Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hello TMU,

I’m sure you get alot of requests like these, but I’m desperate. I barely pass 3-4 hours of sleep anymore due to lower back pain.

Sleeper #1 - 6’2" BMI 23 (somewhat lanky build, bony hips and shoulders, lots of back pain)
Sleeper #2 - 5"1 BMI 31 (Sleeps well on most anything unless it’s super firm)
Old bed: Mattress & Box Spring Sets - Orthopedic EuroTop Mattress Set - 10 years old. Feels like comfort layer has deteriorated beyond use. Hips sink straight to coils.

To make a long story short, we replaced our mattress with a prebuilt (3" firm Dunlop, 3" medium Dunlop, 1" foam w/ horizontally quilted wool/cotton cover) and couldn’t stand it. It was way too hard and I had back pain within 2 hours of sleeping on it. We added a 3" soft Talalay topper to it and it improved, but I think the quilted cover is the problem at this point because there is a clear feeling of bottoming out the soft layer. #1 still has severe lower back pain(feels like hammocking), #2 says it’s good.

Our plan is to return this mattress to build out our own DIY with a stretch cotton cover, but I can’t decide on what layers to go with. I initially was going to do a simple 3S + 3M + 3F build but there isn’t much room for adjustment so I think we’ve settled on starting with a 10" and possibly going to a 12".

Here is the rough idea for our build:

I’m not really sure if I should stick to the base build or if either of my “Option 2s” are would be better options because the soft to med layer jump seems high at 20->34. The LMF 28ILD Med might be a “better” more gradual increase in firmness over the SOL 34.
Also not sure of other vendors to explore, SOL has great prices and policies, but their firmness levels are a bit higher than others. I’m also concerned that if I need to exchange something or swap a layer, LMF’s once a year policy will bite me if I need to exchange anything.

Could really use some all around advice.

2

i’m 6’1 normal BMI. For what it’s worth i had the following experienece:

  1. 3" 19ild Tal / 3" 28ild Tal / 3" 36ild Dunlop
    19ild talalay on top was too soft to support my lumbar when sleeping on my back. On my side I went through the 19ild and got shoulder pressure from the firmer layers below.

  2. 3" 28ild Tal \ 3" 19ild Tal \ 36ild Dunlop
    28ild Talalay on top is a little too firm when on my back but I can deal with it with the right pillow. Feels fine on my side.

  3. 3" 28ild Tal \ 3" 19ild Tal \ 3" 32 ild Dun \ 3" 36ild Dun
    too soft for proper support

  4. 3" 19 ild tal \ 3" 28 ild\ 3" 28ild Tal \ 3" 36ild Dun
    just a bit too soft to support my lumbar area but surprisingly it was better than setup #3. Felt fine on my side.

I am waiting to receive 3" 24ild blended talalay in the hope it will be a middle ground between setup #1 and #2.

AZ Premium Mattress offers 24ild blended talalay or you can special order from Flexus Comfort. You could also try Sleep EZ to see if they will special order. Foam Sweet Foam carries 23ild dunlop as well. Best reutrn policy would be ordering a complete mattress so you can take advantage of the options for layer exchange or a complete return, minus a small fee.

3

Its honestly hard for me to tell exactly what my body is doing.

In a picture, it looks like my upper torso isn’t sinking in enough, but by feel, I feel like my hips don’t sink in enough with our current setup.

I think what we’re going to do is to try the following:

#1 3" 19ILD Talalay
#2 3" 28ILD Dunlop ( or Talalay, not sure but leaning towards dunlop)
#3 2" 38ILD Dunlop

From there we plan to add layers in 1" or 2" increments to fine tune the feel since we have a non-returnable 19ILD Talalay topper. Personally I think it’s not soft enough(either by ILD or thickness), but I just don’t really know. The prebuilt quilted 28/38 was excruciatingly firm and even my wife complained about how hard it was. I think that half the problem is that the prebuilt mattress uses a quilted cover and we can’t tell how much that is changing the feel of the 3" 28 and 38 layers. Thus starting with a basic build and tuning from there. I picked the 2" firm layer because it seems that we like softer mattresses and a 1" 34ILD transition layer might fit in nicely there.

