Spindle Abscond, Arizona Mattress Adjustable Ultra Plush or DIY

I genuinely appreciate the mountain of information on this site. I have learned a lot about various mattress options and am close to being ready to purchase a new one, but I still have a few questions.

Based on my research concerning comfort, support, and durability, I’ve narrowed my purchase decision to a latex mattress. Within the latex options, I’m not sure which direction I should go. I would appreciate any specific advice that could be offered to help me make a final choice.

Option 1: Spindle Abscond: 3 x 3" of continuous pour natural dunlop + 1" wool and cotton cover. $1282 after coupon + free shipping for Queen size.

It is my understanding that the Mountain Top natural latex continuous pour process is not exactly the same as the traditional 100% natural dunlop process. As a result, their method offers a greater variance of ILD options, including softer ILDs, and also provides more consistency within the latex overall. If true, do you believe the Mountain Top process is a new and improved method for dunlop, especially for those customers who want more consistency within the latex and/or a softer matress?

I like the idea of having 3 separate latex layers because of the adjustments that can be made to find the right fit. In addition, Spindle also offers a 365 day comfort exchange for a flat $150. It appears that one is not required to send back any of the three layers of the original purchase which would allow even more comfort options moving forward. I would originally select the medium firmness but would like the option of adding a soft latex layer of natural dunlop if I see the need, especially if the continuous pour process actually makes a difference in the soft layer compared to other dunlop options.

I noticed that Spindle previously offered a synthetic dunlop option. The owner of Spindle said he thought so much of the synthetic option that he sleeps on one himself but dropped synthetic dunlop because of marketplace demand. His opinion of synthetic dunlop struck me as interesting considering the general view I keep reading is that natural dunlop is far superior to synthetic.

Is natural dunlop really that superior or is much of the consensus more about marketing and theoretical differences compared to actual real life experiences? I don’t mind paying more for an improved product that will be more comfortable, supportive and longer lasting, but I don’t like the idea of paying an extra $500 just so I can say I bought a natural product if it isn’t actually an improvement I will actually notice over time. I could always pick the Ultimate Dreams Freedom for much less than the Abscond, though I don’t want to buy an admittedly inferior product just to save a little money. Quality counts assuming it isn’t mostly marketing speak.

Option 2: Arizona Mattress Adjustable Ultra Plush Latex Sleep System (Blended): 1 6" layer in halves + 2" or 3" topper + 1.5 inches wool and cotton cover. $1135 + shipping for 2" topper after coupon or $1216 + shipping for 3" topper after coupon.

I might choose a Talalay mattress over a pure dunlop all other things being equal (especially for the top layer) because of the comfort properties of Talalay compared to dunlop (though the continuous pour process of Mountain Top appears to lessen the differences between Talalay and natural dunlop for lower ILDs).

My primary concern with the Adjustable Ultra Plush is that it comes in two core halves (their ultra plush full layers are not available to ship outside of Arizona). What difference would this make for a single person compared to a latex bed not divided in half? I understand how two sleepers might prefer the ability to have two different firmness levels based on personal preference, but would a single person notice a difference sleeping in the middle of the mattress between two halves?

3 3" layers (the Abscond) provides more adjustable firmness options over a 6" layer + a topper (Arizona Adjustable). I’m not sure if it matters if I can get the firmness I want right to start, but if it’s not the way I want it, the 3 layers would probably make it easier for me to get the exact firmness I want. Arizona offers what appears to be a 60 day layer exchange for the cost of shipping both ways. The Abscond seems to offer a better deal because one gets to keep the original layers and the extra layer for a flat $150 extra. Someone correct me if I’m wrong with the policy of either manufacturer.

If the talalay latex is the best option for me (I like the idea of the talalay softness although I do also want strong support) and the fact the mattress is split into two isn’t noticeable for a single sleeper, and I can get the firmness equation mostly right from the beginning, and it isn’t better just to go with a DIY route, the Arizona Adjustable appears to offer the best internet price for a talalay bleneded queen-sized mattress with 9" of talalay. The Abscond is a little less (-$60) due to shipping costs and offers a less expensive and more valuable comfort adjustment option.

My general question is whether most consumers actually prefer Talalay over natural dunlop over the long run and is it worth it to most consumers to pay just a little more. If the reported improvements with the Mountain Top continuous pour dunlop process bring the dunlop closer to the talalay in real world performance (especially at the medium firmness levels), then the Abscond may be a better value proposition.

Option 3: DIY

What about simply buying three 3" layers of the exact same size of latex (with various preferred firmness levels) from an internet dealer and then buy a similar wool/cotton cover to the ones offered on the Abscond and the Arizona adjustable?

For example, Flexus Comfort offers natural Talalay toppers (22-24 soft or 28 medium) without covers for $335 each with free shipping. If I can buy a similar cover to the ones offered by Arizona and Abscond for approximately $300, other than comfort exchange policies, how would that be any different than purchasing a latex mattress such as the Abscond or the Arizona Adjustable Plus? The cost would be roughly the same and I would have to put together each of these mattresses just the same.

It is my understanding that natural talalay may not be as durable over it’s life as blended talalay for softer ILDs (though it typically costs more than blended talalay regardless), but would I actually notice any real world difference with 2 28 ILDs and 1 22-24 comfort layer compared to a blended talalay with similar ILDs?

There are also a variety of blended talalay topper options from other manufacturers, although the Flexus pricing for natural Talalay appears to be comparatively low. For example, Arizona offers 3" 28 ILD blended talalay toppers for $318 + shipping. Brooklyn Bedding offers blended talalay with covers for $374 with a $50 shipping 30 day exchange policy per layer.


