Still not sure

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

I have been looking, trying, reading and still can’t decide. I went to the Clean Bedroom in MA and loved the Green Sleep Dolcezza, king but it is so expensive. My side was soft, med,firm, firm. My husband liked soft, soft, med firm on his side. He is 6’ 185 lbs. I am 5’4" 140 lbs. I believe it is all tala way latex. Very comfortable.
I also went to Jordan’s furniture and liked their Natura twilight euro top. Comfort layer is 1" tala way latex soft 19ILD and 2" T latex medium 28 ILD. The Support system is 6" talaway and 4 OLB density. natural but not completely organic other materials.
Is Natura a good company?

I briefly talked to Shaun at Sleep ez. His price was better but it is impossible for me to compare apples w apples. I don.t know how his bed feels. I also don’t know what the outer materials look like and feel like. the Dolceza and Natura beds look very nice…luxurious feeling.

Would love to find the Green sleep Dolceza somewhere at a lower price but don’t think that’s possible. any advise for where to go from here?

2

Hi Bobbie,

It can be a difficult choice when you have tested and particularly like a premium mattress with more complex layering that isn’t easy to “duplicate” but is also not good value based on the design and the materials that are in it (at least by most people’s definition of “value”)

The Green Sleep Dolezza is actually a Dunlop latex mattress (not Talalay). It is certainly a beautiful mattress that uses high quality materials but is also very costly compared to other mattresses that use similar materials in similar amounts. As you probably know … it has 4 layers as follows …

1.5" Dunlop - soft quilted with 3 lbs/sq ft of wool.
3" Dunlop your choice of firmness on each side
3" Dunlop your choice of firmness on each side
2" Dunlop - firm

In addition to the @ $4400 cost for the mattress (queen), if you tested the mattress with the dowel base then this could also be a significant part part of how it felt for you and the mattress would be different on a firm foundation (unless this was what you tested it on). This means that to have the same feel and performance you would need to spend an additional $1600 for the foundation.

Because the layering and construction is fairly complex … about the closest you could come to “approximating” this mattress with another mattress would be testing other mattresses with 9" - 10" of latex that used similar amounts of wool or with a wool topper or with component mattress with about 8" - 9" of latex in layers that are similar to the bottom 3 layers of the Dolcezza with either a soft 1.5" - 2" topper quilted with wool or a latex topper and a wool topper over that which had a similar amount of wool. Because the ILD’s and layer thickness may not be the same and the component mattress would have separate layers rather than being quilted together … this would be an approximation but it could provide the same pressure relief and support/alignment at a significantly lower cost (in the range of 60% of the Dolcezza or less) even though the more subjective “feel” would be different. I would also make sure you had tested the Dolcezza without the foundation so you had a clear idea whether the additional cost of the foundation or a similar foundation was justified for you.

Post #2 here has more about “matching” another mattress and I would tend to avoid the temptation of using the subjective “feel” of any mattress as a target and use more objective methods of assessing other mattresses against a common set of “standards” such as those in post #46 here.

As far as Natura, They are a Canadian manufacturer that makes a wide range of mattresses that tend to use good quality materials. They recently went bankrupt (tried to expand too quickly and be all things to all people) and were purchased by Spring Air Sommex. Most of their mattresses including the one you are looking at (assuming the layering you listed is accurate) tend to use good quality materials but they too are also more costly than many other mattresses that use the same materials in similar amounts. I don’t know the specifics of the mattress you are looking at but some of their mattresses also use a fair bit of wool in the quilting. As far as the latex it is in the same range as the Dolcezza at 9" (although it is Talalay which is a different type of latex). For the most part based on the pricing I have seen at most retailers that sell them … I would also put them in a “good quality but not good value” range.

There are many other options in the Boston area though that are listed in Post #2 here and many of these carry latex options that are more reasonable than the mattresses you have looked at.

There are also online component mattresses available (including SleepEz who you talked to) that have very good value and some of the members here that sell these are listed in post #21 here.

