OK so I went to Mattress and More to check out the Restonic Latex mattresses again. As I concluded previously, the mattress with the 6" latex core is too soft. However -
I absolutely loved the other model. It felt perfect for me, but unfortunately, I as I found out by way of reading the mattress tag and asking the salesman - the mattress is 40% polyeurothane foam. Ugh! It has 2" of softer latex on top, 2" of medium latex under that, and another layer of restofoam (poly) under that. Then, it has a high density poly-foam core, with a high density poly-foam siding, which provides excellent edge support. I believe the Restonic system was called Solid-Edge or something like that. Anyway, he didnāt want to budge on the price, so I probably couldnāt get it for under $1800.
I also stopped at Bowles to try out the HD series, and I was quite disappointed. It was much to springy for me - with that coil gauge, I was literally bouncing on the bed, like it was a trampoline. Awful. I did, however, enjoy the Lady Americana Gold Series, especially the Gold Box Top. They were a few hundred dollars more. Let me know what you think of these:
The second Restonic is not an uncommon construction for a lower cost latex mattress with latex on the top and then firmer polyfoam for a support core. They can be good value but of course they should be less than an all latex mattress ā¦ not the same price. The problem with a lot of the Restonics is that different licensees in different parts of the country make them differently and when you use soft polyfoam in the comfort layers (like the restofoam) then this can be an issue and become the āweak linkā of the mattress. In most cases ā¦ the soft poly is over the latex rather than underneath it.
I have no idea what the edge support could be because I am only aware of an edge support system on their innerspring mattresses one of which is called superedge plus which is just high density firm polyfoam around the innerspring (described on their website). Of course it would also be possible to add firmer polyfoam around the edge of a polyfoam core as well. Do you know the model name?
Iām not surprised that you found the HD series too bouncy. They are built to accommodate heavier people who need much firmer support although anyone of course may like them and they are very good quality.
A microcoil is like a mini pocket coil used in the comfort layers of a mattress. An example is the Leggett & platt version here although they are also made buy several other manufacturers. They can be very comfortable and pressure relieving.
The Lady Americana both use them in combination with either a pocket coil or an offset coil (the firmer version). They have 1.5" of soft poly on top which is quilted and would IMO be ājust acceptableā in terms of polyfoam in a comfort layer. Of course the higher density this was the better it would be. I would certainly consider either of these if they met your needs and preferences and my choice (personal preference) being a side sleeper would also be the Gold box Top. They may work well for your shoulders. The extra few hundred would be reasonable to me given the more expensive āingredientsā.
Restonic also has a version (in some areas) which you can see here and Berkeley Ergonomics also makes one using swedish microcoils (and quite a few other manufacturers have their own versions as well). The microcoils are more durable than lower density polyfoam but are also very conforming.
Unfortunately, the price of the Gold Series Box-Top is $1688, which probably isnāt as good a value as I thought. How many years do you think we could get out of it?
Do you think itās a good value?
Other than the Snowmass over at Furniture Row, I canāt seem to find a good value in the Louisville area in an all-foam mattress or an innerspring mattress w/ latex. I just wanted to give my wife a few options instead of just saying, āAfter several weeks of research, hereās the one mattress that I came up with!ā
Also, there is a small store here in Louisville called Bandy Bedding that I havenāt checked out yet. Have you heard of them?
I would definitely put this is the āgood valueā range for a set yes. Itās certainly much better than anything you would find in a mass market outlet for anything of equivalent quality (3" of latex, a micro coil, a pocket coil, lumbar zoning, a channel quilt for the quilting, bamboo ticking, a ārealā box top, and a premium foundation). Of course your personal experience on this mattress is important but if it āfitsā then I would consider this to be a durable mattress (the microcoils are a very durable component and the only thing that in any way could be called a āweak linkā would be the 1.5" of polyfoam quilting which is not thick enough to cause any kind or worry in a quilted layer and would add to the āhand feelā of the mattress. While I hesitate to ever āattachā a specific number of years to any mattress/person combination because there are so many variables (because the person has as much to do with how long a mattress will last as the mattress itself) ā¦ this IMO would be a ādecade plusā mattress and probably longer. The microcoils have not been out long enough to know for sure but indications and testiing indicate it is as durable as latex which would put it in the ā15 yearā or longer range (with a wide range on either side based on the person using it).
