Stearns and Foster Ultra Firm (Twila/Lynda) vs. Luxury Firm (Twila/Lynda)

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hi Phoenix,

Well, this is surely my last bothersome question to you (until I research my guest bed which will probably be a latex from BB or cheaper as Ultimate Dreams). I have read your site and feel I know some of the posts by heart…and also feel some of the people writing could have been me (particularly “butternut”, who had to trade in for a Stearns and Foster and couldn’t decide between ultrafirm and luxury firm). I have only a day or two before I reach my 100 day trial period limit for my mattress from usmattress.com. It is a Simmons Beautyrest Black Ella Luxury Firm. At first, it seemed to hard and hurt my shoulder as I have a bit of pain anyway in my shoulders and sleep on my side a lot (and back too). So I bought a 1 inch celsion talalay topper in 14 (probably too soft…the celsion goes by a different scale than normal talalay I think…so I think the 14 in celsion is equivalent to 19 in regular talalay). The topper took away my shoulder pain but made the bed feel too soft overall and caused bad lower back pain. I then tried a scrap piece they sent me of talalay in 28 and that is not comfortable at all (too firm I guess). Maybe 24 will be right .

BUT, now even without the topper, I feel that the Simmons is too soft (it is rated a “4” on the 1 - 10 comfort scale of usmattress.com). I guess the gel/memory foam/eurocool foam is starting to soften up. So I think I better get a firmer mattress before my trial period runs out. I need to spend about the same amount ($2500) and if the replacement is cheaper, I don’t get any money back and lose it. So for a firm mattress in the $2500 price range (for a king) on their site, it seems the Stearns and Foster Lynda Ultra Firm or Luxury Firm is best bet (I am sure that the Lynda is same as the “Twila”. )

I have read all your posts where you recommend for people in my situation (stuck with a trade-in and limited choices), that the Ultra Firm Twila (Lynda) is a good choice due to limited comfort materials (although it has 4 inches…but some of that is a type of latex, and then something called Marvelux, which appears to be a firmer foam). In your other posts on this exact question, I see you often refer people to a link to see the specs on the mattress, but that link doesn’t go to anything anymore. I believe it was to the The Mattress Expert blog site where the man often advised people to buy a hard Stearns and Foster Heidi (Terri, and other names) and put on a 2 inch latex topper. I wrote directly to that man, and he wrote back to me, saying the Twila is in the higher quality of Stearns and Foster mattresses (at least doesn’t get the sagging complaints that the others often do, and I know they don’t make them like they used to). He doesn’t carry S&F anymore, but anyway, he insists that for a person my size (5’5" and 125 pounds), the choice of the Twila Ultra Firm is overcorrecting and that no one my size needs a mattress that hard. He believes the Twila (Lynda) Luxury Firm is the correct one. However, (I did explain this to him, but he still believes the ultra firm would be a mistake), I was planning to put a topper on the ultra firm, and figured the comfort materials in the ultra firm might be less prone to sagging than the ones in the Luxury firm. I did try two similar S&F at a local Sleepy’s (no one else carries much in S&F here in Vermont) and I must say, the ultra firm is definitely very hard, so absolutely needs a topper. My topper experience so far isn’t so great. The 14 ILD Celsion was pricey and caused me back pain (and even seems quite warm, even tho celsion is supposed to be cooler), and the 28 talalay was not comfortable at all (too firm I guess, and also hot)… Maybe the 24 ILD would work, but I worry about spending a lot of money on topper mistakes.
So anyway, by tomorrow I need to decide between the Lynda/Twila Ultra Firm and the Lynda/Twila Luxury Firm. The “mattress expert” feels rather strongly that I will regret getting the ultra firm. I just want to re-confirm with you, that your standard advice would be to get the Twila Ultra firm and then try to find a topper that works. (my toppers were from Sleep Like a Bear. Evelyn there helped me and she is really wonderful…spends lots of time trying to figure out my body type and sleeping position and what would work best and is very acommodating, as much as company policy will allow. But their return policy costs money, so again, I worry that the Twila ultra firm will feel like the floor, and then I will spend a lot of money with topper mistakes. FYI: These are the layers in the Lynda/Twila ultra firm:

Ultra Firm
Comfort Scale 1.5
Quilt - Top of Mattress
FlameGuard Fiber
.5" HD High Performance Foam
.5 oz fiber
.5" Marvelux
Comfort - Padding Layers
1" HD Foam
2" Marvelux
.79" Smart Latex And this is what is in the Stearns and Foster Lynda/Twila Luxury Firm:

Comfort
Luxury Firm
Comfort Scale 3
Quilt - Top of Mattress
FlameGuard Fiber
.1" Ultra Soft (I think the 0.1" must be a mistake? I wrote to usmattress to find out. I’m sure they mean 1 inch?)
.5 oz fiber
1" Hypersoft ®
Comfort - Padding Layers
1" HD Foam
2" Marvelux
.79" Smart Latex (Any advice appreciated. ) Thanks!