I understand I will ultimately have to make my own choice on which solution is best for me and I imagine all of these choices would prove to be good ones, but I’m not an expert and any further information that could be provided would be helpful in my final decision.

I would pick the Abscond if I was fairly sure their continuous top Mountain Top dunlop latex would be just as comfortable as the Talalay options and that the $150 comfort adjustment would prove to be a nice value-added bonus.

I would pick the Arizona Adjustable Plush option if I was fairly sure the two halves would not be noticed if sleeping in the middle of the mattress and that I can narrow down the comfort on my first try without looking at the real possibility of having to pay shipping both ways for a comfort adjustment.

I would pick the DIY route through Flexus if natural talalay is in practical terms as close to durable as blended talalay for 22-24 ILD and 28 ILD talalay latex and the final result after buying a quality cover is basically the same as buying a complete mattress with 9" of latex.

Thanks for any help that can be provided in helping me choose one of these latex sleeping options. I genuinely appreciate it!

Hi PLH123,

It’s not possible to provide specific advice because there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved in which mattress or material or mattress design would be “best” for you and this can be very different for different people.

There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and there is also more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that can help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses but the most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase is always how well it “matches” your specific needs and preferences and the only way to know this is based on your own personal testing or sleeping experience.

All methods of latex manufacturing have improved over the years and are more consistent than they used to be so while it’s a “newer” method of producing Dunlop latex and it’s also more commonly available in softer versions than molded Dunlop and will often be more consistent as well (although you will sometimes see molded Dunlop in densities in the 65 kg/m3 range which is also quite soft) … none of this translates into being “better” unless there is an actual difference between two materials that you can feel or prefer in “real life” and these types of comparisons are often more of a “theoretical exercise” that often isn’t as important as most people may believe it is when they are doing their initial research. Like most other Dunlop it will also tend to have a softer and a firmer side and have the “feel” of Dunlop latex. If you tend to prefer Dunlop latex over Talalay latex then I think that the other factors that would be involved in deciding which mattress would be “best” for you would probably be more important than whether it was made using a continuous pour or a molded Dunlop process. Both can make very suitable and durable mattresses either by themselves or in combination with other types and blends of latex. I personally would treat the choice between different types and blends of latex as a preference and/or a budget choice not a “better/worse” choice which isn’t really the case in most people’s “real life” experience.

The ability to rearrange or exchange layers (or purchase a new layer at a very reduced cost in the case of Spindle) is certainly one of the advantages of a component latex mattress but each manufacturer will have differences in their exchange or return policies and some of them would be more attractive to some people and some will be more attractive to others so which one is “best” depends on each person’s criteria and their confidence that one of the configurations that are available will be suitable for them. There is more about the different ways to choose a mattress (either locally or online) that is the most suitable “match” for your specific needs and preferences and how to identify and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for that are involved in each of them in post #2 here.

This would depend entirely on how you defined “superior”. It has been Oeko-Tex tested for harmful substances and VOC’s using the same testing protocols as 100% natural Dunlop so it’s certainly safe and it would be in a similar range in terms of durability to other types and blends of latex (all latex is a durable material relative to other types of foam materials). You can read more about synthetic continuous pour Dunlop latex in post #2 here and there is more about natural rubber and synthetic rubber in post #2 here but once again it will come down to a preference and budget choice and whether a mattress that uses any type or blend of latex will be a good match for you in terms of PPP and the options you have available if it isn’t. There are many people that prefer natural or even organic latex for “personal” reasons that believe it’s “better” but if you ask them why it’s better their answers will often be based on opinions that don’t have real evidence to support them.

You can read more about Dunlop (of either type) vs Talalay latex in post #7 here but the most reliable way to know which type of latex you tend to prefer will be based on your own testing or personal experience.

If a mattress has split layers that have the same firmness on each side and with a comfort layer on top of it and a quilted cover you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a split layer or a solid layer of the same firmness.

You are correct on all counts as far as I know and the only other difference is that Arizona Premium also has a return/refund policy.

Again these are preference choices. I personally prefer the “feel” of Talalay for example while my daughter much prefers the feel of Dunlop which is what she purchased (she tested both). When it comes to these types of choices where there isn’t a better or a worse then your own preferences will always be more important than the preferences of others. In the past there were probably more people that preferred the “feel” of Talalay comfort layers than Dunlop but with softer Dunlop being more commonly available I would guess that the percentages are more even than they were in the past.

If you are attracted to the idea of designing and building your own mattress out of separate components and a separate cover then the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. While it can certainly be a rewarding project … the best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).

If you decide to take on the challenge then I would either use the specs (if they are available) of a mattress that you have tested and confirmed are a good match for you in terms of PPP as a reference point (the same type and blend of latex in the same thickness and firmness levels and a very similar cover which can also make a significant difference to the feel and performance of a mattress) or use a “bottom up” approach (see post #2 here).

I would always keep in mind that the only way to know for certain whether any mattress, material, or design will work well for you will be based on your own personal testing or sleeping experience. You are certainly looking at some good options but nobody else can tell you which one would be “best” for you because it will always depend on your risk tolerance, your preferences, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

When you are down to finalists that are all choices between “good and good” and none of them have any weak links or lower quality materials in their design and if there are no clear winners between them then you are in the fortunate position that any of them would likely be a suitable choice and post #2 here can help you make a final choice based on your local testing, your conversations with each of them, your confidence about the suitability of each one, the prices, the exchange or return options you have after a purchase, any additional extras that are part of each purchase, and on “informed best judgement” based on all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix

I bought mattress from spindle 10 abscond queen and I love it it’s good quality organic cover I got medium.
They suggest 2 people put together the layers but I did by my self was easy.