4

Hi nick7790,

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

Chiming in your discussion for a moment. Sorry to hear about the lack of sleep due to lower back pains. Hopefully, it’s not a chronic medical condition but just an unsuitable mattress.

It looks you’ve been “past due” with changing your “deteriorating” OM mattress which means that your body would need a larger period to unlearn any of the compensating habits created in the process of adapting to an unsuitable sleeping surface in order to allow you getting much-needed rest. It would be helpful to know how long ago the first signs of deterioration showed up and also when you started experiencing back pains on the OM mattress. What was your sleep pattern during that time? How often did you use to wake up during the night? This can be a good indication of the length of time your body would need to adjust to a new sleeping system.

DIY can be a bit challenging and it may require some trial and error and perhaps additional expenses as you can see from lantern71’s DIY experiences.
In your comparisons, I wouldn’t focus too much on the ILD numbers alone unless the latex layers and type of latex are exactly the same and come from the same latex manufacturer (which yours are not). Answers to ILD questions may be a little bit more complex but if you’d like to dive in a little deeper you can peruse the topic titled Likelihood same Dunlop product is labeled differently (by ILD and "firmness") …
ILD is only one of several variables or “specs” that will determine how soft or firm an individual layer or a mattress “as a whole” will feel to different people (see post #4 here ). In addition to this, the ILD of different materials or different types and blends of latex also aren’t always directly comparable to each other (see post #6 here )

Looking at your initial options….I am glad you discarded them. 5” soft comfort layers on top of a 3” transition layer may be problematic for a 23 BMI “bony and lanky build” side sleeper #1. This is especially true for back or front sleepers but depending on your skeletal structure probably also for side sleepers like you. So I’d be concerned about your spinal alignment which can be easily forgotten after your experience on a hard mattress. On your side … your spine should be relatively straight (like it is when you look at someone from behind) and your body profile along the side of your body should be similar to your standing position (shoulders and hips in roughly the same relative position). You may want to revisit the article on sleeping style, preferences, and statistics

As far as your last train of thoughts for the revised option, you are moving in the right direction but I’d increase the support layer thickness by an inch or so because thicker mattresses are more adaptable and will “act” softer for most people. It will compress from softer to firmer more gradually which means that there is more “range” of compression without the mattress becoming too firm for heavier weights or parts of the body (also with sleeper #2 in mind).

I’d step a little back and not rush to one option or another for a little longer until you’ve got the chance to peruse some of the links above and listen to the subtle cues from your body as you try to find your way through the DIY. Hopefully, you can still experiment with the layers you already have and collect more data points. The aim is to get the construction that has the best chance of being a good match both for both comfort and support needs. If it is a bit firmer you can always fine-tune it with a thin toper but once the mattress is too soft you won’t be able to easily fix it without replacing some layers. Are the 3" firm Dunlop, 3" medium Dunlop, layers from your 7” mattress in a zippered cover so that you can do some testing with putting the Talalay topper on the bare Dunlop layers?

Phoenix

5

Hi Phoenix and thank you for the reply!

I have been doing more thinking lately and have since modified how I was going to start.

[quote=“phoenix post=90304”]Hi nick7790,

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

Chiming in your discussion for a moment. Sorry to hear about the lack of sleep due to lower back pains. Hopefully, it’s not a chronic medical condition but just an unsuitable mattress.

It looks you’ve been “past due” with changing your “deteriorating” OM mattress which means that your body would need a larger period to unlearn any of the compensating habits created in the process of adapting to an unsuitable sleeping surface in order to allow you getting much-needed rest. It would be helpful to know how long ago the first signs of deterioration showed up and also when you started experiencing back pains on the OM mattress. What was your sleep pattern during that time? How often did you use to wake up during the night? This can be a good indication of the length of time your body would need to adjust to a new sleeping system. [/quote]

I would say that the pain started low frequency about 8 months ago, progressively increasing to daily within a month of us buying the new mattress. We had a baby late last year so we have just been getting up alot period, not necessarily from the bed. When she did sleep through the night, we do toss and turn quite a bit from discomfort. I would say in the last 4 months it got significantly worse.