If I was in your shoes I would follow the steps in post #1 here and include some of the other retailers/manufacturers that are close to you in your research and possibly one or more or the online manufacturers as well as an option and value comparison. When you are down to 3 - 5 finalists or so then you can choose between them based on all the tradeoffs that are part of your own personal value equation. Once you have tested some better value choices at other manufacturers or retailers you will also have a much better frame of reference and context to help you decide if the extra cost for similar materials is worth the difference in price for either the Dolcezza or the Natura Twilight.

I know I personally would have a very difficult time justifying that kind of price when there are so many other great options available but in the end that’s a decision each person would need to decide for themselves based on what is most important to them.

Phoenix

3

Thank you so much for your informative reply. I did not know of the other stores in the Boston area. I will start calling them Monday and go to whoever has mattresses on display. I think I will start with Gardner, Worley Beds, Mattress Makers, Boston Bed, and My Green Mattress…I’ll try to choose 3 from that group to visit based on their reply to my questions.

I wish I were brave enough to order on line! I feel that I must try out a mattress first. Also, my husband would prefer delivery and set up from a store. You made some excellent points about the Dolcezza at the Clean Bedroom. I don’t yet yet know what foundation is on the one I tried at the store. first of all, I thought it was Talaway and also the foundation they are giving me is the Green Sleep S-50 and is $768.24 (reflects a small discount). Final price inc tax and everything is about $5500…whereas the Natura is about $3500 plus tax. my husband really likes the Natura. I tried to find the “Twilight” on the Internet but did not see it. is that a legitimate name or something Jordan calls it? Although the Natura is all natural latex, the materials on this particular bed are not organic. the quilt is: wool blend cover, natural cotton fire barrier, 4.2 lbs pure naturaWool, 1" convoluted quilting latex. how does that sound to you? They had higher range bed that was all organic but it had a too soft (for us anyway) pillow top and we found the Natura more comfortable. Another big difference is that the layers are already all put together within its cover and are not changeable as the Dolceza.
Not sure if that makes Abigail differencto us. Again, thank you so much for quick response and I look forward to hearing from you again regarding this email.

4

Hi Bobbie,

It’s not unusual at all that some retailers have their own name for a mattress. Your mattress uses blended latex in the deeper layers (they call this natural and 100% natural latex is called 'all natural) with an inch of Dunlop on top (the convoluted layer) which are good quality materials and your mattress is very similar to either the Natura Bloom plush or the Natura Thrive plush which strangely enough have the same layers. It’s possible that the Thrive has an extra inch of Talalay which would make it the same as yours. There is less wool in this than the Dolcezza. You can read more about the different types of latex in post #6 here … and as you can see there isn’t any such thing as organic Talalay anyway … only blended or 100% natural.

So overall the Natura uses all very good quality materials … but it also has a higher cost than many other mattresses that use similar materials (particularly blended talalay in similar amounts).

I’m looking forward to hearing your feedback about what you find at some of the other Boston area manufacturers and retailers.

Phoenix

5

Hi,
I am still plugging away with this mattress search. What is very frustrating is all the differing opinions I am getting from different companies…some actually opposite information. The only conclusions I have come to at this point is that I prefer to buy a mattress I have tried vs ordering one on line because I am finding it is virtually impossible to compare apples with apples. Also, I am leaning toward not buying the loose layered latex. My husband and I like a similar feel (medium firm with a soft top layer) and we are both mainly side sleepers. I doubt if we will be shifting the layers around and one company actually said gluing the layers together (with natural simalfa glue) could prevent the layers from breaking down over the years due to shifting, etc. What do you think about that.?

We went through the list of companies in MA and a couple of them were most informative but, again, with differing info. Please comment on the following info:

  • John at Worley beds was very knowledgable. These are his suggestions:
    He advised against the Natura since they went bankrupt last year and may not stand by their warranty.
    Organic and wool materials are expensive and do not increase comfort. Their coverings are a variety of synthetic materials, although I believe he said he would give us organic if we wanted.
    He said talaway is more uniform an Dunlop less durable.
    This is the biggy…he said there is no such thing as 100% natural latex…some other ingredients go into the process after they get it out of the tree. Blended talaway ( with non natural ingredients) is not harmful and actually has a longer life span than the 100 %natural.
    They do have 8", 10", 12" 100% talaway but the other materials on the mattress (topping) are not organic. We will go to his store in Ne Bedford to try out what he has. It’s about an hours ride.

