stomach/side sleeper - best combo for all latex mattress

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
12

I drove down to Denver on Thursday and spent some time at Sleep Nation… It was quite easy to find after a half hour detour when I took the wrong exit when first getting into Denver. The store sells 3 latex mattresses. It took a while to get clear information on the configurations, but as I understand it, one mattress is 6" of firm natural talalay with 5" of firm natural talalay on top. The mattress is 12" thick with the cover. The cover is an organic cotton cover. I spent 1 minute on that mattress and knew right away that it was much too firm! I can’t imagine anyone sleeping on that mattress and being comfortable, but I am sure there are some people who love a firm mattress. I did not get info on the name of this mattress.

The second mattress I tried was called the Wazee Street mattress. This mattress has 6" of firm natural talalay with 5" of medium natural talalay on top. It was much more comfortable. It reminded me a lot of my tempurpedic mattress at first but I am not sure if spending hours on it would be as comfortable for me when sleeping on my side. My shoulders felt ok, but I could feel a little pressure on my hip bone.

The third mattress I tried was called the Wynkoop Street mattress. This mattress has 6" of firm natural talalay with a plush top. I was not able to get a clear answer on exactly what the make up of the 5" top layer was. I did see it unzipped and it had a 1" layer, then a 2" layer, and then another 2" layer all glued together. I think it could either all have been soft talalay, although some of that may have been a medium firm talalay. It was just called plush. I don’t understand why there would be 3 layers all glued together to make the 5" top layer. I loved the feeling of the top layer. It didn’t feel like I just sunk into it. it felt very luxurious. I could definitely feel a difference between the talalay soft layer and the dunlop soft layer that I experienced as a top layer when trying latex mattresses a few weeks ago.

I did experience a funny feeling in my lower back when on my stomach as if there was not enough support on both the medium and soft top mattresses. I think though it might have been partly because of the air mattress blow up bed that I have been sleeping on. My body is not used to sleeping on a mattress that gives at all. The funny thing is that I have no aches and pains in my back with the blow up mattress although I definitely can feel the pressure points on my shoulders and hips when on my side.

The medium mattress felt a lot like my tempurpedic mattress and I never experienced any back pain from that mattress. If it was lack of support, I should have only felt that feeling on the soft mattress. The salesperson said he did not see me making any indent in either mattress although I am not sure if that was to sell that mattress or a fact. He also said all three mattresses provide the exact same support. I am so grateful to this site because I feel that I am now much more knowledgeable than many mattress sales people and know that a soft, medium, and firm mattress will not all provide the exact same support.

When asked about the return policy, I was told that I could exchange it if I was not happy. I was also told that no one returns their mattresses because everyone is very happy with the mattress they purchase since the latex mattresses are high end mattresses. I also mentioned during my conversation that I was interested in a type of latex mattress with layers that can be rearranged. I was told that people don’t like these kind of mattresses. They move all over the place and are too difficult to switch.

The sales person also had me try out a wool mattress topper. That made the soft mattress feel a little more supportive but the mattress still had a lot of give to it. It was very comfortable. I am wondering if that would have given me a glimpse at how the wool/cotton cover from SleepEZ would feel on top. I know it would not be the same but it was the only wool experience I have felt on a mattress.

After visiting the mattress store in Denver, I am pretty much set on ordering my mattress from SleepEZ and going with the talalay for at least 2 of the 3 layers. I like that fact that I will have the option to rearrange my layers just in case the original arrangement does not work out. I also don’t think I want a 12" mattress which was the only option at Sleep Nation and the price is much better at SleepEZ. . The 12" mattress will just be heavier to deal with and I don’t think I will need the extra 3". I also like the Sleep EZ policy of being able to swap a layer - both sides if split for $30.00 and even return the mattress if it does not work out for me instead of the only option being exchanging it

I did talk to someone at FloBeds the other day just to check out more options. He was extremely helpful and I had a very nice conversation with him. However, FloBeds charges $75 for each split layer to swap, so to get an entire layer exchanged, it would cost $150. I also was not sure about the 2" convoluted top layer. If I had to rearrange a layer, that layer probably would not work out so well as a middle layer if I ended up liking the M, S, F combo instead of a S, M, F combo. The options for FloBeds would be a 9" mattress - 8" of latex with a 1" wool/cotton cover or a 12" mattress - 11" of latex with a 1" wool/cotton cover. There is no 10" mattress option.