[quote=“phoenix post=90304”]
DIY can be a bit challenging and it may require some trial and error and perhaps additional expenses as you can see from lantern71’s DIY experiences.
In your comparisons, I wouldn’t focus too much on the ILD numbers alone unless the latex layers and type of latex are exactly the same and come from the same latex manufacturer (which yours are not). Answers to ILD questions may be a little bit more complex but if you’d like to dive in a little deeper you can peruse the topic titled Likelihood same Dunlop product is labeled differently (by ILD and "firmness") …
ILD is only one of several variables or “specs” that will determine how soft or firm an individual layer or a mattress “as a whole” will feel to different people (see post #4 here ). In addition to this, the ILD of different materials or different types and blends of latex also aren’t always directly comparable to each other (see post #6 here )

Looking at your initial options….I am glad you discarded them. 5” soft comfort layers on top of a 3” transition layer may be problematic for a 23 BMI “bony and lanky build” side sleeper #1. This is especially true for back or front sleepers but depending on your skeletal structure probably also for side sleepers like you. So I’d be concerned about your spinal alignment which can be easily forgotten after your experience on a hard mattress. On your side … your spine should be relatively straight (like it is when you look at someone from behind) and your body profile along the side of your body should be similar to your standing position (shoulders and hips in roughly the same relative position). You may want to revisit the article on sleeping style, preferences, and statistics

As far as your last train of thoughts for the revised option, you are moving in the right direction but I’d increase the support layer thickness by an inch or so because thicker mattresses are more adaptable and will “act” softer for most people. It will compress from softer to firmer more gradually which means that there is more “range” of compression without the mattress becoming too firm for heavier weights or parts of the body (also with sleeper #2 in mind). [/quote]

I’m just a bit worried about making it too firm with 3" 38ILD and wasting money on a thicker firm support layer that we may or may not need. I don’t know what we need though, but everything just feels like we want softer from our current setup. The hard part is figuring out if it’s the quilted topper (non-zip) making things too firm. Either way though, the vendors here are the experts with MUCH more experienced than I with these mattresses so if you’re thinking a 3" support layer is key, I don’t have any reason to throw that out, a few other posters on other forums recommended a 9" starter build too. Mayne the 9" is the way to go to start out and then If need be add a 1" 24ILD or 34ILD transition layer somewhere in the stack. I’ll blame my ocd on wanting an even numbered height.

[quote=“phoenix post=90304”]
I’d step a little back and not rush to one option or another for a little longer until you’ve got the chance to peruse some of the links above and listen to the subtle cues from your body as you try to find your way through the DIY. Hopefully, you can still experiment with the layers you already have and collect more data points. The aim is to get the construction that has the best chance of being a good match both for both comfort and support needs. If it is a bit firmer you can always fine-tune it with a thin toper but once the mattress is too soft you won’t be able to easily fix it without replacing some layers. Are the 3" firm Dunlop, 3" medium Dunlop, layers from your 7” mattress in a zippered cover so that you can do some testing with putting the Talalay topper on the bare Dunlop layers?

Phoenix[/quote]

Unfortunately the current mattress is a sealed unit.
I have been doing more thinking lately and have since modified how I was going to start to be a bit more conservative (which may or may not be a good thing). You wouldn’t think that reducing the support layer to a 2" firm base layer would make it potentially softer due to less total compression. I also will be reading over the links you provided as I want to do my best to make a good pick the first time if possible.

6

3" of 38ILD is softer than 2" of 38ILD

7

We are close in size so maybe the following will be helpful but everyone has different needs so take it with a spoon full of salt.