I would choose this over the refresh re-align floor model discount price for example (based on the components not taking into account which may āfitā better for any person) and compared to their $1699 āregularā refresh re-align price there would be absolutely no doubt which I would choose.
Iām glad you asked this because thereās a bit of a story behind why I didnāt list them. they have been a King Koil licensee but in the last few months their website expired and disappeared. Like so many in the industry ā¦ this is usually an indication that they have been either a victim of the recession or the 1633 fire regulations which placed a very oberous burden on smaller manufacturers (which I believe was part of the reason for itās implementation). when you mentioned them I took the time to call to make sure they were gone and it turns out that they are still in business and they have also severed their relationship as a King Koil licensee so they could have more control over their own mattresses. I was given the number of the owner (John Bandy) so I could ask more about the mattresses they were making but havenāt had the chance to connect with him (left a message). So they certainly fit the profile of the kind of manufacturers I like and have been making mattresses for over 30 years, but their current temporary website http://www.wisebuyingmall.com/bandybedding has no information about their mattresses (they are working on a decent website).
So I would definitely pay a visit there yes and Iād love to know what you find there in case I donāt connect before you do. I apologize for missing them in my original list and Iām happy they seem to be another good local choice.
It looks to me like āLady Americanaā isnāt a Bowles mattress, but rather a nation-wide produced mattress. While the sticker does say $1688, do you think I could get them to come down on the price, since itās not really a factory direct mattress?
Also, check out this article on the Lady Americana lineā¦ does the Gold Series really have a lifetime warranty!?
It looks like even the Silver Series has a 25 year warranty! Are there any in that series that you would recommend? All of the mattresses in this series have the āCool Max Fabric quilted to 1 1/2" Foamā. It also looks like most of them have either 3" SuperSoft Poly Foam or an HD convoluted foam insert. I canāt imagine these mattresses holding up anywhere near as long as the Gold Series.
Lady Americana is a licensed brand which means the name is licensed and certain models (on their website) have a specific construction that is specified but the mattress is made locally. Spring Air is similar in that they license a manufacturer to use the name but the models can vary. In some cases ā¦ licensee groups have some latitude in what they use in the mattress (such as Restonic) so there isnāt a āstandardizedā group of models but only standard lines with different models that use different materials.
For example ā¦ Taylor bedding also makes Lady Americana but in their case they sell them to a store which in turn sells them to the consumer. You can see they make all the standard models on the Lady Americana site but also some additional models ā¦ all branded with Lady Americana.
As far as bargaining ā¦ local manufacturers as a group run on a much lower profit margin and tend to sell at their best price every day. Their whole sales model is different asnd they rely on education more than the āurgent enticementā of the fake sales that are so common in the industry as a whole. They have sales much more rarely, for more legitimate reasons, and with much smaller discounts. Because of this ā¦ they tend not to bargain nearly as much and many wonāt bargain at all because they already sell at the best price they are able to. There is some variance here so it never hurts to ask but itās not āstandard procedureā like it is in a more typical mattress store where the ānormā is to buy a mattress at 50% or less of the suggested price.
While the Lady americana site does say that the Gold has a lifetime warranty ā¦ the warranty page also says that the Lady Americana warranty is set by the factory that makes them. warranty page It also makes clear what the warranty covers and doesnāt including the fact that a warranty does not cover a mattress that wears out meaning a warranty has no relationship to how long a mattress will last. From the Lady Americana website (partial) ā¦
[b]DEFINITIONS
"Warranty": the manufacturerās assurance that certain standards will be met by the performance of the mattress and box spring for a specified period of time.
"Limited Warranty": this indicates that the warranty provided does not extend to every possible situation. There are situations that are excluded; therefore the warranty is "limited" rather than "unlimited". No mattress manufacturer offers an "unlimited" warranty, because there are so many situations outside of its control.
"Non-ProRated": if any problem occurs that is covered by the warranty during the term of the warranty, purchaser will not be charged for any repair made or, if necessary, any exchange of the mattress and/or box spring.
WHO IS THE WARRANTOR?