Mattress makers in Boston has 100 % talaway 2" 19 ILD, 2" 24 ILD 2" 28 ILD (all layers 100% natural talaway) but the bottom layer is 6" therafoam (poly foam) base. Has quilted cotton poly top. Only gives 10 prorated warranty…whic is much less than others.

Gardner mattress say the only use blended latex products. They use something called Talatec which is blended with synthetics (something like 55 - 45). They say synthetic part helps with durability.

One other company actually said that inner spring mattress will last longer because latex will eventually break down.

Still do not want to pay the Dolcezza price and wonder why it is all Dunlop when supposedly talaway is better?

The Natura is beginning to appeal to me more and more but I am apprehensive to go with a company that went bankrupt.

I am so looking forward to your comments on the conflicting info that I have gleaned so far. Thank you so much for just “being there.”

I remain…still undecided and increasingly frustrated…Barbara

6

One company I forgot to mention in my last note of a few minutes ago is Habitat Furnishings. I know I said I don’t prefer to buy online but if I do, they were very tempting…especially with their full refund after a year for only a $75 fee. But again…how do you compare apples with apples? When a company says they have 9" 100% talaway (3 layers) wouldn’t I have to know the exact ILD figures of each layer…and still it may not be the same as another company that gives same figures…right? What do you think about this company?

7

Hi Bobbie,

Habitat would not be one of the better options I would look at. They use good quality materials (latex) but they are certainly not in the “best value” range either in terms of cost or the options they offer. Have you read post #1 here (which is always the “best” place to start)?

A forum search on Habitat (you can just click this) will bring up much more information about them including some recent comments that may be helpful.

the ILD of latex is only a “comfort spec” and indicates the softness or firmness of the latex … it has nothing to do with quality or “value” and is irrelevant when making quality or value comparisons. With latex you make “apples to apples” comparisons by knowing the type (Talalay or Dunlop) and blend (NR, SBR, or a blend of each) of the latex. You can read more about the different types of latex in this article and in post #6 here.

Phoenix

8

Did you see the note I sent before the Habitat question? Or did you answer and I missed seeing it somewhere?

9

Hi Bobbie

I missed it … I’ll reply in this post.

This is the norm in the industry and different manufacturers may have very different ideas, beliefs, and opinions … and in many cases all of them are “partly right” and “partly wrong”. These kinds of differences between different people that I respect has often been the 'trigger" behind some of the research on the site. In many cases there is no absolute or definitive answer and working with uncertainty or with “prepronderance of the evidence” is the norm. You can see more about this in post #11 here.

There is probably some truth to this even though the amount of difference would probably be small. Unglued loose layers would be a little softer (and softness/firmness is a factor in durability) and would also have some small degree of abrasion both of which could make some difference in durability but I think any difference would be small and for me personally the benefit of loose layers and the ability of changing one of them if I needed to would outweigh the benefits … others may think differently.

Naturaworld was purchased by Spring Air Sommex so in theory they would have a warranty and there has apparently been some improvement in their deliveries but a lot of retailers have dropped them because of the many issues they had. Spring Air has also gone bankrupt in the past and there were apparently some warranty claims that were not honored with them as well. Regardless of any of this … I don’t think Natura is the best value anyway.

Organic is a certification which by itself doesn’t improve comfort and only certifies how a material was grown and produced. I do believe however that natural fibers are more breathable and moisture wicking and create a better microclimate than most synthetics (although this is a more complex topic and any generalizations would probably find exceptions in the details) and I personally would choose natural fibers or semi-synthetic fibers (such as various forms of rayon or viscose fibers) over synthetics. You can read a little more about this in post #29 here. I don’t think organic is as important as the purity and type of fiber.