28/38 dunlop is relatively firm at your size. I am not surprised you characterized it as hard. 19ild talalay is relatively soft and will feel softer as a topper compared to when it is encased in a cover. Based on your comments about hammocking, bottoming out, and 19ild not feeling soft enough, I would hazard a guess that you are pushing right through the soft 19ild and your shoulder and/or hips are running aground on the firmer dunlop below. This was my personal experience.

Switching to a stretch cotton cover that encases everything will likely make the 19ild layer feel a little bit firmer/more substantial and possibly allow you to sink into the intermediate layer a little more. However, it is also possible that the change will not be great enough to remedy your current problem.

Another potential fix is a firmer comfort (top) layer. The goal is to get something that is soft enough to relieve pressure points, but not so soft that you go right through it.

Be aware that thicker does not always mean better. Ideally the comfort and intermediate layers are just thick enough to provide pressure relief. As phoenix pointed out, the further you get from the support layer, the more likely you are to have alignment issues.

Also be aware that most latex comes in 2" or 3" thicknesses. The 1" offerings from SOL are unusual.

  1. Reverse layering.
8

[quote=“lantern71 post=90376”][quote=“nick7790 post=90316”]

I’m just a bit worried about making it too firm with 3" 38ILD and wasting money on a thicker firm support layer that we may or may not need. I don’t know what we need though, but everything just feels like we want softer from our current setup. The hard part is figuring out if it’s the quilted topper (non-zip) making things too firm. Either way though, the vendors here are the experts with MUCH more experienced than I with these mattresses so if you’re thinking a 3" support layer is key, I don’t have any reason to throw that out, a few other posters on other forums recommended a 9" starter build too. Mayne the 9" is the way to go to start out and then If need be add a 1" 24ILD or 34ILD transition layer somewhere in the stack. I’ll blame my ocd on wanting an even numbered height.

[/quote]

We are close in size so maybe the following will be helpful but everyone has different needs so take it with a spoon full of salt.

28/38 dunlop is relatively firm at your size. I am not surprised you characterized it as hard. 19ild talalay is relatively soft and will feel softer as a topper compared to when it is encased in a cover. Based on your comments about hammocking, bottoming out, and 19ild not feeling soft enough, I would hazard a guess that you are pushing right through the soft 19ild and your shoulder and/or hips are running aground on the firmer dunlop below. This was my personal experience.

Switching to a stretch cotton cover that encases everything will likely make the 19ild layer feel a little bit firmer/more substantial and possibly allow you to sink into the intermediate layer a little more. However, it is also possible that the change will not be great enough to remedy your current problem.

Another potential fix is a firmer comfort (top) layer. The goal is to get something that is soft enough to relieve pressure points, but not so soft that you go right through it.

Be aware that thicker does not always mean better. Ideally the comfort and intermediate layers are just thick enough to provide pressure relief. As phoenix pointed out, the further you get from the support layer, the more likely you are to have alignment issues.

Also be aware that most latex comes in 2" or 3" thicknesses. The 1" offerings from SOL are unusual.
.[/quote]

You might be right, it’s just hard to say with my current setup. I’m limited to what I can test/feel, but even then it’s not the same as if it was a solid 9" stack in a stretch cotton cover. The prebuilt mattress quilted cotton/foam/wool cover could easily be making the bed much more firm than the raw slabs. It could be mimicking a 19ILD Talalay on a 38/45 or something from that factory cover.

I’m still leaning towards starting with a 9" 19+28+38, but I might also call around and look for a ~24ILD mid layer. That would at least give me the option of trying a 24D or a 19T on top. The alternative would be to buy a Talalay mid layer which should feel softer, but might let me sink in too much. SOL also sells 1" dunlop slabs in 20/34/46, so maybe an additional soft inch would make a difference?

It’s frustrating trying to make a plan because so many things might not work out right. I don’t like wasting money, but am willing to do a few layer swaps/tests to get the feel right. The key for now if trying to figure out what I want my first order to be. Cost wise, I’ve only really looked at SOL and LMF because most other vendors seem to have at least a $50+ markup on latex, but if a 24ILD is available for just a bit more, that might be worth checking into. DIYNaturalBedding has a Medium: 23-27 ILD, D75, but it’s $450/~$200 more than other options. Granted, sleep is worth the cost, I just don’t want to get stuck with a slab I don’t really like or get buried in shipping costs.