The warrantor is the Lady Americana factory that manufactured the mattress and/or box spring. Lady Americana Associates, Inc. (LAA), licenses independent mattress manufacturers to produce and market Lady Americana products. LAA does not determine any specific warranty for any Lady Americana product. In the event the factory that manufactured your warranted product ceases operations, this warranty ceases to exist. Only the factory determines which products will be warranted, and for what period.[/b]
The types of issues that warranties are meant to cover usually happen in the first few years of ownership. Lifetime warranties ā¦ and warranties in general ā¦ are more of a sales tool than they are consumer protection. They are part of what helps consumers loosen their wallet for mattresses that contain more foam or that ālookā nicer. They cover manufacturing defects only and this does not include foam softening or impressions less than the warranty exclusions so if a mattress softens to a point that it is no longer suitable for sleeping but the foam weakly comes back to less than the warranty exclusion with no weight on the mattress (which it usually will) ā¦ it is not a claimable warranty issue. In addition to this there are other exclusions that would make a lifetime warranty (or most warranties in general) almost never āactionableā for the reasons that most consumers think they are covered.
I went back to the Bowles store again yesterday, and I spent some time laying on the silver series mattresses as well. Most of these costed significantly less than the Gold Series I was looking at the other day. The silver series were in the range of $1100-$1200 I believe. Are there any in this series that you would recommend? I would think the silver series would last us maybe 12-15 years?
I know the Majesty and the Heiress each have a 3" Super Soft high-density foam pad, but it lays under the VLS (Visco Lumbar Support). What about the Imperial? It has a high density convoluted foam insert that is under the Visco Lumbar Support as well.
At these prices, I feel like I could go buy a Simmons and get the exact same pocketed coils and the same amount of poly foam.
Also, important to note that the āzonedā pocketed coils do seem to feel better on my shoulders than a firmer latex mattress like the Snowmass over at Denver. Do you think the microcoils in the box top are as good at pressure relieving as latex?
I would choose the silver series if it was an āapples to applesā comparison to a major brand but regardless of where it was made I personally would avoid 1.5 lb density polyfoam in a 3" layer unless it was in a lower priced mattress. I tend to be a little conservative in any durability comments because there are more variables than can possibly be predicted but I donāt believe the effective life would be in the 12-15 year range for most people (although that doesnāt mean that some people wouldnāt use it for that long) but closer to half that range.
Bowles uses 1.5 lb polyfoam in their super soft and their mattresses that contain polyfoam use this or a higher density 1.8 lb polyfoam (in their convoluted for example). Most major brands like Simmons would use a combination of 1.2 and 1.5 lb foam (and sometimes even less). Construction methods are also typically better at smaller manufacturers as well which can also add to durability. Polyfoam of this density is nowhere near the durability of latex though and is also a much less expensive material (meaning a less expensive mattress).
Unless someone is in a lower budget range ā¦ I would avoid lower density polyfoam in layers this thick as a general rule (bearing in mind that the density of polyfoam is a major part of durability but where it is in the mattress and what is over and under it and construction methods also play a role). Minimal use of foams of this density is a much better approach IMO even though the value of the Silver series would be better vs a mainstream mattress. I personally wouldnāt be looking at any of the silver series.
the Imperial has the 1.8 lb convoluted and would have a different feel (convoluted is softer in the convoluted part but firmer in the non convoluted part so it would get firmer faster but would also have less material so would be less durable than a non convoluted equivalent foam). This would mean a different feel with similar durability IMO.
This doesnāt surprise me with your build as we talked about earlier. I havenāt seen any objective comparisons between the pocket coils and materials like latex or memory foam but in theory, I think the microcoils would have similar pressure relieving abilities (it wouldnāt be quite as āpoint elasticā as softer latex or memory foam) and better than polyfoam. They would also be more durable than lower density polyfoam. In actual practice ā¦ the only way to know for certain would be the experience of the person lying on the mattress because the thickness and construction of the microcoil and the layers over and under it would have a major effect on the pressure relieving properties of the mattress. Like with all layering ā¦ the thickness and quality and relative softness/firmness of the layering has as much to do with pressure relief (and support) as the actual material itself. Enough pressure relief is also relative though because once you are below the personal threshold of what you need and prefer ā¦ then more than this becomes somewhat of a moot point. In other words ā¦ if a 3" comfort layer of a particular material provides good pressure relief ā¦ then using 5" of the same materials would tend to compromise support. Microcoils in some variation would certainly provide āenoughā pressure relief for most people and I personally also like the feel of them in combination with a layer of latex over them although that is a matter of personal preference that others may not share.