Thanks for your input Phoenix!

[quote=“Phoenix” post=49875]

It’s not possible to provide specific advice because there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved in which mattress or material or mattress design would be “best” for you and this can be very different for different people.

There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and there is also more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that can help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses but the most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase is always how well it “matches” your specific needs and preferences and the only way to know this is based on your own personal testing or sleeping experience. [/quote]

I respect your point of view and understand that the “right” mattress choice must ultimately be a personal one.

The bigger question then is whether one personally prefers Dunlop or Talalay because the finished product of either natural mold or natural continuous pour Dunlop is relatively similar in real world results in contrast to Talalay even if there are differences between the different Dunlop production methods.

[quote]

The ability to rearrange or exchange layers (or purchase a new layer at a very reduced cost in the case of Spindle) is certainly one of the advantages of a component latex mattress but each manufacturer will have differences in their exchange or return policies and some of them would be more attractive to some people and some will be more attractive to others so which one is “best” depends on each person’s criteria and their confidence that one of the configurations that are available will be suitable for them. There is more about the different ways to choose a mattress (either locally or online) that is the most suitable “match” for your specific needs and preferences and how to identify and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for that are involved in each of them in post #2 here. [/quote]

I’m comfortable with making an online purchase for a quality latex mattress over paying higher prices locally, but it does make sense to possibly try to limit the risk of buying from an out-of-state seller by finding an exchange/return policy that is best suited for me if I"m not certain I will select the right firmness level when making the initial order.

[quote]

This would depend entirely on how you defined “superior”. It has been Oeko-Tex tested for harmful substances and VOC’s using the same testing protocols as 100% natural Dunlop so it’s certainly safe and it would be in a similar range in terms of durability to other types and blends of latex (all latex is a durable material relative to other types of foam materials). You can read more about synthetic continuous pour Dunlop latex in post #2 here and there is more about natural rubber and synthetic rubber in post #2 here but once again it will come down to a preference and budget choice and whether a mattress that uses any type or blend of latex will be a good match for you in terms of PPP and the options you have available if it isn’t. There are many people that prefer natural or even organic latex for “personal” reasons that believe it’s “better” but if you ask them why it’s better their answers will often be based on opinions that don’t have real evidence to support them. [/quote]

I’m not sure I got a clear answer on real world performance differences between synthetic and natural Dunlop; however, my take away is that Natural Dunlop offers possible performance improvements now and over the lifetime of the mattress, but it is difficult to quantify based on differences between how individuals actually sleep on various mattresses combined with personal subjective and objective preferences. In addition, the value equation on how much to spend on perceived and actual improvements of natural over synthetic vary based on the individual.

Personally, I just want a high quality mattress that provides support, is quite comfortable to sleep on each night, and will hopefully last as long as a decade if possible. I’m under the impression that Natural Dunlop or a Talalay blend is more likely to meet these personal requirements than synthetic Dunlop. But I still don’t know if I am being influenced by theory and marketing over actual real world performance.

[quote]

If a mattress has split layers that have the same firmness on each side and with a comfort layer on top of it and a quilted cover you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a split layer or a solid layer of the same firmness. [/quote]

Thank you for this information. I was ready to rule out Arizona’s Talalay option only because of that reason.

[quote]

Again these are preference choices. I personally prefer the “feel” of Talalay for example while my daughter much prefers the feel of Dunlop which is what she purchased (she tested both). When it comes to these types of choices where there isn’t a better or a worse then your own preferences will always be more important than the preferences of others. In the past there were probably more people that preferred the “feel” of Talalay comfort layers than Dunlop but with softer Dunlop being more commonly available I would guess that the percentages are more even than they were in the past. [/quote]

I suspected more consumers likely preferred a Talalay comfort layer over Dunlop, though it makes sense that the softer Dunlop choices have bridged the gap.

[quote]

If you are attracted to the idea of designing and building your own mattress out of separate components and a separate cover then the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. While it can certainly be a rewarding project … the best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).

If you decide to take on the challenge then I would either use the specs (if they are available) of a mattress that you have tested and confirmed are a good match for you in terms of PPP as a reference point (the same type and blend of latex in the same thickness and firmness levels and a very similar cover which can also make a significant difference to the feel and performance of a mattress) or use a “bottom up” approach (see post #2 here). [/quote]

The DIY option is likely more of a risk to attain the right firmness level on the first try, but I don’t see how complicated it would actually be to build one based on your advice: choose 3 3" layers with the desired firmness levels and then find a high quality cover. Again, the risk is knowing what the right firmness levels actually are and the exchange/return costs if they aren’t.

[quote]

I would always keep in mind that the only way to know for certain whether any mattress, material, or design will work well for you will be based on your own personal testing or sleeping experience. You are certainly looking at some good options but nobody else can tell you which one would be “best” for you because it will always depend on your risk tolerance, your preferences, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

When you are down to finalists that are all choices between “good and good” and none of them have any weak links or lower quality materials in their design and if there are no clear winners between them then you are in the fortunate position that any of them would likely be a suitable choice and post #2 here can help you make a final choice based on your local testing, your conversations with each of them, your confidence about the suitability of each one, the prices, the exchange or return options you have after a purchase, any additional extras that are part of each purchase, and on “informed best judgement” based on all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix[/quote]

Thanks for your input. Again, I genuinely appreciate it!

Thanks for the feedback on your mattress purchase. I am tempted to purchase the Abscond because of the flexibility of its 3 3 inch Dunlop layers and the ability to add another layer for even more firmness choices for a flat $150. One should be able to find a comfortable firmness choice arranging the various layers or by adding another one. I would also choose medium. If I choose Dunlop, I will pick Spindle.

