “why” do people experience what they do on a mattress and the more difficult “challenges” keep increasing my own ongoing learning curve. In this case it was part of what led to more intensive research and more focused attention into wool as a “comfort layer” rather than just a quilting layer, protector, or mattress pad in a sleeping system and led to many questions and conversations with manufacturers to help understand the similarities and differences that it offered compared to other materials.

It was a “partial gap” in the information on the site compared to the more common mattress material choices and it’s particularly satisfying for me to be able to answer “whys” to the degree that it can help me “point to” better options for people in more difficult circumstances. Besides I had the chance to talk with some good people with some in depth knowledge about wool that were very willing to think about and provide some well thought out answers to my more detailed and sometimes technical questions :). Some of the questions I asked them about the more “technical” parts of wool toppers and how different construction methods and even types of topper can affect performance (such as the “performance difference” between fleece toppers and wool batting toppers) led to some very interesting and informative conversations.

So as your sleeping system “evolves” to include wool … I’d be particularly interested in your experiences on different layering of latex below it (even if it’s an approximation because the layers may be somewhat unknown or degraded). I also think that it could lead to a more nuanced or “accurate” final choice … or alternatively that this type of detail isn’t even necessary for you because they’re “all good”.

I thought you were already sleeping on the “uneven” M/M/M split with S/M/F which was the basis for the suggestion (it would just involve putting the wool topper on your current configuration) but whatever combination you are currently using it would give helpful information and feedback about your final latex core choice. If you are up to experimenting with a few layer changes (either 6" or 9") then this may also have some value but even just testing the wool on both sides of what you currently have and comparing it to what you tested would be helpful and may even be enough to give you the confidence about what final choice would be best.

So thanks again for all your great questions and comments along the way and I’m really looking forward to your “wool” reports and hopeful about the direction things are going.

Phoenix

22

I’m glad that you think this was useful for you too, since you put so much time into it; hate to think it was a waste for you!

May I respectfully disagree with one thing you said - you said “There’s not a lot of difference for example between 31 and 35” ILD latex. I know you didn’t mean this as a blanket statement, but I’m just now coming to realize how significant a 4 ILD difference can be. I knew that SleepEZ’s soft was in the 23 ILD range, and figured that just couldnt feel very different from 19. But while shopping yesterday I laid on a bed that was a 3" 19 ILD talalay over 6" of 32 ILD tatalay and that bed felt so much softer than mine, which is 23 over 32. So, at least to me, 19 ILD talalay is soft, and 23 ILD tatalaly isn’t. It makes me a little mad that I purchased from SleepEZ, since I don’t think anyone else calls 23 soft (obviously I could be wrong here, but I think the consensus is soft is less than 20). (I often wonder if I had bought from FloBeds if I would have been happier.) In fact, the bed with 19 over 32 felt too soft to me, and they had another bed next to it which was 19 over 36 and it felt better to me, and again thats only a difference of 4 ILD. So I would say those 4 ILD differences can be very important. Thats another reason your suggestion to just get the wool topper and try it with my latex makes sense.

At any rate, if I could bother you for a few more things: Do you think I should go with talalay or dunlop in the core under the wool? Since I can’t tell which is which I won’t be able to test this part. Also, do you have suggestions for where to buy the 6" core if I decide to do that online? And, do you think getting a slatted foundation is important, and if so do you have any suggestions for where to get that? Thanks again!

23

Hi Steve,

I agree with you and the statement I made was rather broad but had a different context than your example.

There is a noticeable difference between 19 ILD and 24 ILD (or 23 which is not an LI “rating”) even though the difference is relatively small. This is because it represents a larger percentage change. A 4 ILD difference in firmer latex would not represent as great a percentage change and would be more difficult to tell. I also meant that the ILD rating themselves are probably not accurate and all latex has a “range” of ILD across the surface. In a talalay layer … the actual ILD is an average that can vary in different places on the layer by as much as 4 ILD from the softest part to the firmest part and even the “average” ILD is rated to a “standard” it is closest to. In the case of Dunlop … the ILD variances across the surface are even larger than talalay and because of it’s higher sag factor even a lower ILD rated at 25% compression can feel firmer than a higher ILD Talalay where someone sinks into the layer more than 25%.

Dunlop ILD ratings are also often a “guess” and at best are only the midpoint of a range.