I appreciate all the considerations and thoughts you’ve given me though, its definitely appreciated.

9

[quote=“nick7790 post=90381”]

You might be right, it’s just hard to say with my current setup. I’m limited to what I can test/feel, but even then it’s not the same as if it was a solid 9" stack in a stretch cotton cover. The prebuilt mattress quilted cotton/foam/wool cover could easily be making the bed much more firm than the raw slabs. It could be mimicking a 19ILD Talalay on a 38/45 or something from that factory cover.

I’m still leaning towards starting with a 9" 19+28+38, but I might also call around and look for a ~24ILD mid layer. That would at least give me the option of trying a 24D or a 19T on top. The alternative would be to buy a Talalay mid layer which should feel softer, but might let me sink in too much. SOL also sells 1" dunlop slabs in 20/34/46, so maybe an additional soft inch would make a difference?

It’s frustrating trying to make a plan because so many things might not work out right. I don’t like wasting money, but am willing to do a few layer swaps/tests to get the feel right. The key for now if trying to figure out what I want my first order to be. Cost wise, I’ve only really looked at SOL and LMF because most other vendors seem to have at least a $50+ markup on latex, but if a 24ILD is available for just a bit more, that might be worth checking into. DIYNaturalBedding has a Medium: 23-27 ILD, D75, but it’s $450/~$200 more than other options. Granted, sleep is worth the cost, I just don’t want to get stuck with a slab I don’t really like or get buried in shipping costs.

I appreciate all the considerations and thoughts you’ve given me though, its definitely appreciated.[/quote]

I understand your frustration with having too many options. I was able to test product at several stores and I still got the combination wrong a couple times. Unfortunately it takes some trial and error to develop a baseline. I will echo Phoenix’s warning about focusing too much on ILD numbers but maybe the feedback will help narrow down your many choices.

You did not mention the brand of latex mattress you currently have and I am unclear what the quilting in actually made of. Regardless, I am not sure the difference in feel is as extreme as 38/45. That’s a jump.

Starting with a 9” 19/28/38 is a decent idea. You can evaluate the effect of the cover and you probably won’t have to worry about swapping the base layer, as that is a logical choice for your size.

If 19ild does not work out on top, something in the range of 22-25 seems like a likely alternative.

Be careful about going softer for the intermediate layer. I could see moving to a 28 talalay but I would start to worry about alignment issues with something softer. It’s also a concern for your partner since their BMI is higher An exception would be reverse layering where you put a firmer layer on top and a softer layer. The result is a top layer that is more supportive while the softer intermediate layer still allows for contouring. Reverse layering improved my situation but I still prefer a configuration with softer latex on top.

Generally speaking, adding/subtracting 1” of latex will have a small impact, 2” is more noticeable, and 3” is a significant change. You might add/sub 1” directly above or below your top layer to fine tune but the closer you get to the base, the less you will notice a difference.

Depending on your location, you might consider traveling to one of the vendors to do in person testing. Preferably you pick one with the greatest number of ild’s, latex types, and thicknesses available onsite. It could save you time, money, and frustration but you also never really know if something works until you try it overnight

Latex from DIYNaturalBedding has a greater price premium because it has an organic certification. Practically speaking, I’m not sure what that does for you. You might check out their Knit Ticking though. That cover has no quilting which minimizes the amount of material between you and the latex. You will also find a price premium for 100% natural talalay over blended. You can read about the pros/cons herehere in post #6 but from everything I’ve tried in person and read on the forum, the practical differences are small. Natural and Synthetic dunlop tend to be closer in price.

10

I didn’t realize I never mentioned the mattress name. It’s a SleepEZ Roma.