Hi PLH123,

Yes … 100% natural Dunlop will be much more similar than different regardless of whether it is made with the continuous pour process or in a mold so the bigger issue IMO would be whether someone prefers Talalay vs Dunlop.

I would agree with this as well. If you have tested different types and firmness levels of latex mattresses and you know you like the overall feel of latex then with good options after a purchase to rearrange or exchange a layer the odds are high (although not certain) that you would find a layering arrangement that would work well for you. This would especially be true if you have tested a mattress that is very similar to a mattress you are considering online. If you aren’t certain that you like latex then a good return policy would also be more important.

Natural rubber is denser and heavier than synthetic rubber and has a higher compression modulus which means that it gets firmer faster as you sink into the layer more deeply and is more “supportive” under the heavier parts of the body. It’s also more resilient and elastic so it has more of the properties that latex is known for and that many people prefer. It is also a renewable resource because natural rubber comes from a tree so this is also attractive to many people. Because of its more supportive properties natural latex may be a better choice for those that are in much higher weight ranges. They would both be comparable in terms of durability (outside of the fact that softer materials of any type will generally be less durable than firmer materials of the same type). Having said all that … some people may prefer the less resilient “feel” or like how they sink in a little more deeply into synthetic latex in the same firmness level (just like some people prefer the feel or properties of polyfoam or memory foam or other materials more than latex). Both are good quality and durable choices.

If a latex mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP then it would be very reasonable to expect that you will continue to sleep well on it for at least a decade and in many cases even longer (or even substantially longer) regardless of which type of latex is in your mattress.

If you are using a mattress as a blueprint that you know works well for you and there is little chance that you would need to exchange layers and you also use a cover that is very similar to your blueprint then there would be little risk involved but if your sleeping experience indicates that the layers you choose aren’t as good a match as you hoped for then once again a good exchange or return policy would be the most effective way to lower the risk. Many mattress manufacturers subsidize the exchange or return process so a component mattress can end up being less costly than a DIY mattress if you need to exchange or return layers or if you order a layer that you can’t use which can’t be returned at all. If you don’t end up with a right combination of layers on the first or second try (after your first layer exchange) that allows for a configuration that works well then for those that are more difficult to “fit” the process of continuously trying different combinations can become more complex and frustrating than enjoyable.

In other words … it’s a risk vs benefit choice.

Phoenix

Thanks again Phoenix for your time and energy. It is helping me get a clearer focus of what I want. Your knowledge is much appreciated.

I am seriously considering the DIY Talalay blend route with 3 3" layers. I would like to achieve a medium firmness to start.

Option 1:

Bottom Support layer: 3 inches of 36 ILD Talalay latex.
2nd layer: 3 inches of 36 ILD Talalay latex.
3rd layer: 3 inches of 28 ILD Talalay latex.

Option 2:

Bottom layer: 36 ILD
2nd layer: 28 ILD
3rd layer: 28 ILD

Which option would be more common to achieve what most manufacturers consider a medium level of firmness?

I imagine with either option 1 or 2, I might need to add a softer, thinner Talalay layer to the 3 layers if I want a softer feel down the road.

Option 3:

Buy one 3 inch layer of 36 ILD Talalay and one 3 inch layer of 28 ILD Talalay and then decide if I prefer a firmer or softer mattress.

Am I on the right track with the DIY route?

I read that some stores cut their toppers short which could pose a problem in trying to find the right cover. For what its worth, I just chatted online with Brooklyn Bedding and was told that the toppers would not be short, if anything there would be a greater chance that the topper would be closer to 60 x 80 than less than 60 x 79. There was contradictory information from forum members here last year by those who actually purchased the toppers.

Also, since Dreamfoam bedding is a sister company of Brooklyn Bedding would their Talalay toppers be sourced from the same manufacturer (their ILDs appear to be the same)?

Thanks!

Hi PLH123,

[quote]I am seriously considering the DIY Talalay blend route with 3 3" layers. I would like to achieve a medium firmness to start.

Option 1:

Bottom Support layer: 3 inches of 36 ILD Talalay latex.
2nd layer: 3 inches of 36 ILD Talalay latex.
3rd layer: 3 inches of 28 ILD Talalay latex.

Option 2:

Bottom layer: 36 ILD
2nd layer: 28 ILD
3rd layer: 28 ILD

Which option would be more common to achieve what most manufacturers consider a medium level of firmness?[/quote]

This is the part where you will need to either do some personal testing to find a mattress that “feels like” a medium to you and then use it as a reference point or blueprint for your mattress or alternatively to do some experimentation to find a combination of layers that feels “medium” to you.

Unfortunately here is no “standard” definition or consensus of opinion for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that is firm for one can feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. This is all relative and is as much an art as a science. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they “rate” a mattress (see post #15 here). In the end … this can be very subjective and how firm a mattress feels to you will be much more important than how a manufacturer “rates” their mattress or someone else’s perceptions or personal firmness rating.

Having said that … I think your first option would probably be closer to what most people would call “firm” and your second option would probably be closer to what most people would call medium although some could also call it “too soft” (especially if they were heavier) and others could call it “too firm” (especially if they were lighter).

I would take one of the two approaches I mentioned earlier which is either testing a local latex mattresses (if some latex mattresses are available locally that you can find out the type, thickness, and firmness of the layers) or use the “bottom up” approach I mentioned earlier where you start with about 6" of firmer latex (either one or two layers) and then use your experience on this to decide on the next step.