Just as a reference ā¦ this mattress at Denver uses 1.8 lb polyfoam (like most of their mattresses) and has a zoned innerspring (not pocket coil).
This one includes 1.8 lb polyfoam with 2" of latex over pocket coils (although I donāt believe theyāre zoned)
Phoenix
PS: I have left 2 messages for John Bandy but havenāt had a chance to talk with him yet. In a general conversation with their store ā¦ they told me that they carry innersprin/polyfoam mattresses, memory foam mattresses (using 5 lb foam) and some type of latex mattress ā¦ but she said I would need to talk with John to find out the layering details and whether the latex was just a āthinner layer in the mixā and the details of any polyfoam above or below.
It may be worth testing their mattresses to see if any provide the pressure relief and support you like and then wait till either of us has had a chance to find out if the materials seem to be good value.
I stopped in at Bandy Bedding on my way home from work yesterday, and I spoke with the very nice gentleman who was working at the store. He told me up-front that their business caters to people on a budget. Most of their models fall between $250-$800. They had only one pocketed-coil mattress in the store, and it had been discontinued. They sell 99% basic innerspring mattresses, with no bells and whistles. They sell a couple of Memory Foam knock-offs, and they had two mattresses with latex. One was an innerspring mattress with a little bit of latex on top - it was quite bouncy. The other was an innerspring mattress that had a layer of memory foam under a layer of latex - best mattress in the store - $899 I believe was the price.
They also offered a more luxurious-looking line of mattresses that had a āfleeceā type cover on top. Very interesting - but I canāt help but think that it would sleep warm. (again, innerspring only)
We couldnāt get any information on the layers or quantity/quality of polyfoam being used in combination. I even checked around for mattress tags, and I couldnāt find a single mattress tag on any of the mattresses. (weird)
Anyway - very nice salesman, but the store didnāt have anything to offer in the way of high-end mattresses. And with absolutely no way of knowing what materials are being used, itās hard to estimate the overall value of their products.
Lastly, Iāve been trying to find some more information on the durability of microspring box tops. I went online to try to find some reviews or comparisons, and Iām not having much luck. It did find one mattress with a microcoil, though:
Gallery Grand Residence Micro Coil Pillowtop Therapedic Mattress:
Queen size with boxspring, $1328 - but I donāt think it has pocketed coils or any latex in the layers.
Are there any others we can compare with the Lady Americana Gold Box Top? Any reviews anywhere?
There are a few microcoil mattresses that have some reviews that I know of. Parklane mattress (one of the members of the site) has several here and here and here that include some reviews on the site.
Berkeley Ergonomics also has a couple which use Swedish microcoils ā¦ the Nordic and the Nordic 11 that have some yelp reviews as well (although they are more about the outlet).
Youāre also right that the Therapedic Grand Residence doesnāt have latex in the mix. Lebeda makes one here but I donāt know the price and Restonic in Everton makes one here as well but I also donāt know the price of this one in a retail outlet.
Some other examples of manufacturers that use microcoils, innersprings, and latex includes Beloit Mattress (also one of the member here) and Select Sleep.
Results of some of the testing that Leggett and Platt has done on the microcoils compared to other materials is here.
Of course thereās lots more but this should give you an idea of their relative benefits (breathability, durability, and cost compared to many other top layer materials).
thanks for your review on Bandy in Louisville. Itās rare to see a review that is so concise and accurate and I certainly appreciate it.
I had a chance today to talk with the owner John (Maryās son) at Bandy and there is a fair bit more I can now add as well.
They parted ways with King Koil mainly because they wanted to move towards a more factory direct model where they could have more control over the design and range of mattresses they made even though this would involve becoming smaller and less āmass producedā. John didnāt believe that they were doing as well as they could and this was a pathway to becoming better.
We also talked a lot about their mattresses and how they build them and I was quite impressed here as well. They make everything from the very lowest end (which of course uses lower quality polyfoam) all the way up to an all latex (talalay) mattress and everything in between. Except for the ābargain basementā models at the very lowest price ā¦ they donāt use anything less than 1.6 lb polyfoam in their mattresses and higher. They also make a wide range of memory foam options using mid and high density memory foam (he completely agrees about the use of 3.5 lb memory foam and the durability issues it can have).