My main point though was that you may be surprised that it doesn’t make as much difference in a support layer with wool over it as you may think in the same way that you didn’t notice much difference in the Firm, Extra firm, and the Innersping with the Wool topper over them.

Actually Latex International themselves calls 24 ILD “soft” and anyone that rates their material differently is disagreeing with the actual manufacturer of the latex and creating confusion. The 19 is called “plush” and the 14 is called “super plush”. Some manufacturers use a “standard” top layer even firmer in the range of 28. In addition to this … ILD ratings in latex are different from ILD ratings in polyfoam because latex is “tested” with a 6" core while polyfoam is tested with a 4" core. This would mean that a latex ILD is actually softer than it would seem using a polyfoam ILD rating as a comparison and as you can see by the chart on this PFA page the difference in in the range of 20%. This means that 24 ILD latex tested on a 6" core would be similar to a 19 ILD in polyfoam tested on a 4" core.

Flobeds don’t include ILD information at all but I would imagine that since they use LI talalay that their firmness ratings would be the same as LI just like SleepEz. If it was different from their own supplier then they would be contributing to more ILD confusion which I doubt (but could be wrong). The middle and lower layers would be the same but of course their design concept uses a “standard” convoluted soft layer on top of all their mattresses which is the same for all their models and is closer to mattresses.net design which also used a standard “soft” layer on the top of their standard mattresses and changes the core below this to adjust firmness.

Each person will have a different sensitivity to the ILD differences they can feel and some of this is often because two different layers may not even match the ILD rating they are assigned or think they are testing. For example a 32 ILD LI Talalay may actually be 33.9 and a 36 ILD talalay may be 34.1. ILD is always best thought of as a “range” rather than an exact number and it is not nearly as exact as people seem to think either in “fact” or in the accuracy of people’s perceptions. Unfortunately there is no consistent meaning or standardization to the “soft, medium, firm” terms or their variants in either a particular material or between materials and I doubt that this is coming anytime soon.

All of this though is moot to the point I was making (or trying to make and poorly it seems) which was about finding out how much difference you could feel in the different core layers with wool on top.

Do you have any memory of which you prefer when you were testing them before? The Dunlop is more supportive and denser/firmer so would hold up weight better in an equivalent ILD. Talalay is more 'springy" and in an equivalent ILD would allow for a bit more sinking in. Did you have a preference between the two at Soaring Heart with the wool on top? I iwould go by either your preference of reel based on testing both or on which was more important to you … either “holding up the hips” (Dunlop) or “allowing the shoulders” (Talalay). This is assuming equivalent ILD’s of course because bvoth the holding up and the allowing can be adjusted by changing firmness levels in which case the feel of each would become the most important.

I don’t keep an ongoing record of pricing but I would look through the manufacturer members of the site listed in post #21 here for the latex core. Here in Seattle I would also call the local manufacturers to check their prices for a core you wanted. Post #4 here also includes some DIY sources and some of the polyfoam outlets also sell latex but I don’t have a list of their prices and in my experience they are not in the same price or value range and I doubt would be any better. Other than this … an online search would bring up more options (although mostly toppers rather than cores) and but again I doubt you will find better pricing/value than is listed on the manufacturer’s list for the site.

In terms of foundations … I personally prefer a slatted or grid type foundation for latex because like Soaring Heart I believe they ventilate better and reduce the risk of mold and mildew. There are many others who say that a solid platform foundation is also fine but I am in the “more ventilation is better” camp and perhaps more risk adverse.

There are quite a few posts scattered around the forum with foundation sources from very inexpensive to much more expensive and my thoughts about the different options. Some of the better ones with links to various choices include post #4 here … post #13 here … post #47 here … and post #2 here.

I hope I covered all of your comments and questions :slight_smile:

Phoenix

24

That makes sense. Altho the mattresses I tested the other day were both 19 ILD latex over “medium” latex - one was 32 ILD and one was 36 ILD - and I felt a noticeable difference there. Of course, the sales guy was in a hurry and maybe one was really more or less than he said? (This was at Seattle Mattress.)

Well as you said I didn’t seem to notice much difference, so I’m glad this makes some sort of sense. But I will know more when I get the topper and test it at home. (BTW, I ordered it, but its made “fresh” and so its a 2 week wait.)