If you are confident that either of your two configurations won’t be too soft for you then it would probably be “safe” to start off with the 9" of latex in either one of them and then use your experience on the combination to decide what layers (if any) you would need to add to them.

Again … the return or exchange policies of the sources you are dealing with would also play a significant role in the “risk” involved in any of your choices.

That’s good to hear … and thanks for the update and for sharing their comments :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Thanks Phoenix.

I have decided to proceed with a DIY type build. I’m checking prices with various online sources.

I have a question about the bottom layer of support. In your opinion, will an extra firm latex layer instead of a firm layer on the bottom 3" layer of a 9" build likely make any difference in the firmness (feel) of the mattress if the top two layers remain medium firmness layers?

My current thinking is to add an Extra Firm 3" layer of Natural Dunlop for the bottom layer (if I can find it at a reasonable price), a 3" layer of medium natural Dunlop for the middle layer, and a 3" medium layer of Talalay for the top layer or a Natural Dunlop bottom layer with the 2 top layers of medium firmness Talalay. Any general recommendations between the two? I am pretty sure I want a Natural Dunlop layer as the bottom layer and a Talalay layer as the comfort layer.

Overall, my general thought is that if the final build proves to be a little too firm I can always add a softer layer on top and if the build is too soft I can add a firmer layer to the mix. The cost savings of not buying a pre-made mattress (especially a Dunlop-Talalay combo) would probably pay for a 4th layer if necessary - though return and exchange policies generally favor an already built mattress. It’s a risk reward proposition I’m comfortable choosing though I recognize many others might prefer a different choice.

Yet again, thanks for your help. I am amazed at the amount of work you put into your website to consistently stay on top of everything. Impressive.

Hi PLH123,

This would depend entirely on the person and their body type and sensitivity and where they are in the range between “princess and the pea” and “I can sleep on anything”. Some people that are more sensitive or perhaps heavier would “feel” the difference when they lie on the mattress and others wouldn’t. There are also some people who may feel the difference when they wake up in the morning because if an XF provides good alignment and the F doesn’t (or vice versa) then any “symptoms” that are connected to alignment issues are normally what you would feel in the morning after sleeping on the mattress for more extended periods of time rather than what you would feel when you first go to sleep at night. There is no way to predict how it would feel for you although differences in the upper layers are usually more obvious than relatively small differences in the bottom layer.

Again … there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to be able to recommend any specific combination based on specs (yours or a mattress) or theory at a distance. The only reliable way to know whether any combination of layers and components (including the cover which will have a significant effect on the mattress) will work well for you (and it’s very possible that both combinations will work equally well even though they are different) will be based on your own testing on similar combinations or your own sleeping experience. Neither combination seems unreasonable to me but there is no way for me to know whether you would sleep better on one than the other or whether they would both work equally well for you.

If your top layers are both Talalay then your mattress would have more of the “feel” of Talalay vs Dunlop which would be a preference choice for some people.

Phoenix

Before I decide to buy my mattress, I’ve read a lot and ask question to Phoenix he helped me a lot bigg thanks to him.
I’ve checked plenty of options diy,compare prices all the online stores the ones ofered 5% off for membership forum and the best and the one have $$ value was abscond from spindle,plus has a organic cover, with 3-3 layers natural and organic cover you won’t build it cheaper,from my experience I would suggest to go with spindle but again is your choice,but I suggest to go try latex mattress In the store for firmnes,that’s what I did.

I have a general question on the Talalay ILDs listed by various sellers. Based on your information, it is my understanding that there are 2 sources of blended Talalay: Radium and Latex International.

You previously offered these Radium targets - https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/66/NewRadiumILD1_2014-04-17.gif- S7 - 28.6 (±1.7), S8 - 33.5 (±3) and S9 as 39.8 (±3).

SleepEz and Mattresses 24/7 list their Medium blended Talalay ILD as 30-32 (same ILD as their 100% natural Talalay and natural Dunlop) - https://www.sleepez.com/mattresscomponents.htm.

I understand ILD is a range, but do you know why there is a difference in the stated ILDs if they both use Latexco as their supplier? These listed ILDs don’t match up with your numbers if Latexco sources their blended latex from Radium.

Latex International offers blended Talalay at 28, 32, 36 and 40-44 - http://www.latexfoam.com/latex-material/components.

BrooklynBedding states their blended Talalay ILD at 28 for medium and 36 for firm which matches up with LI stated targets. Mattresses.net (Arizona Premium Mattress) also states their blended Talalay ILD at 28 for medium.

SleepEZ is a member of the Mattress Underground (which means you think highly of them) and Mattresses24/7 has 100% positive EBAY feedback so I have no questions about their clearly positive reputations.

Maybe I’m over-thinking it, but I’m sure I’m not the first potential customer to notice SleepEZ’s ILD numbers are exactly the same for all their latex toppers no matter if blended or natural, Talalay or Dunlop. Am I reading the information you provided wrong on the ILD target ranges, has there been changes in the targets, or is there possibly an honest mistake by Latexco or in the SleepEz/mattresses 24/7 listings?

ILDs can get a bit confusing in trying to make comparisons. I simply want to make sure I purchase the right firmness level for the medium firmness layer/s of blended Talalay. I also think I read you stated that the ILD of Natural Dunlop is less instructive (look to density) to compare firmness levels than it is with Talalay.

Would a seller know simply whether their Radium firmness level is S7, S8, etc.?

Thanks Phoenix!

Hi PLH123,

Your questions may have more complex answers than you may realize and knowing the ILD’s of the different materials to the degree of specificity that you are looking for may be much less meaningful or effective in helping you to make comparisons than you believe they are.