Maybe you’re right about the mid layer. Like I said, I’m just trying to get my first order as close as I think I can get. If I return the Roma I can’t do any layer exchanges from SleepEZ/LatexMattressFactory unless I wait a year and then purchase the layers. So I either take a $250 chance with the LMF 28ILD mid knowing I’m stuck with it if it isn’t right, or I “invest” in the $500 DIYNB 28-33ILD mid, knowing that I can at least swap it out if I need to for $80. DIYNB is the only reputable place I see that actively carries a ~25ILD layer, so there really aren’t any alternatives.

I do sink adequately into the 19ILD layer but it feels “right” if that makes sense. My knees hardly sink in at all, but my hips and side do nicely. I used to sleep with my arm mostly under me, but I now roll my shoulder forward a bit with my arm out front and that made a big difference. I THINK I want just a tiny bit more sink in and I would be 99% of the way there but I’m not really sure. Again though, the cover might be making the mid layer firmer than it should be, so a “clean” DIY stack with the same ILD layers and a stretch cover might be perfect. all I can say is that the Roma by itself on the 28ILD side was excruciating after 2 hours, adding the 3" 19ILD T layer was a definite improvement, but still not right.

One thing I’m having trouble grasping is whether the top layer or mid layer should be adjusted.

Side question: Are 12" (4x3") stacks generally overkill? (that would at least make me feel better if I needed to buy an 4th layer. Even if it was something like ~25+19+28+38)

11

[quote=“nick7790 post=90394”]I didn’t realize I never mentioned the mattress name. It’s a SleepEZ Roma.

Maybe you’re right about the mid layer. Like I said, I’m just trying to get my first order as close as I think I can get. If I return the Roma I can’t do any layer exchanges from SleepEZ/LatexMattressFactory unless I wait a year and then purchase the layers. So I either take a $250 chance with the LMF 28ILD mid knowing I’m stuck with it if it isn’t right, or I “invest” in the $500 DIYNB 28-33ILD mid, knowing that I can at least swap it out if I need to for $80. DIYNB is the only reputable place I see that actively carries a ~25ILD layer, so there really aren’t any alternatives.

I do sink adequately into the 19ILD layer but it feels “right” if that makes sense. My knees hardly sink in at all, but my hips and side do nicely. I used to sleep with my arm mostly under me, but I now roll my shoulder forward a bit with my arm out front and that made a big difference. I THINK I want just a tiny bit more sink in and I would be 99% of the way there but I’m not really sure. Again though, the cover might be making the mid layer firmer than it should be, so a “clean” DIY stack with the same ILD layers and a stretch cover might be perfect. all I can say is that the Roma by itself on the 28ILD side was excruciating after 2 hours, adding the 3" 19ILD T layer was a definite improvement, but still not right.

One thing I’m having trouble grasping is whether the top layer or mid layer should be adjusted.

Side question: Are 12" (4x3") stacks generally overkill? (that would at least make me feel better if I needed to buy an 4th layer. Even if it was something like ~25+19+28+38)[/quote]

Looks like the Roma’s quilting is 1.5” of supersoft polyfoam which I would expect to aid in pressure relief. If you change to a zippered cover with no quilted foam, you lose some padding but maybe gain some compliance from the intermediate layer. Overall I wouldn’t expect a huge change. Certainly not the 38/45 scenario you referenced previously. I think a greater change in feel would result from moving the 19ild talalay inside a cover. Latex wants to spread outward when you lay on it. A cover will lend structure to the latex and make it feel more substantial. It’s worth calling SleepEZ to get their take. More data points at this point is helpful.
Side Note: The Roma is listed as med over firm. Based on the sleep EZ FAQ’s, med is 30-32, not 28. You might want to confirm that spec. I also noticed the LMF layer you are considering is listed as 28 but the full range is not given. That make it hard to know if it is the same as what is offered by their sister company SleepEZ or slightly softer.

Without more testing, there is no good way to know which layer to target first. The best you can do is research potential causes of your discomfort and the likely impact of changes to your mattress setup. Then resign yourself to trial and error. I would suggest you keep a log to analyze your progress and try to stick to one variable at a time. I know you are trying to limit your costs, but I will mention that having more layers on hand allows you to test more combinations and narrow down your options.
There are a few posts that speak to your shoulder comment. Phoenix might have some links on hand otherwise you will have to search for them. Could give you more insight as to which layer to target.