2

Hi adriatic,

Celsion (now called talalay GL fast response) uses exactly the same ILD scale and method of testing for ILD as their other types of Talalay latex. 14 ILD in one would be a close equivalent of 14 ILD in another.

I think the bigger issue is that there are 5" of unknown and probably lower quality materials above the innerspring which can soften and break down much more quickly than foam that is higher quality/density and more durable. This could be what is happening.

In one sense he is correct in that you don’t “need” a mattress that firm but the goal isn’t to choose a suitable mattress (which would have too much lower quality foam) but to choose a mattress that would make a good “base” that has less lower quality materials and then add your own comfort layers as a topper. It would definitely be a more durable choice than a Stearns & Foster that has thicker foam layers but you would likely need a thicker (and more costly) topper to make up for the extra firmness in the ultra firm as well.

For example in addition to the specs you listed you can see the same specs of the Twila Ultra Firm here and as you can see it only has 1.5" of foam that isn’t either marvelux (which is generally higher quality but still not the best quality) or latex. On the other hand … the Twila Luxury firm here is different from the specs you listed and has 6" of questionable foam including 2" of ultra soft or hypersoft. If these specs are correct then the ultra firm clearly has less of the “bad stuff” which means it would be less risky and more durable but would also need more of the “good stuff” in a topper to make it comfortable for you and there would be some risk and expense involved in choosing the most suitable topper that worked well in combination with your mattress. As you read in the “exchange” posts … the goal is either to choose a mattress that has good quality comfort layers that don’t need a topper or to choose a “base” mattress that has less of the lower quality materials and then add a topper for the additional comfort you need.

The specs for the Lynda Ultra Firm here are the same as the ones I linked and the ones you listed so my comments about the Twila Ultra Firm would apply.

The specs for the Lynda Luxury Firm here are the same as the ones you listed but are different from the Twila Luxury Firm I linked so it would depend on which one was correct. Assuming that the US mattress site is correct then given your lower weight … then 3" of questionable foam isn’t “too bad” although it’s still more than I would want to have in a mattress. Your lower weight would also lower the risk. He is probably thinking more in terms of comfort and that the softer version wouldn’t need the same thickness of topper and a 2" topper would probably work OK. I’m thinking more about the overall quality of the materials and durability and minimizing any weak links at a tradeoff of probably needing a thicker and possibly more costly topper which is probably the reason for the difference between us.

US mattress also has many other mattresses that may make better choices than any of the ones you mentioned so it may be worth considering other options as well. Are you able to exchange for any of their mattresses?

Phoenix

3

Phoenix,
Thank you for replying so quickly! Yes, I agree that “the mattress expert” is surely thinking of what mattress would be the most comfortable for me, or comfortable with a 2 inch latex topper. However, given that every mattress I’ve bought (and returned lately) seems to feel firm at first, and then after a month or two, feels saggy on my lower back, I’m afraid of getting something that might have questionable foam that feels good at first but breaks down later. I didn’t return my king sized Celsion 14 ILD topper, so it’s possible I could use it in combo with another 1 inch topper on a new very hard bed. (For the heck of it, I put the 1 inch 28 ILD Talalay scrap piece on the carpeted floor, with the 1 inch Celsion 14 ILD piece over it, and a sheet, and tried lying on that. I figured if usmattress.com rates the S&F Twila/Lynda ultra firm as a “1.5” or like sleeping on a carpeted floor, then this would be a good test to see what it felt like with the double toppers. Well, it felt awful. Still felt like lying on the carpeted floor. And my floor has no springy bed bounce. I sure hope that’s not how the S&F Lynda/Twila ultra firm would feel with toppers).

usmattress.com allows me to exchange the bed for any bed on their site. It should be of equal or more value than what I already bought. If it is of lesser value, then I just lose the difference. I spent $2500 on the Simmons beautyrest black Ella luxury firm that I want to trade in. Did you see a different king bed in that price range that you think would be a better choice than the Stearns and Foster Lynda Ultra Firm? (by the way, given your comments in your reply, which I figured would be your view, I think I would go with your advice and get the ultra firm, if it ends up being between the two Lynda models. I just don’t want to risk sagging materials later on, and I guess I can always correct with a topper. At this point, getting the right comfort is way more important to me than saving money on toppers. A good night’s sleep is priceless and I have not slept well since I moved into my house in August and started making mistakes on bed purchases. (as an aside from this topic, I am also stuck with some Serta I-Series prodigies, twin extra longs for guests. They were good at first, but now my back also hurts on them. The “mattress expert” suggests to other people on his blog to flip the saggy memory foam beds over and sleep on the polyfoam bottom that you’re not supposed to sleep on, adding the right topper as necessary for softeness. Might try that, but that’s another topic and my focus today is to get my replacement for my king sized failing Simmons).
Thank you for your advice! your website is wonderful!