Talalay (not talaway) is more consistent because of how it is made. I don’t believe Dunlop is less durable though and if it is then the point may be moot because as you can see here there are some Dunlop latex mattresses that have lasted more than 40 years. You can read more of my thoughts and some much more detailed information about the different types of latex in post #2 here and post #6 here and in post #6 here. In practical terms it would probably have more to do with the usage and many other factors and i would treat them both as very durable materials and rough “equals”.

When people talk about 100% natural latex what they normally are referring to is that the raw latex used in the foam is 100% natural and doesn’t use any synthetic latex (SBR). It’s also true that latex foam contains about 90% to 95% latex because of the other materials that are needed to foam and vulcanize and manufacture it so 100% natural latex would mean that all the latex used to make the foam was 100% natural not that the foam only contained latex.

You can also read more about the difference between natural and blended Talalay in post #2 here and in the lower ILD’s the blend would likely be more durable than the 100% natural. In the higher ILD’s then I don’t think there would be a significant difference. They both have the same Oeko-Tex standard 100 class 1 (safe for babies) certification and I would consider them both to be equally “safe”.

Talatech is just the trade name for the blended Talalay latex made by Latex International. It is 30% natural and 70% synthetic.

While a firm latex core will probably last longer than most innersprings … neither would be the weak link of a mattress. The layers that are most subject to softening and the loss of comfort and support that goes with it are the upper layers of a mattress whether the support layers are an innerspring, polyfoam, or latex.

Talalay isn’t better … it’s just different.

They do use mostly good quality materials but they are also not particularly good value compared to many other choices regardless of any warranty issues IMO.

[quote]I am so looking forward to your comments on the conflicting info that I have gleaned so far. Thank you so much for just “being there.”

I remain…still undecided and increasingly frustrated…Barbara [/quote]

Hope this helped at least to some degree. While nothing will remove all the uncertainty or conflicting opinions … this may help to clarify them to some degree and in some cases these types of comparisons aren’t that meaningful anyway because all versions of latex are high quality and durable materials regardless of their differences.

Phoenix

10

Can you give me any info on the thenaturalbedstore.com? They have a service that is good for someone like me that is afraid to buy a mattress that I haven’t tried. After 90 days, you can switch layers if you want to change the feel with no charge at all and free shipping.
They say they use only organic and 100% latex…can choose Dunlop or talalay (they do not do talalay blend) . Their Luxuriant model is 9 " of natural latex. I would probably go with firm Dunlop on bottom, medium talalay in middle and soft talalay on top. Their coverings are organic wool/cotton. Their price for a king is $3895 total (includes slated foundation).

11

Hi Bobbie,

The Natural Bed Store is the direct outlet for Land and Sky mattresses and you can see my thoughts about them in post #2 here. There is no doubt they use good quality materials and that a layer exchange is also a “value bonus” but they are in a more premium price range than other manufacturers that use the same materials.

You can also read more about the “premium” that may be attached to organic Dunlop latex vs 100% natural Dunlop latex and the other types of latex in post #6 here so you can decide if any premium attached to an organic certification is worth the higher price.

Phoenix

12

Thanks. I agree that their prices seem higher.
We are going to Worley beds and also Mattress Makers today. I’m hoping that we find one from these two stores as, I believe, you listed them both as reputable. Do you prefer one over the other? I think we are getting closer to a decision. It has been so great having you as an informant. I’ll let you know what I discover today.
Again…can’t thank you enough…Barbara

13

Hi Bobbie,

I would include both of them in your research. They will have different choices available but both of them are knowledgeable and experienced and would be good to visit IMO.

I’m looking forward to hearing about your experiences and your “discoveries”.

You are certainly looking in some “better” directions and are not being “distracted” by some of the worst choices which is always a good thing :slight_smile:

Phoenix

14

Just came back from Mattress Maker and Worley Beds. Both stores were great…friendly and informative. Mattress Makers is a huge facility. Worked with Dave. We tried one all natural Talalay (they don’t use talalay blend but I could have Dunlop if I want). Specs: 6" 36ILD, 2" 28ILD, 11/2" 20 ILD w/organic cotton cover quilt w/1" 1.5 and wool w/water fall. Actually, it was 6" 36 ILD and he brought out a 2" 28 ILD to test how er like it. It was good. Everything was 100% talalay…no blend. Price $2989. We would save about $250 - 300 if we choose Dunlop for the 6" core.
These specs seem similar to Sleep ez 10,000 series (according to Shaun)…priced a bit lower.