Yes this is correct.

As you mentioned ILD numbers are never exact and don’t mean very much to the vast majority of people who buy mattresses so when these types of approximations are listed on a manufacturers site it’s usually to try and provide more meaningful and relatively simple reference points for customers that don’t have a frame of reference for what ILD numbers translate into in terms of real life feel and performance anyway.

I have talked with Radium in Holland for example and they have told me of cases where a mattress manufacturer wanted to switch from using LI to Radium and didn’t want the “feel” of their mattresses to change and when they tested and compared the results of their own ILD numbers with the listed ILD numbers from LI for the same type of Talalay that they weren’t the same and they had to provide a different ILD to “match” the feel of the previous latex layers they were using.

In addition to this ILD by itself is only one of many factors that can affect the softness/firmness of a material and if manufacturers don’t keep this type of information simple and meaningful then it tend to encourage their customers to go into “analysis mode” and they will tend to become overinvolved and overwhelmed in trying to “analyze” specs or make comparisons based on numbers that by themselves have little meaning or aren’t nearly as important as they believe they are. There are several specs besides just ILD for example that can affect how soft or firm a material or a mattress feels so using ILD by itself as the main point of reference can be very misleading (see post #4 here and post #2 here).

Too much information can lead to just as many poor choices as too little information and the type of more specific information you are looking for in most cases can do more harm than good or encourage customers to order what they “think” they need instead of what they really need … which of course would increase the rate of returns.

I think that this is true. When I (or most experienced manufacturers) see this type of detailed focus on ILD numbers in combination with the belief that they are more important than they really are it’s usually an indication of someone that is in over their head and trying to make choices or comparisons based on technical information that they don’t completely understand or don’t have the experience or frame of reference to know what all the specs mean in “real life”.

Information about the type and quality of a material (what I call “quality specs” … see here) are important to know and are an important part of transparency but “comfort specs” are a completely different matter. If a manufacturers that offers latex from several different suppliers were to provide all the “exact” numbers for every option they have then most consumers would tend to believe that the numbers are more important than they really are or worse yet that they know what they they need to know to make good choices or meaningful comparisons between two mattress which is certainly not the case. Many manufacturers that have multiple sources for latex will tend to use the KISS principle and provide information that is easier for their customers to make meaningful comparisons and many will even use just “soft”, “medium”, and “firm” to describe different materials or types of latex that are relatively comparable because they realize that if they were to provide all the information that was available to them that far too many of their customers would be focusing on the type of technical information that would overwhelm them and that wasn’t nearly as meaningful or even accurate in making real life comparisons than they think it is and they would end up doing more harm than good by contributing to “information overwhelm” and “paralysis by analysis”. This is as much an art as a science and in these cases experience means much more than knowing all the exact “comfort specs”. Most people wouldn’t feel any difference with ILD differences of less than about 4 ILD in the same type and blend of latex anyway.

Not only can it be confusing … for most people focusing on this type of technical information would make it impossible because they would believe that the “exact” numbers were a more accurate way to make comparisons than they really are.

There are really too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved to be able to predict with any certainty which combination of layers or components will be the best match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” … especially if you are only using one of many specs that can affect whether a mattress is suitable for you or whether it matches another mattress you have tested.

When you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help “talk you through” the specific options they have available based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here). They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or even to other mattresses that they are familiar with) than anyone else.

Most of them could probably find it out if they don’t know it off the top of their head but it would probably be a “red flag” for them as well that would indicate a customer that is overinvolved in specs that would be much more likely to make a choice based on what they think they need than what they really need and that would be much more likely to “make a mistake” and return the mattress.

Phoenix

You provided some informative links to read, especiallyhttps://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/latex-feel-ild-thickness. IMO, it’s one of your best posts I’ve read on the site. Well done.

Keep in mind, I very rarely return items - unless it’s not as advertised (wrong product), is an electronic item that arrives DOA, or, seldom, if it is new in box and never opened. I don’t try something out just to see if I like it. If I buy it, I keep it. I don’t complain after the fact. That’s why I try to research important buys (a mattress qualifies independent of its low relative cost because of the actual time of life spent on one) - to get it as close to right as possible the first time.

Regardless, with reference to a latex mattress, I can always add or substitute firmness layers if the firmness isn’t exactly right (and use any layer replaced as a separate topper or for a new mattress build).

To add context to the discussion, I should add that I spent a full year researching basically everything there was to know about dedicated home theaters (including all things related to construction, audio, video, etc.) before I hired a contractor to build one to my specs.

I could have hired and paid for an “expert” to tell me what I needed because it was “too complicated” for a lay person, but I did all of the necessary research to get it done “right” according to best practice standards. For example, every seat in the theater has an unobstructed view of the entire 130 inch acoustically transparent 2.35:1 scope screen. The front row is located at the ideal THX/SMPTE recommended viewing distances, plus the 2nd row is also within the maximum recommended HD viewing distance range. The theater is sound proof: it keeps sound from the outside out of the theater and sound from inside the theater outside of the rest of the house. Bass traps and acoustic panels (which I personally built from locally-sourced rigid fiberglass) are carefully placed all around the room: bass from the subwoofer located on the sand-filled stage is powerful, but also tight and controlled, movie dialog is crystal clear, and the surround sound effects are as the original mix intended. I could go on an on about more specific details of my home theater, but suffice it to say, the end result would classify as a professional build.

In other words, I highly doubt I’m “in over my head” when it comes to building a DIY latex mattress simply because I want to make sure, based on objective data, that a medium firmness layer is actually a medium firmness layer and not a firmer layer.