Thats weird, I distinctly remember that SleepEz had firmer ILDs to go with their words. In my old notes I have this: “SleepEZ uses soft = 23 ILD, medium = 31 ILD, firm = 39 ILD, and extra firm = 44 ILD; FloBeds uses soft = 19, medium = 28, firm = 32, extra firm = 36, and super firm = 44 ILDs.” The odd numbers are because they quoted a range (ie medium = 30-32). At any rate, I guess the real lesson is try before you buy, and know exactly what is in the bed you like…

This is a good thing to focus on during testing, thanks…

More when I get the thing!

25

Hi Steve,

Actually you’re right. I saw the ILD specs for FloBeds here and they do rate the 19 ILD as soft and differently from LI.

Their 2" standard top layer on all their mattresses is also convoluted which means that the ILD compared to the ILD of the non convoluted layer prior to fabrication (convoluting) would depend on the shape and depth of the convolute pattern. They start with a 28 ILD layer and say it is “similar” to 14 ILD latex but this would be an approximation and I would think that the effective ILD would likely be a little more than that because the convolute doesn’t go all the way through the layer and there is a “base” that is not convoluted. This is one of the “good for some people and not so good for others” parts of the Flobeds because the top layer is standardized although the layers below this can be used to modify the effective thickness/softness of the comfort layer. Convolute would also be less durable than the equivalent ILD non convoluted layer (less material to absorb the weight and constant compression) but it has a higher effective compression modulus (softer with the initial compression of the convolute but firmer with deeper compression as it reaches the thicker part of the convolute and the non convoluted part of the layer).

In any case … I’m looking forward to more feedback!

Phoenix

26

Hi Phoenix
I took some pictures of my latex, which isn’t very old (4 years or so?) but has been handled a lot and left out in the open when stored. It looks a little funky to me, I just wondered what you think? Also, can you tell is this is Dunlop or Talalay?
Thanks
Steve

27

Hi Steve,

It can be hard to tell sometimes but based on an “educated guess” the middle picture looks more like talalay than the other two. It would also be helpful if you could take a picture of the side view of the layers which shows the pincores through the mattress.

While I can certainly see the “handling damage” … none of it looks to be so significant that it would affect the performance or feel.

What I can’t see though is any “crusting” or oxidizing on the layers (when latex oxidizes it gets “crusty”, discolored, and has harder “crumbles”) and this would be an indicator as well of the amount of damage that exposure to the air and other oxidizing factors have caused. For example if you look at the video here, they talk about the crusting (even though it’s not easy to see) or look at the comments and pictures in post #3 here, you can get a sense of what happens when latex ages. It probably says something that there are so few pictures of “aged latex” on the internet :).

Phoenix

28

OK, so I got the 4" wool topper from Soaring Heart and have slept on it a few nights now. Its on a 6" core of Sleepez medium latex, which is a bit softer than the core they had in the store (32 vs 36), although I’m not sure its enough to make much of a difference. Another difference is that the beds in the store had a bit more material - they were 6" of latex but the mattresses were 7". Mine is pretty much just the latex (with a thin quilted cotton cover). I arranged the latex so I think one side is talalay and the other is dunlop, although I don’t know which is which, and so far I have only slept on one side.

All that said, my impression so far is that its pretty comfortable. I’ve fallen asleep easily and slept well. I do sometimes seem to wake up with a numb hand, which is weird, but hasn’t happened enough yet that I’m sure thats a real thing. There is one thing that concerns me, and that is compression in the wool. I’ve attached a few pictures, taken the first morning. The topper easily fluffed back up, but as you can see I was definitely in a bit of a depression by morning. I talked to Soaring Heart and they say this is natural, and indeed its not uncomfortable. I’m just worried that it will become a problem. Thoughts?

29

Hi Steve,

So far so good … as long as the hand numbness goes away (assuming that it’s connected).

The initial compression of the wool is completely normal. It will go through some initial compression at first and then stabilize and this is part of how wool layers respond and adapt themselves to your body shape and sleeping style. It’s the same with some of the high end ultra premium mattresses which only use innersprings and natural fibers where the initial compression is a “good thing” instead of the type of impressions that come from foam which involve softening and foam breakdown. Because people nowadays “rightfully” connect impressions (which come from foam) as being “bad” … it’s easy to think that the same applies to natural fibers like wool when it doesn’t. To the degree that a well made product allows it … they are completely normal and even desirable.

Some of the manufacturers even suggest that you lay in various places on the mattress (from one edge to another) to even out the initial compression of the wool across the surface and once this has been done and the initial compression is “finished” then it will stay resilient with only very gradual further compression for a long time.

Phoenix