I like the swap a layer policy better at SleepEZ. I also like the solid layer option better than the convoluted layer. I am pretty much set ordering my mattress from SleepEZ at this point. I just need a shipping date on my platform bed frame first since I don’t have a lot of room in my place and need to set up my bed before receiving boxes of latex.

My big decisions now are:

  1. 9" or 10" mattress (1 " being the cover). After trying out the latex mattresses in Denver, I am pretty much leaning towards the 10" mattress. The 5" of soft talalay - IF that was what it was, felt nice so I think a 3" layer of soft talalay would work fine… although I am still not 100% set on a soft top layer…
  2. S, M, F or M, M, F - I am leaning heavily towards the S, M. F combo - Both the S & M or M & M layers will be talalay. At least I have made that decision!
  3. Firm layer - Talalay or Dunlop? - leaning towards all talalay but this one is still a toss up!
  4. Cotton stretch cover (think that’s what it is called) or the cotton/wool cover - leaning towards the cotton/wool cover. I think only if I decided on the M, M, F combo would I consider the stretch cover.

I can’t wait to finally get my new mattress! It was 38 degress early this morning. My new down comforter is sitting in a box waiting for my new bed. I am so ready for a nice comfy bed to sleep on!.

Thanks again for all of your help! If you have any other suggestions, please let me know.

I will definitely report back once I receive my new mattress and try it out.

13

Hi suz111,

Thanks for the update and feedback :slight_smile:

They use multiple layers that get progressively firmer from top to bottom so that it has a softer surface feel but then becomes progressively firmer and more supportive as you sink in more deeply. By having smaller differences between different layers the transition between the firmness of each layer and the progression from soft to firm is less noticeable. They glue them together to help prevent any shifting.

He probably meant that the support core that provides the primary support for the mattress was the same in all three and the differences between them was in the firmness of the top 5" which would make a difference in the pressure relief and secondary support (that “fills in” the gaps in your sleeping profile).

Perhaps a glimpse. They would both have good temperature regulating properties but the wool topper you tried was probably thicker and contained more wool than the wool quilted cover in the SleepEZ mattress so it would probably feel softer. You would also feel more of the properties of the wool itself compared to a wool quilted cover that would keep you closer to the latex so that more of the “feel” of the latex underneath the wool would be noticeable.

The thickness of a mattress is really just a side effect of the design and by itself isn’t particularly meaningful (see post #2 here) although higher weight ranges will often do better with a mattress that is a little thicker than lower weight ranges.

You can see some comments about convoluted layers in general in post #2 here and about the Flobeds convoluted layer in the reply to question #4 in post #4 here.

When you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart (such as SleepEZ) who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept well on and liked that they are familiar with, any special considerations you may have, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about helping you to “match” their specific mattress designs or firmness options to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences or even to other mattresses that they are familiar with than anyone else so that in combination with your own personal testing you can make the “best possible” choice with the highest chance of success.

I’m looking forward to your next update and finding out about your final choice.

Phoenix

14

Thanks so much!! Appreciate all of the info. I definitely will post after I get my new mattress.

15

I ordered my latex mattress from SleepEZ Thursday, I ordered the 10" organic latex, split layers, all talalay… It is scheduled to arrive on Tuesday. Three more nights on that blow up mattress!! :cheer:

When I called to order the mattress, Shaun (or Shawn?), I believe the owner, answered. It was nice to get one more opinion on my areas I was still wavering on.

He said the Soft, Medium, Firm combo would be best for me because of my light weight and side/stomach sleeping, It will also give me many more options if that order (soft on top) does not work out.

He agreed that all three layers of talalay would work best for me, especially if I did end up switching the order of the layers at some point.

He also said the cotton/wool cover would definitely be best since my layers will be split.

I will report back after a few nights of sleep on my new mattress with my initial reactions.

Thanks again for all of your help, Phoenix!!