4

Phoenix,

Just a quick addition to my message above. I see the difference between the S&F Lynda Luxury Firm on the usmattress.com website and the S&F Twila Luxury Firm you linked to in your message. If the specs on each website are correct, then my GUESS is that maybe S&F changed how they make the Twila Luxury Firm and substituted 3 inches of HD Foam that was in the Twila Luxury Firm for 2 inches of Marvelux (which I guess is firmer/more supportive than HD foam). So maybe the Lynda luxury firm would be firmer and not break down as quickly as the Twila Luxury Firm? hmmmm. Also, on usmattress.com’s website, they seem to have an error. On the little pictures of the mattresses with the comfort level listed (and the compare button), they list the Lynda Luxury Firm as a comfort level “4”. But when you get to the specs of the mattress, it says comfort level “3”. I just called them and the the sales guy seems sure it is supposed to be a comfort level “3”. Maybe it went one level harder when they added the marvelux? who knows. I listed the two comfort layers of the Lynda Luxury Firm and the Twila Luxury Firm below. (I need to learn how to make links).
Twila Luxury Firm
Comfort Layers
2" HD Foam
2" HD Foam
.79" Smart Latex®

S&F Lynda Luxury Firm:
Comfort - Padding Layers
1" HD Foam
2" Marvelux
.79" Smart Latex

You mentioned in your other email that you thought there were better options on usmattress.com. I just called them to ask if I bought a much cheaper bed than the one I’m trading in (that cost $2500) could I then spend the difference toward another mattress or pillows, etc. The man said, no. I just lose the money. So, I guess I am a bit reluctant to lose a bunch of money. If I get the S&F Lynda (ultra firm or luxury firm), I only lose $100 plus the $100 they charge for trading it in. I dont’ see any other mattresses in the $2500 range on their site that seem like they would match your recommendations.

Unless you see a good $2500 mattress that I missed, then I guess I should go with that rock hard Lynda ultra firm? And try to fix it with toppers? (even tho I’m only 51, I guess I have a bit of arthritis (hate to say that) in my shoulder, and I like to sleep on my side…so I’m a bit worried if I can’t make the ultra firm softer for my shoulder (but keep it firm enough for my back). This bed buying is a nightmare. I lived in Europe for a long time, and they have a such a simple, inexpensive method for their beds…base has flexible wood slats that can be adjusted for firmness at shoulders and hips, and then just a thin (I think latex) mattress on top. Everyone seems happy with their beds and no one ever talks about a sagging mattress. Oh well. Thanks for your help! My mother, sister, and daughter think I’ve become crazy with my mattress problems. Well, they’ll see if they ever try to buy a new mattress. Things sure have changed.

5

Hi adriatic,

I’m not sure how you feel about a non innerspring mattress or latex comfort layers or how you would feel sleeping on it but it may be worth considering one of the Sealy Optimum latex line which are also in the approximate price range you are locked into. At least a mattress like this or this or this or this doesn’t have any obvious weak links in the comfort layers so you could choose a mattress that you thought would work well for you without a topper.

Phoenix

6

Phoenix,

Oh wow! Those were the original mattresses I was considering as a trade in for my Simmons beautyrest. And I read as many posts as I could find on your site about the Optimum, but it seemed that there were too many questions about exactly what the comfort layers were made of and if quality was good enough. (or maybe that was posts that mostly addressed the original optimum, which doesn’t have latex, but rather is the memory foam/gelfoam bed). I was worried that the Optimum might end up sagging like my I Comfort Prodigy (which is memory foam/gel foam). I actually went to a store (Ashley’s furniture) and tried the Optimums they had (they don’t have the Gel Latex yet…only the combo memory foam/gel foam) and liked the Elation (which is rather soft or a “7” on the usmattress comfort rating). I tried the Optimum Radiance (which is also memory foam/gel foam) and thought it too hard (it’s a “4” on the usmattress.com rating scale, just like my Simmons beautyrest black Ella which is also a “4” but I now find it too soft). I called all around New England to ask if anyone had the Optimum Gel Latex beds yet so I could test one, and no one does. Ashley’s in Vermont will get them in April, but I don’t think they have them yet, so I can’t try them. Hmmmmm.