Yes, I can appreciate that ILDs are ranges, and that the concept of firmness levels may be complicated in practice, but based on the information you have previously provided, Talalay blended latex sourced through Radium has specific values. For example, either an item is S7 or it isn’t. My questions were specific with specific answers available.

What I can surmise based on your reply is that it is likely SleepEz (or possibly Latexco) defines, makes up, or substitutes their own ILD ranges to compare their various products independent of what Radium actually states is the ILD of the product they provide (unless the ILD information you have provided is somehow currently incorrect).

I can understand why simplicity over thorough accuracy (so as not to confuse customers with information that may or may not be all that helpful in the final analysis) may help sales because many consumers probably only want simple guidance and a general baseline for comparison, but I personally don’t appreciate the practice of providing “technical information” if it isn’t based on actual science.

If Radium is your source, either provide Radium’s actual ILD or don’t provide one at all (unless you have done your own verified independent testing - maybe they have). It is a fundamental principal of honest business practices - don’t make numbers up to foster sales - kinda, sorta close in the general ballpark isn’t nearly good enough if there are actual verified numbers, especially if a seller knows those numbers and is deliberately fudging them for their own benefit. Transparency and honesty are always important qualities in any seller whose business is built on reputation.

There are reasons Radium offers different ILD specs - to offer different firmness levels. I don’t want firm 3" upper layers, I want 3" medium level firmness upper layers. Maybe I won’t be able to tell a clear difference between 28 and somewhere around 32, but I’m confident I can tell a difference between 27 (within the S7 variance range) and 36 (within the S8 variance range). I simply want to know what the actual target of Radium was for a specific piece of Talalay latex. SleepEz medium firmness could actually be a S7 or S8 firm based on their range. S7 28.6 + 1.7 falls within the 30-32 range. S8 33.5 - 3.0 also falls within the 30-32 range. Hopefully, the ILD range specified on their website is based on their own independently verified testing, their ILD range stated is an honest mistake, or I have missed an important detail somewhere.

Again, I don’t want to directly question the integrity of SleepEz because they have a very good reputation from everything I’ve read (and you also believe they are trustworthy), but it seems you deflected my specific questions regarding SleepEz by stating these questions were either generally unimportant or indicative of a lack of knowledge. In all honesty, if a salesman offered that point of view in a store, that would be the end of me wanting to do business with that person. And I’m a good customer to have because not only do I buy (and not return), but I also influence others to buy.

I respect your intelligence, your obvious work ethic, the time you have taken to answer my questions, and all that you have accomplished with this site so I don’t take what you say personally and believe that you are offering your point of view on the relative importance of specific ILD firmness ratings.

But if you know that SleepEz’ ILD numbers could be better, just say it. If you think they are accurate, say that also. If they are going to disclose the ILD of their product, it should be accurate (either by Radium’s standard or independently verified standards). Otherwise, how does one actually have any chance of even attempting to meaningfully compare the medium level firmness of SleepEz’ blended Talalay to let’s say the medium level firmness of Arizona Mattress or BrooklynBedding?

Yes, I’m sure there are many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved in trying to determine a preferred mattress for any individual, but preferring 2 layers of medium Talalay (based on design specs) and a firm base layer over 3 firm layers (based on possible design specs) is not complicated and quite specific.

I simply want to buy some layers of latex and build a mattress. I’m pretty sure I know what I want. If I’m ultimately wrong on the right mattress for me I’ll find out (and fix it by buying additional layers), but I know I don’t want firm upper layers. I only want to confirm I’m getting what I want based on actual design specs.

Hopefully the tone in my response was not too negative for a forum such as this. I recognize I’m not an expert in the world of latex mattresses, but when I notice something that doesn’t seem accurate on the surface, I take note. I’d rather get clarification than rule out sellers who have no intention of being intentionally misleading.

It’s possible SleepEz could be missing out on sales from potential customers if they only provided one additional detail - or a simple explanation. I can’t possibly believe I’m the only potential buyer who has noticed the ILD discrepancies. By the same token, potential buyers could be missing out on high quality products from a valued seller simply because the information seemed inaccurate even if that wasn’t the intention.

Hi PLH123,

Yes … the specific answers would likely be available but you may need to make some phone calls to find them rather than looking for the information on their websites for some of the reasons that I mentioned earlier.

There is no “standard” definition or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings such as “medium” and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses or materials very differently than others. Whether you are comparing by “word ratings” or by “ILD/IFD” there are still too many other variables involved when you are making a mattress to make specific or meaningful comparisons based only on a single spec. For example … a polyfoam layer that has a compression modulus of 2.5 with an IFD of 20 will feel very different from another polyfoam layer that has the same IFD but a lower compression modulus. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress or a material that feels firm for one person may feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. Different people can also have very different opinions on how two materials compare in terms of firmness as well because there are different “types” of firmness softness that some people may be more sensitive to than others (see post #15 here). This is all relative to each person’s perceptions and circumstances and the only reliable way to know how firm or soft a material or a mattress feels to you or how it compares to another mattresses or materials (regardless of how firm or soft it may feel for someone else) will be based on your own personal testing or sleeping experience.

Latexco is the main supplier of Radium Talalay latex in the US (outside of some manufacturers that order container loads directly from Radium) and they use the “official” specs that are supplied from Radium but they may “simplify” them or round them off for the sake of simplicity. These simplified numbers may in turn be listed on various manufacturers websites as approximations to fit into general categories so that different materials they have available can be compared more effectively for the sake of simplicity and consumer understanding as well. The more specific numbers would probably be available with some phone calls.