16

Hi suz111,

Thanks for letting us know what you ended up deciding … and congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

As you know I think highly of Shawn and SleepEZ and I think you made a great choice.

I’m looking forward to your comments and feedback when you’ve received it and have had the change to sleep on it for a bit.

Phoenix

17

I just ordered basically the same mattress from SleepEZ - soft/med/firm, all talalay. Only difference is I went with blended talalay for the durability factor. Mine is to arrive Thursday, and I am anxiously waiting to see if I made the right choice. Good luck to us both! :slight_smile:

18

Late Tuesday afternoon my new mattress from SleepEZ arrived in two boxes. It took me almost an hour to assemble the mattress. The mattress layers were well packed in the boxes with challenging staples to remove (which took up probably 20 minutes of my assemble time). I opened the box with the firm layers first, knowing that the mattress cover would also be in that box, I did not realize that both halves of the firm layer would already be placed inside the mattress cover. I tried to lift the cover with the two halves onto my bed frame but it was not going to happen for me. I probably could have slid it across, but I placed my mattress encasement cover on top of the slats, figuring it would be a lot easier to place the mattress cover on top rather than lifting the entire mattress after it was assembled. This did present an extra challenge throughout the assembly procedure but it did work out in the end.

Once I finally got the two half firm layers aligned inside the mattress cover, I opened up the second box. All six of the half layers (2 firm/2 medium/2 soft) were easy to lift on their own. The medium layers were easy to align and put on top of the firm layers. The soft layers were a little more challenging as it was tricky zipping up the cover with the corners of the mattress cover round and the layers in rectangle shapes (if that makes sense). I also did not have them perfectly aligned and needed to reopen the cover after I noticed some bumps by the edge of the cover. BUT after almost an hour the mattress was assembled! Because of the faint smell of the latex, I unzipped the cover and left it open until later on that evening.

My mattress felt SO comfortable as soon as I climbed into bed! It did not feel like any of the other mattresses I tried out. It is perfect for me! It is not too squishy and it provides plenty of support when I sleep on my stomach. If I had to compare it to one mattress I tried out, I think it feels most like the medium over firm mattress I tried out at the store in Denver but when on my side, there are no pressure points. I think the mattress cover and my mattress encasement help provide a bit more support than if I was right on top of the soft layer. It almost feels like my tempurpedic mattress I had in Hawaii as far as the amount of softness and the support. I cannot feel any split in the layers and I am glad I decided on the wool cover. It helps keep me a bit warmer on the cool evenings here in Colorado.

I did not reply sooner though because Wednesday morning, I woke up with a mean migraine. I hoped it was not from the mattress. It could have been from the faint smell of the latex or from the change from 12 weeks on a blow up air mattress to the my new latex mattress. I am very sensitive to smells and was hoping the smell of the latex would not bother me too much. It is not a terrible smell, but just the same, it could have affected me.I opened up the cover of my mattress and kept both of my windows wide open all day to let the mattress air out, hoping that the smell would diminish.

Thursday morning, I woke with another migraine. This time, it was not as bad. I could still smell the latex and again was not sure of the cause but hoped it was not my mattress. I aired my mattress out all day again. Friday, another migraine. I was starting to become a little discouraged but kept the faith, hoping this would not continue as I love the feeling of the mattress. It is so comfortable!

Saturday … no more migraines! :slight_smile: It was either some sort of adjustment period or just luck that I experienced three mornings of migraines right when I started sleeping on my new mattress.

I am very grateful to this forum, to Phoenix providing a wealth of information, to SleepEZ for the wonderful mattress, to Abundant Earth for getting my bed frame delivered so quickly, and to Pacific Rim for a great supportive bed frame. I am so grateful to have found the most comfortable mattress to sleep on every night for many years to come! :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Sekhmet, I hope you find the same luck I did with your new mattress!!

19

Hi suz111,

Thanks for taking the time to share your comments and feedback about your new SleepEZ mattress … I appreciate it :slight_smile:

You probably “struggled” a little more with the assembly than most people (there is more information and videos about assembling a component latex mattress in the videos in post #12 here) and on the SleepEZ’s page with assembly instructions here. It also sounds like you were doing the assembly by yourself which can be a little more difficult.