Ok, if you don’t think they will probably not end up sagging, and would be a better choice than the S&F Twila, then I’ll go ahead and order the Optimum Gel Latex. I think I was aiming for the Meadowcrest before, which is a neutral “5” comfort level, but since I’ve been having problems with my formerly firm mattresses starting to soften up, I’m thinking it might be smarter to go with the Brasswood (a harder 3.5), which will probably feel too hard at first, but it might soften up and I can always add a topper. I know you can’t know, because you don’t know what kind of “latex” they use, but do you think the Brasswood’s latex would eventually soften up a bit? What do you think of that plan? Thank you so much! I promise that whatever bed I buy, I’ll write on your site how it turned out . That always seems to be the thing that is missing. People buy their beds, and then you wonder if they ended up liking them or if they started to sag. Meantime, I’ll call Ashley’s to see if those gel latex beds came in yet. Thanks Phoenix!

7

Hi adriatic,

The Optimum latex mattresses are newer than the original Optimum mattresses so I’m guessing that the posts you read were about the memory foam versions … not the latex.

While they still wouldn’t be the best “value” for most people compared to other mattresses that use similar or higher quality materials in lower budget ranges … they would certainly be worth considering as an option in your circumstances IMO.

Latex is a more durable material and will soften more slowly and maintain it’s original properties for longer than the 4 lb (or lower) memory foam that is in the Optimum memory foam mattresses.

I believe they use one of the versions of continuous pour Dunlop made by Mountaintop Foam which is owned by Tempur Sealy International.

Phoenix

8

Do you think, because it is latex, that the Meadowcrest Optimum (comfort level 5) would not really get softer or break down much over the years? Or does latex kind of “break in” and get softer like other beds with gel foam, memory foam and/or polyfoam do? Even though I know the comfort level 5 would surely be the best for me (for my shoulder) now, I worry that if it breaks down even a little, it will be too soft. So I’m thinking I’ll order the Brasswood Optimum Latex at the 3.5 comfort level, so it has room to soften and/or I could always put a topper on it to add softness if needed…or even try just putting a piece under my shoulder if that doesn’t throw alignment out of whack. thanks very much.

9

Phoenix,
Actually, I think your answer to my question in last post on chances of the Sealy Optimum Meadowcrest latex breaking down, maybe sooner than the Brasswood would probably be answered by your post on durability which I just read here: https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/foam-mattresses-and-qsaggingq--qcompressionq

So I guess I’ll just go with the more firm mattress and hope it doesn’t soften up too much. At least hope it will be better than the Stearns and Foster TWila. thanks .

10

Hi adriatic,

All foam materials and mattresses will go through some initial break in period as the foam loses any of its “false firmness”, the cover stretches, and any fibers settle somewhat and compress. In general terms though … latex is the most durable of all foam materials and this softening and breakdown will be less and take a longer period of time than other types of foam (even if they are good quality). There is more about the many factors that can affect durability and the useful life of a mattress relative to different people in post #4 here and the posts it links to.

As a general foam category … latex is the “gold standard” for durability out of the different types of foam (polyfoam, memory foam, and latex foam).

If you know the materials are good quality and that any foam softening or breakdown will be minimal … then it’s usually best to choose a mattress that is as close as possible to your ideal in terms of PPP and not choose a firmer (or softer) mattress than you really need with the intent of compensating for softening over time. If you are “stuck” between two firmness ratings however then it’s usually better to choose slightly firmer than slightly softer because you can always add a topper to improve the pressure relief or comfort of a mattress but there is no great way to make a mattress that is already too soft any firmer without removing and replacing foam layers (see post #4 here).

Phoenix

PS: I see you found one of the links I mentioned in this reply while I was writing it :slight_smile:

11

Phoenix,
Ha, I’m good at answering myself, but one last correction here. I realized that the usmattress.com classification of the comfort levels of its Sealy Optimum Latex mattresses is wrong (I just wrote to them to tell them so). It is clear that with each additional inch of latex in the second layer, the mattress should be softer. So actually, the Meadowcrest should be firmer than the Brasswood. Whew! Glad I caught that or I would have ordered an even softer mattress than what I have. I checked on the Sealy site and sure enough, the Meadowcrest is a “cushion firm” and the Brasswood is a “firm”. So the firmness order by less to more latex is: Dreams, Meadowcrest, Brasswood and Newness. I bet the Meadowcrest should be more like a 3.5 and the Brasswood more like a a5 or 6. So I’ll order the meadowcrest.

12

Oh brother. Typo in my last message. The Sealy website shows the Brasswood as a “Plush”, is what i meant to write. So I’m doing with the cushion firm Meadowcrest.

thanks for your reply on figuring firmness.

13

Hi adriatic,

[quote]Oh brother. Typo in my last message. The Sealy website shows the Brasswood as a “Plush”, is what i meant to write. So I’m doing with the cushion firm Meadowcrest.

thanks for your reply on figuring firmness.[/quote]

I think that seems to be a logical choice (and hopefully your experience will confirm it) and it also happens to be in the same budget range as the mattress you are exchanging :slight_smile:

Phoenix

14

Adriatic, how do you like your mattress? I’m considering purchasing in that same Sealy Optimum Gel Latex line.