Have not heard back from Worley beds yet with their quote for a custom bed (similar to above). They also showed us the pure natural bliss line…both the Nature and the Pamper.

I have a general question(but not to reflect on these two stores)…how can a customer be sure what is inside the mattress and if it is a blend or all natural,etc. …especially for those that do not zip but are all sewn together.

IYO should we get it sewn, glued together or zipped? Any comments on the specs I mentioned.

15

Hi bobbie,

There are benefits for both sides. Gluing and finishing a mattress can make a little more “stable” mattress that is tighter around the foam and can shift or bunch a little less and the layers act a little less independently which can create a little firmer feeling. The sides of the cover can also be re-inforced and it may be a little stronger than a zipper cover. It may slightly increase durability “in theory” although it’s questionable whether the difference with a material like latex would be enough to make a significant difference in real life. In some cases a local manufacturer can open up the mattress and change out a layer if necessary if they leave the layers loose or at least wait with gluing until the final layering is confirmed. In some cases even the quilting and ticking can be glued to keep them from stretching over time.

Some types of mattress designs also have multiple thinner layers that use materials and components that are less “sticky” and more prone to bunching or shifting and need to be attached to each other or to an innerspring underneath them to prevent them from shifting or bunching and for these types of mattress a tape edged cover along with other construction methods such as using hog rings to tightly attach the layers to an innerspring or tufting would also be necessary for the mattress to keep its shape over time.

Component mattresses also tend to have standardized components and layer thicknesses so that individual layers or components can be more easily replaced or customized with different firmness levels and still fit inside the same thickness zip cover so there are some limitations on the number of designs and layer thicknesses that are available while finished mattresses where the layers and components inside are attached to each other have a much wider range of different design possibilities.

A zip cover with loose layers provides options that allows a customer to “fine tune” the feel or pressure relief or support of the mattress by rearranging or exchanging layers layers either initially or down the road. It also allows a single layer to be replaced if one layer softens or wears out faster than the others or if your needs or preferences change over time so you can replace an individual layer without replacing the whole mattress. Separate layers also act a little more independently and will “act” a little softer although other factors (such as ILD or layer thickness) will affect this as well. “Component” mattresses of different types are becoming more popular because of the more flexible options they make available.

Latex is very sticky so loose layers tend to stay put and if for some reason they do shift over time or because you move the mattress or put it on its side it’s an easy process to unzip the cover and “wave” the layers back into position.

If I was buying a finished mattress with no zipper I would probably choose to have them glued and if I was buying a mattress with a zip cover and I had access to the individual layers then I would choose to have them loose because of the advantages it offers.

I don’t think either is a “better or worse” choice but with a choice where everything else seemed equal I would personally lean towards more options vs the benefits that can come from gluing or finishing a mattress but of course each person may have a different preference. There is more about a finished mattress that is tape edged vs a component mattress with a zip cover in post #2 here.

I don’t believe that 'theory at a distance" is as accurate as your own personal testing so I tend to limit my comments to any “risk” or “weak links” that I see and I don’t see any in the specs you mentioned. If your more “objective” testing and best judgement in consultation with each manufacturer confirms it, then they seem very reasonable to me. They are a little thicker than the 10000 “organic” series (9.5" vs 9" of latex) and the layer thicknesses and ILD’s and components (like the quilting layer) are different so they would have differences in feel and performance to some degree (depending on your choices) but they are close enough in spite of the differences to make a reasonable or meaningful comparison between them.

The law label probably wouldn’t differentiate more than saying latex so it really boils down to the reputation and integrity of the manufacturer and trusting your best judgement about the truth of what they are telling you.