I don’t know why you were experiencing a migraine (although it’s very unlikely that they would be connected to an all latex mattress) but it’s great to hear that once they disappeared that the mattress itself was a good match for you in terms of comfort and PPP.

I’m looking forward to any additional comments or feedback you have the chance to share once you’ve had the chance to sleep on it for a little longer as well.

Phoenix

20

It is often a puzzle why I get a migraine. I have had them most of my life, although they have occurred much more infrequently lately… I can’t say for sure if they were due to the new mattress or not but three mornings in a row when waking up made me suspect it had something to do with the new mattress. I am still suspecting it was from the smell. I am extremely sensitive to smells and knew this might be an issue when my mattress first arrived. I have my two free pillows out in my storage closet airing out. They are pretty thick and I use a very flat custom made down pillow, so I will either use them for my couch in the living room or as “pretty pillows” on my bed once they stop smelling. The latex smell of the pillows was much stronger.

Yes, I assembled it by myself. I am sure if I had a second person helping me, it would have gone much faster. I did watch many videos in advance. It just took me a while to open the boxes and cut open each wrapped up parcel. I forgot to add that both the two split medium and soft layers were all wrapped up together. I also was extremely careful when unwrapping them and moving them to onto my bed so that I would not rip any of the latex.

Again, I LOVE my new mattress!! I will definitely check back in in a month or two to update once again with any further feedback. I was a little nervous ordering online and friends thought I was a little crazy doing this, but for me it worked out perfectly! Thanks again!!

21

I have now slept on my new latex mattress for a couple of days short of 5 weeks. It is the most comfortable mattress I have ever slept on in my entire life! I am so happy with my decision to take the leap and purchase a latex mattress online. I want to thank Phoenix, this website, and also SleepEZ for helping me make my decision. I am glad I went with the soft, medium, firm instead of medium, medium, firm for the layer configuration. I am very happy with the talalay as the type of latex for all three layers. I am also very glad that I decided to go with the wool cover. I am in love!! Thank you!!

22

Hi suz111,

Thanks once again for taking the time to share another update … I appreciate it.

It’s great to hear that your choice worked out so well for you and now that you are past the break in and adjustment period you should be sleeping well on your mattress for many years :slight_smile:

Phoenix

23

I’m not sure if this is the right place for this but…
About 6 months ago I bought 3 3" queen Dunlop latex layers from SleepOnLatex. They seem to be high quality, no complaints there. I chose a firm, medium, and soft. I assembled them in that order with the firm on bottom, of course, and gave it a whirl.
I am a big guy, 250lbs, muscular, broad shoulders, not overweight, I workout pretty often. I slept on my stomach my whole life, until about 8-9 years ago, when i changed to my side. in the last 3-4 years, i’ve struggled with upper back pain and have had trouble getting a while night’s rest because of it. This pain is the reason i started looking into latex and mattresses in the first place.
I believe that my shoulders, when i’m laying on my side, are being pushed together and causing this pain. I think the shoulder that is not against the mattress is tending to fall, gravity is pulling it down, and i am kindof “hunching” during sleep and it strains muscles around my spine and leading to a deep soreness. My shoulders are muscular and very heavy. To address this, i turn onto my back to relieve the pain around my spine, but then my lower back becomes sore after awhile.
I switched the soft and medium layers, with the soft in the middle and medium on top, and have been sleeping on that for awhile now. I think it helped, but the pain is still pretty intense.
I feel like the mattress is too firm and does not allow my shoulder to sink in enough, but if i make it too soft then my hips will not be supported.
I’m thinking about getting another latex layer, a medium. What do you think? Do you think another 3" topper will allow more room for my shoulder to sink into and relieve the pain? Have any of you experienced this spinal soreness in your upper back?

Thanks for any insight you provide!