[quote]I can understand why simplicity over thorough accuracy (so as not to confuse customers with information that may or may not be all that helpful in the final analysis) may help sales because many consumers probably only want simple guidance and a general baseline for comparison, but I personally don’t appreciate the practice of providing “technical information” if it isn’t based on actual science.

If Radium is your source, either provide Radium’s actual ILD or don’t provide one at all (unless you have done your own verified independent testing - maybe they have). It is a fundamental principal of honest business practices - don’t make numbers up to foster sales - kinda, sorta close in the general ballpark isn’t nearly good enough if there are actual verified numbers, especially if a seller knows those numbers and is deliberately fudging them for their own benefit. Transparency and honesty are always important qualities in any seller whose business is built on reputation.

There are reasons Radium offers different ILD specs - to offer different firmness levels. I don’t want firm 3" upper layers, I want 3" medium level firmness upper layers. Maybe I won’t be able to tell a clear difference between 28 and somewhere around 32, but I’m confident I can tell a difference between 27 (within the S7 variance range) and 36 (within the S8 variance range). I simply want to know what the actual target of Radium was for a specific piece of Talalay latex. SleepEz medium firmness could actually be a S7 or S8 firm based on their range. S7 28.6 + 1.7 falls within the 30-32 range. S8 33.5 - 3.0 also falls within the 30-32 range. Hopefully, the ILD range specified on their website is based on their own independently verified testing, their ILD range stated is an honest mistake, or I have missed an important detail somewhere.

Again, I don’t want to directly question the integrity of SleepEz because they have a very good reputation from everything I’ve read (and you also believe they are trustworthy), but it seems you deflected my specific questions regarding SleepEz by stating these questions were either generally unimportant or indicative of a lack of knowledge. In all honesty, if a salesman offered that point of view in a store, that would be the end of me wanting to do business with that person. And I’m a good customer to have because not only do I buy (and not return), but I also influence others to buy.[/quote]

The type of specificity that you are looking for would be very unusual and in most cases can cause much more harm than good for the reasons I mentioned in my last reply. The information they provide would be “close enough” in any meaningful way for consumers to make fully informed choices about the suitability, durability, and “value” of a mattress which is the only real goal. While you may be an exception … there are so many variables involved that for most people the type of information you are looking for wouldn’t make a meaningful difference and the research would become so complex that they would just “give up” and revert to buying a mattress based on “marketing stories” rather than more meaningful information even if it isn’t 100% accurate. The mainstream manufacturers already control over 90% of the industry and the smaller manufacturers walk a fine line to maintain a balance between building great quality/value mattresses, being fully transparent to the degree that is meaningful, and still being able to stay in business when all the “influences” in the industry including the tendency of most consumers to buy mattresses for all the wrong reasons and replace legitimate research with advertising and marketing stories that they believe or reviews that they think are meaningful is endemic. I have watched many smaller manufacturers go out of business not because they don’t build better mattresses but because they can’t compete with the advertising that is the biggest influence in consumer purchase decisions. Any manufacturer that primarily caters too specifically to the needs or understanding of a small minority will tend to lose sales from the majority of people that they depend on to stay in business in the first place and the odds of success in an industry that is mostly not transparent at all are already against them.

Criticizing these types of manufacturers that provide the degree of transparency and legitimate and meaningful information that is head and shoulders above 95% of the industry and is so much more than you will find in almost every other area of the industry makes very little sense and only contributes to the problem of the industry in general. If your specific need for information is that much greater and you are in that small a percentile of the population then talking to them on the phone is the most reliable way to find out the more specific information that you need.

Mattresses are a much more subjective experience than electronic products where specs can be more clearly defined and are less variable even between the products of the same manufacturer (although they are still open to interpretation and each person’s “ear” of course). Without being about to “translate” this type of information into a meaningful reference point or without an understanding that some specs by themselves or degrees of specificity have little meaning, and without knowing which ones are more or less important, they have much less value. There is little “value” for example in a speaker that has a frequency response range outside the range of human hearing or perception or where the balance of the frequency response between the speakers and their transition points isn’t natural or is distorted even though the specs may look better. One significant flaw that a listener is sensitive to can overwhelm all the other “great” specs of a speaker. This type of understanding comes with more experience in the industry as a whole and isn’t generally well understood (at least initially) by those that are primarily focused on more technical research.

Buying a sleeping system that you sleep well on for a long period of time is of course everyone’s goal and you may reach it on your first try or it may take several iterations but you will know when you have reached it when you sleep on the mattress because this is the only reliable or meaningful test for your success regardless of which set of “specs” turns out to be best for you.

Phoenix

I’ve had a chance to think about your response a bit.

Based on what you’ve stated, it’s Latexco that offers the “revised” ILD numbers. If that’s true, then I"m not going to find fault in an online seller using these “simplified” numbers given to them by their US supplier.

Of course, I’d much prefer more complete transparency by Latexco based on actual Radium numbers. I simply don’t agree with the concept of “rounding off/simplifying/fudging” the actual scientific testing numbers for marketing purposes (you may claim that view represents a small minority but nobody likes inconsistencies).

Regardless, the product offered is still the same quality Radium Talalay latex no matter how it is described.

You made a good point about the mattress industry as a whole. I imagine it can be tough for smaller companies to compete with the advertising dollars of major manufacturers even when their product is often times better made and costs less.

Hi PLH123,

Just to be clear … I don’t know where any of the numbers originate or who provided what information to who and I was speculating about the reasons that these types of approximations can happen. What I do know is that with a phone call to SleepEZ they will provide you with all the information that they have available about any of the materials they carry along with the benefit of the knowledge that comes from their many decades of experience.

Phoenix