Their Louisville store is not the ānormā for them. There is 4 months left on the lease there and it was an outlet store that was meant to carry their lower priced models because of the market conditions in Louisville and the area of the store. Their other outlets carry their full range of their mattresses. They are hoping to move the Louisville premises to a new and more āupscaleā location and then carry the full range of mattresses there.
We talked for well over an hour and I have to say I was truly impressed with his focus on using the best quality materials he possibly could in every budget range and even in the context of independent manufacturers ā¦ he was amazingly open about what they do, where they want to improve, and where they plan to go (almost all factory direct in the next year or so). Not surprisingly ā¦ he was also very knowledgeable about different foams and their strengths and weaknesses. Interestingly enough ā¦ one of his biggest concerns with latex besides the price and the knowledge needed to make and sell it was the working conditions of the people who gather the latex in some areas of the world. I found this quite insightful as to his character and ethics. We were very much in alignment in our thoughts and opinions about mattresses and the industry in general.
Overall ā¦ Iām very happy that this thread gave me the chance to talk with him. He certainly fits the profile IMO of the better factory direct manufacturers and I believe that their quality and value would make them well worth including in any mattress research if they are within reasonable driving distance ā¦ especially in their ācomplete lineupā outlets which carry their full range of mattresses.
So, after Church and lunch today, I took my wife and 3-yr-old over to Bowles. My wife was really happy with both the Gold Series Box Top and the Gold Series Euro Style. Due to their comfort layer construction, they both feel quite similar for us - maybe itās because of our low weights (129 and 158). I guess if you think about it, both mattresses have the same top 3 layers (1-1/2" of quilted foam, 1" Talalay Latex, 2-1/2" Micro Coil).
I guess the only thing that concerns me is the 1" Firm Foam under the MicroCoil on the Euro Style. He said itās high-density (over 1.8 lbs, at least). The Euro Style costs $1488 compared to the $1688 Box Top.
Both feel great on my shoulders - I think the MicroCoil is good fit for me - and my wife likes the edge support of an HD foam-sided mattress. She didnāt like the all-foam latex/poly mattresses we tried.
So what do you think. Will the Euro hold up as well as the Box Top for us?
Both of you are lighter weight so the differences in the construction of these two mattresses which are more in the deeper layers of the mattress may not be as noticeable to you.
In the Box top ā¦ the layers under the microcoil are 2" of latex and then a pocket coil innerspring (which is more conforming and probably a little softer). The separate box top would also tend to make the top layers a little softer because it is built as a separate section on the top of the mattress.
In the Euro style, there is 1" of HD polyfoam and then a Luraflex (offset) innerspring which would likely be a little more supportive and a little less conforming.
While polyfoam is not as durable as latex ā¦ the 1" under the microcoil is deeper in the mattress (not as subject to mechanical compression as it would be on the top) and also a high enough density and thin enough that durability would not be an issue IMO. I āworryā more when there are thicker layers and lower density in the top layers of a mattress.
The foam under the microcoils in both mattresses are used as an insulator layer between the comfort layers and the innerspring.
So overall ā¦ if there is little difference for both of you and pressure relief and alignment is good on both ā¦ then it would make sense to me to go with the lower price in a choice between the two of them.
Spent some more time laying on the Gold Series Box Top and Euro-Style today after work. Iām torn, but Iām starting to like the Box Top a little more. āI thinkā I can can feel the contouring of the Box Top distributing pressure to the rest of my body better than the Euro-Style. But itās hard to notice in the store. I spent about 15 minutes on each mattress, and I was just barely able to notice a difference.
Also, I took my hand and pushed down firmly on both mattresses. On the Euro-Style, I can hear springs making a somewhat audible noise. But on the Box Top, it felt and sounded like 100% foam. Does this mean anything? Maybe itās just the difference in the pocketed coils vs the offset coil. Or maybe itās the extra inch of foam in the layer under the micro-coil.
Anyway, Iām still deciding - but ready to buy one or the other!