24

SaintLouisSleeper wrote:

Two easy and inexpensive things I would tell you to consider before making layer changes:

  1. Reevaluate your pillow. Make sure it is thick enough when you are on your side to maintain a decent alignment and make sure that if you roll to your stomach that you are not using that thick pillow.
  2. Change the way you sleep on your side. Try placing a large pillow behind your shoulders/upper thoracic area to allow you to slightly lean back against it when you are on your side. This takes some of the stress off of the shoulder joint against the mattress and also allows for some support for the shoulder not against the mattress. Additionally, try “hugging” a pillow in front of you when sleeping on your side. This can help to take some of the stress off of the shoulder that is against the mattress, and also helps to support the shoulder that is not against the mattress. You didn’t mention how you position your arm that is against the mattress. If you find “hugging” the pillow top be uncomfortable, I would still tell you to place a pillow in front of you and use it for a ledge upon which you may place your free arm that is not against the mattress. This will allow for extra support and take some of the stress off of this area and the upper thoracic region.

Having a mesomorph somatotype creates specific conditions that often require unique solutions. Highly trained athletes are often some of the most susceptible to waking up with issues, as their bodies are frequently placed under extremely heavy loads and vulnerable to alignment problems.

As a former athlete/coach who trained the back region with extreme intensity, these techniques worked well for me, regardless of the mattress I used. I will mention one other thing that has personally provided me tremendous relief, and that was using a power foundation under my latex mattress. By slightly raising the feet and slightly raising the head elevation, I was able to create a bit of an area for my hips to “sink in”, and then the slight elevation took a bit of stress off of my shoulder area. Please note - this worked for me and I don’t recommend that you run out and purchase a power base. I would tell you to investigate the first two things I mentioned previously. I just wish to point out that by making subtle variances in the direction that gravity “pulls” on us, we can dramatically improve our sleep and restoration. And of course, you always have the option of changing out your foam layers.

Good luck!

25

Hi SaintLouisSleeper,

I switched your post to a new topic of its own.

While it’s not possible to “diagnose” mattress comfort issues on a forum with any certainty because there are too many unique unknowns and variables involved that can affect how each person sleeps on a mattress in terms of PPP or any “symptoms” they experience … there is more about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here.

There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.

These posts are the “tools” that can help with the analysis, detective work, or trial and error that may be necessary to help you learn your body’s language and “translate” what your body is trying to tell you so you can identify the types of changes that have the best chance of reducing or eliminating any “symptoms” you are experiencing (at least to the degree that any symptoms are from your mattress rather than the result of any pre-existing issues you may have that aren’t connected to a mattress).

Overall (and not surprisingly since he is an expert in these types of issues) I would agree that Jeff’s suggestions would be the first place I would start to see if they can help solve the issues and “symptoms” you are experiencing.

While your own personal experience is really the only way to know whether an extra layer will be helpful … there is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here. “In theory” it could be helpful but I would try some of Jeff’s suggestions first.

Various zoning systems can also be very useful and worth considering for people who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to “match” to a mattress, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here.

Phoenix

26

[quote=“SaintLouisSleeper” post=58320]
I switched the soft and medium layers, with the soft in the middle and medium on top, and have been sleeping on that for awhile now. I think it helped, but the pain is still pretty intense.
I feel like the mattress is too firm and does not allow my shoulder to sink in enough, but if i make it too soft then my hips will not be supported. [/quote]

To add onto the zoning idea, if your case is zippered, you could make your own zoned mattress from the latex you have.

Horizontally cut both your soft and medium layers at waist height for you: lie on the latex and put a dot of permanent marker on the latex between your hips and shoulders where you need the least bodily support and would notice two different firmnesses of latex the least. Draw your cut line at the dot for both pieces. You do want the cut on each piece to be in as much as the same spot as possible.

Then take half of the medium and put it on top of the latex stack, under your hips with the soft underneath it and place the smaller half of the soft under your shoulders with the medium underneath it. I say smaller half because for most of us, our waist up sleeps on a smaller bit of a mattress than our legs down do.

While it would cost you the time to cut the latex, if the new configuration doesn’t work for you, you aren’t out the cost of a new mattress. In fact, you could go back to your previous mattress configuration, just by putting the pieces back in their right order.

Your sleeping situation is not uncommon. This is one solution that some have tried.