You are down to some “good options” which of course is always the best place to be :slight_smile:

Phoenix

16

Having difficulty w this reply…hope this one goes through. I am looking at the NaturalBedStore’s Luxuriant. It has 9" of talalay and the specs can be made to be almost identical to the other mattress I mentioned…only they rec breaking down the bottom layer of 6" to two 3" layers which they said would make it more durable. What do u think about that?. I like the fact that, although they are an on line company, they deliver the mattress, set it up and take away my old mattress. Price very similar to local store. I think I read some old posts about this company but could not find them. Can you direct me to them?

17

Hi Bobbie,

Did you ask them why thy thought so? I can’t think of any reason why breaking it down would make it more durable.

Outside of my earlier comments in post 11 , a forum search on Land and Sky or on Thenaturalbedstore (you can just click these) will bring up more information about them.

Phoenix

18

I have decided to go with Mattress Makers but still haven’t determined specifics. As I mentioned in past posts, what we tried out at their factory was a 6" 36 ILD talalay base. He put a 2" 28 ILD piece on top and it felt comfortable to both of us. We need to go back and try out what he has suggested as a complete bed…which is another 1 1/2 " ILD layer on top of the 2". I believe he is trying to match the Natura because we told him we found that comfortable. Also, the quilted top he recommends (reads this way…organic cotton cover quilt w/1" 1.5 and wool). Can’t tell if that is another 1" of latex or what. Will need to clarify. They do not seem to use as much wool as Natura…will that affect comfort? They only use all natural talalay…no blends.
I have been told that the 6 " core will be very durable but the upper top layers of latex may break down sooner and be too soft. For that reason, I was wondering what you think about getting the 6" firm core and perhaps 2" medium layer and then have them make a removable soft 1 1/2 " topper w the organic cotton and wool. Would that make sense?
Last question…this factory says they make a slatted wood foundation but the slats are about 41/2-5" apart. He insists that is good enough but everything I read says 3" or less apart is optimum.
Thanks…Bobbie

19

Hi Bobbie,

Most of your questions have no “absolute” or black and white answers.

That sounds to me like 1" of 1,.5 lb polyfoam and wool in the quilting.

Any change in design (less wool and more polyfoam) will affect both comfort and support as well as “feel” to some degree yes. Whether this is an improvement or not or just "equivalent depends on how it affects you in terms of PPP.

Layers closer to the surface are less durable than layers deeper in the mattress. It’'s not likely that either the 28 ILD latex or the 3t ILD base layer will be a weak link (although the 28 ILD will not last as long as the 36 ILD) but anything softer on top certainly could be (and would reduce wear on the layers below as well). Having it as a topper instead of part of the mattress would allow you to replace it without replacing the whole mattress.

As you can see in post #10 here … different manufacturers can have have widely different opinions from the “norm” about many issues and this is one of them. Rather than try and figure out who is right and who is wrong (which would take over a decade to see how the spacing was affecting your mattress) it’s usually easier to just put the different opinions in different places along the “range of risk”. I personally wouldn’t be as comfortable with gaps this wide with an all latex mattress (and neither would many other manufacturers) but others would probably be fine with it.

Phoenix

20

Almost there…but not quite.
Going to mattress makers this week to finalize our mattress(I hope). Dave knows that we liked the feel and comfort of the Natura and also Dolceza. he is putting some layers together for us to try. Of course, since it is not sewn together, etc it won’t be exact but we’ll try anyway. I have a question on the quilted cover. Many companies ( I’ll use sleepez as an example) say they use organic cotton quilted on 2oz Eco pure wool. Mattress makers uses a thin piece of fire retardant material which I said I did not want because it was not natural. They agreed to eliminate it but I would have to sign a paper that says I refuse it since it is required by law. I’m assuming they put this piece of material in because they don’t use enough wool as a natural fire retardant in their quilted top to satisfy the law. Since they are making our mattress, I would like to tell them how much and what kind of wool I would like to have for a comfortable quilted top. Can you help me with this? Does the amount of wool make it softer?
So far, I only know that the all natural Talalay layers of our mattress will be 6" 36 ILD, 2" 28 ILD and maybe 11/12 20ILD.
I am usually a good “shopper” but this mattress search has totally thrown me. It better last a long time because I have no intention of going through this again any time too soon! Thanks for your help.