This would likely be a combination of the thicker more flexible and elastic latex underneath the microcoils and also the fact that the offset coils are joined together with helicals on the top and bottom (see the small spiral ājoiningā coils in the luraflex link in the last post) while the pocket coils act more independently (with no steel rubbing on steel) and are joined together by their individual fabric pockets. If you were to ābounceā a bit on both or sort of āflopā around on each you would probably notice the difference between them more.
Iāve decided to go with the Gold Series Box Top, and I think Iāll go ahead and get it ordered tomorrow. It just feels a bit more conforming to my body when I lay on it at the store. The only worry I have would be that it could be too soft, and maybe not provide enough support?! I wouldnāt know for sure until I slept on it for an entire night. Maybe you can put my mind at ease on this issue.
Iāll probably also get online and order the St. Dormeir Mattress Protector as well. It seems to be the overwhelming favorite mattress protector by everyone on the web. I just hope itās not too thick.
I also want to order a new set of sheets to make my bed feel like new! What would be considered some of the best quality, breathable bed sheets? Bamboo? Egyptian Cotton? And who should I order from?
Thatās very difficult for me to say because of course ātheory at a distanceā can never be as accurate as actual testing and knowing specs can only go so far in āpredictingā how well a mattress may work for any individual.
I can say though that more conforming can also be more supportive and that while you may be a little deeper in the box top mattress overall, the extra latex will adjust well to any heavier parts because it gets firmer faster than other foams so it can be both more conforming and supportive. Being able to sink in a little deeper with your more āpointyā parts can also result in the gaps in your profile being filled in with a little more firmness which also helps to support them better as well (such as the small of the back).
If you tested the mattress carefully while you are very relaxed and your muscles had ālet goā and you were in good alignment and didnāt feel any tension or pain in your back or a tendency to hold up parts of your body ā¦ then the odds are very good that it will work well for you.
To re-assure yourself though ā¦ itās always a good idea to ask what their adjustment policy is if it turns out that even the best of testing doesnāt quite get it right. While this is not likely ā¦ itās always good to know for peace of mind.
The Dormeir is without a doubt one of the best choices in mattress protectors available. It is quite thin and stretchy so it has a very good combination of breathability, water resistance, and doesnāt affect the feel of the mattress as much as many other alternatives ā¦ particularly wool ones.
Most of the research for the site goes into mattress materials and sources so I donāt have a list of the best buying sources for sheets or bedding as itās not my area of expertise. There are some very good sources of information about different types of sheets and what to watch out for. This can also be more complex than many would think because misleading or inaccurate labeling is also very common in bedding.
The HD series mentioned in this thread uses the coil that was the standard coil for many years for Stearns and Fosterā¦the 368 Double Offset coil. 368 12.5ā¦is a monster coilā¦ They have since gone to a coil that sounds betterā¦I canāt remember exactlyā¦512 or something, buit the gauge is nothing like 12.5.
Unfortunately the S&F beds have taken a quality beating in the last decade or soā¦too badā¦they used to be great bedsā¦
So I went ahead and ordered the Lady Americana Gold Series Box Top! $1688 plus tax/delivery. I got with Sandra over at Cuddledown.com and we discusses mattress protectors and bed sheets. Since the mattress is so deep, (16" including the quiliting), we decided that the 24" pocket on the St. Dormeir was the way to go - so I placed an order for it on Monday.
As for the sheets, I donāt think Sandra was able to come up with anything that would be deep enough to fit the mattress. Most of the pockets are 17", which is just not going to be enough. Iāve been trying to find some really good quality sheets at some of the stores here in Louisville, and Iām simply not having much luck. I tried Bed Bath & Beyond, Target, JC Penneys, Kohls, etcā¦
And then I went to Macyās. I love their Hotel Collection. I picked up the 600 threadcount egyptian cotton flat sheet and pillowcases, and I had to special order the extra-deep fitted sheet for the new mattress. These received the best reviews anywhere online, and Iām looking forward to trying them myself. They also sell an 800 threadcount, but they cost significantly more, and feel about the same.
Anyway, once everything arrives, Iām looking forward to some bedtime bliss. Thanks again for everyoneās input!
They have since gone to a coil that sounds betterā¦I canāt remember exactlyā¦512 or something, buit the gauge is nothing like 12.5.