27

Update:
First off, thank you all for your thoughtful responses. This is a valuable resource to be able to confide in and receive expert feedback!
To summarize my issue, my 3 layered Dunlop topper configuration of firm on bottom, medium in the middle, and soft on top was causing excruciating upper back pain between my shoulder blades, while side sleeping, and lower back pain while sleeping on my back.
After reading a post that Phoenix shared, regarding spinal alignment and mattress density, I thought my 250lbs to be too heavy for such a soft bed, that I needed a firmer mattress, that my hips were sinking too far causing stress on my spine.
To test this, I left the firm on bottom, folded the medium over onto itself lengthwise, and completely removed the soft. This essentially allowed me to experience a firm on bottom and two medium layers on top, without having to commit to buying a potentially unnecessary layer. This configuration caused the same pain, no relief.
I then returned the medium back to normal and put the soft back on top, this time folding the soft lengthwise on top. So I had a firm on bottom, medium in the middle, and two soft layers on top, all 3 inch Dunlop layers. SWEET RELIEF!!! Like a light switch, all my troubles floated away! I’m in heaven now, all that money spent on latex has finally paid off.
I now plan to buy a soft talalay layer to put on top. My back pain was from a mattress that was too firm. If you have pain as I’ve described, it MAY be because your mattress is too firm. I should say now, that I was convinced that it was the opposite. I almost purchased another firm layer, convinced that my hips were sinking. Boy was I wrong! Keep in mind that I am a muscular 250lbs with broad shoulders and a little but of a gut.
If you spent a lot of money on latex and feel frustrated, know that all is not lost.
Thanks again guys!

28

Glad you updated your post because it pushed it up to the top so I was able to see it. I have the same issues as you, and am of similar build (6’1", 260lbs, muscular w/ a little gut). I am going to look into this solution. Just wanted to say thanks for the update.

29

Hi SaintLouisSleeper,

That’s great news … and thanks for sharing the results of your trial and error on different layering arrangements on the forum. I appreciate it :slight_smile:

With your broad shoulders it makes sense that you would need some additional softness so your shoulders can sink in a little more.

My only caution with your plan is that it may be worth considering a soft Dunlop layer that is the same as your current soft layer instead of Talalay since that is the specific layering combination that seemed to work well for you.

Phoenix

30

Phoenix, this is actually a real concern of mine as well. I just placed an order for 3" soft talalay because Graig (or Gary?) over at sleeponlatex recommended it, after I explained my situation. Since placing the order I’ve been thinking that I should really just keep what is working, after my experiment, that I should get soft Dunlop instead.
I do have a few days to change the order.
My logic is this:
I’ve been sleeping on toppers that are NOT encased in any type of mattress zip cover or anything. Just bare latex toppers on a slatted platform bed with sheets and a polyester blanket. I can feel the latex in high fidelity. I just ordered a high quality juma wool and bamboo zippered mattress encasement along with the talalay, to protect the layers. I expect that the soft talalay will be softer than the soft Dunlop, but I also expect the wool encasement will firm it up a little. I’m not sure if this is right and I hope someone will weigh in on this.
Also, I’m curious if a medium talalay is similar in feel to a soft dunlop. I can keep the soft talalay order, or change it to soft Dunlop, or I’m kind of considering changing it to a medium talalay.
What do you think?

31

Hi SaintLouisSleeper,

Every layer and component in a mattress (including the cover) will have an effect on the feel and performance of every other layer and component above and below it so there is no way for me to know which combination of layers will work best for you … especially when you are adding another variable (the mattress cover).

There is more about some of the differences between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here. If both layers are the same thickness and in the same position in the mattress and their ILD was measured in the same way (which isn’t always the case … see post #6 here) then for most (but not all) people a “one step” firmness difference where the Talalay was in the range of about 4 - 5 ILD firmer than the Dunlop would probably feel like they have a similar firmness although they would still “feel” different.

There is also more about the pros and cons of a wool quilted cover vs a more stretchy knit cover in post #6 here.

While I can give you more information about the pros and cons of different options … the only way to know whether any combination of materials and components will be a good “match” for you in terms of PPP will be based on your own personal experience.

My comments were based on the premise that it’s hard to argue with success :).

Phoenix