As far as purchasing and returns, double check if a return to SleepEZ precludes a return to LMF in the same year. While the companies are related, they may operate independently. Foam Sweet Foam has dunlop in wide variety of ild’s, but you would have to ask if they sell layers independently. You can also check with APM, SleepEZ, and flexus to see if they can order items not listed on their website.

9” is adequate to support someone at your size. 12” might allow you to achieve a plusher setup but be aware that the entire system functions differently as the thickness changes. An ILD that worked as an intermediate or comfort layer in a 3x3” may not be viable in a 4x3” setup.

12

[quote=“lantern71 post=90402”]
Looks like the Roma’s quilting is 1.5” of supersoft polyfoam which I would expect to aid in pressure relief. If you change to a zippered cover with no quilted foam, you lose some padding but maybe gain some compliance from the intermediate layer. Overall I wouldn’t expect a huge change. Certainly not the 38/45 scenario you referenced previously. I think a greater change in feel would result from moving the 19ild talalay inside a cover. Latex wants to spread outward when you lay on it. A cover will lend structure to the latex and make it feel more substantial. It’s worth calling SleepEZ to get their take. More data points at this point is helpful.
Side Note: The Roma is listed as med over firm. Based on the sleep EZ FAQ’s, med is 30-32, not 28. You might want to confirm that spec. I also noticed the LMF layer you are considering is listed as 28 but the full range is not given. That make it hard to know if it is the same as what is offered by their sister company SleepEZ or slightly softer. [/quote]

Just for the record, the topper I have is inside a stretch cotton cover, as for the ILD differences, I never noticed that. I just assumed that as sister companies they would be the same. I emailed them today to find out.

[quote=“lantern71 post=90402”]
Without more testing, there is no good way to know which layer to target first. The best you can do is research potential causes of your discomfort and the likely impact of changes to your mattress setup. Then resign yourself to trial and error. I would suggest you keep a log to analyze your progress and try to stick to one variable at a time. I know you are trying to limit your costs, but I will mention that having more layers on hand allows you to test more combinations and narrow down your options.
There are a few posts that speak to your shoulder comment. Phoenix might have some links on hand otherwise you will have to search for them. Could give you more insight as to which layer to target.

As far as purchasing and returns, double check if a return to SleepEZ precludes a return to LMF in the same year. While the companies are related, they may operate independently. Foam Sweet Foam has dunlop in wide variety of ild’s, but you would have to ask if they sell layers independently. You can also check with APM, SleepEZ, and flexus to see if they can order items not listed on their website. [/quote]

APM said they do not and will not, SleepEZ I’m checking with as well, SOL said no, Flexus said their supply chain is very limited so at the moment they will not either. That said, I might try that 23-27 layer from DIYNB as a top layer if the 19+28+38 doesn’t seem to work out. I’ve also thought about it and a 1" 20ILD layer from SOL might be a nice soft comfort layer ontop of the 23-37 layer. Like you said it’s going to be a bit of trial and error, but it will always be able to be modified which is key. At least I’m sourcing some options.

Do you think there would be a “noticeable” difference between 19ILD Talalay and 19ILD Dunlop? I know they behave slightly different, but I’m not sure how perceptible it would be. If the 23-27 turns out to be too hard it could be an option.

Interesting, but it does make sense; as you add overall total thickness, each layer compresses a bit less. Our “ideal” size range was 9, 10, or 12 simply because SLAB and a few other vendors make covers in this size. 11" seems to be an outlier for most places. SLAB has a nice bamboo cotton hybrid cover that I think we might buy. Plenty of options here though.
I don’t think that >10" is necessary for us too.

13

SleepEz just got back to me. Jeremy said that the ILD numbers for both SEZ and LMF are
Soft – 19-20
Med – 30-32
Firm – 38-40
XFirm – 43-44

Also, I forgot to touch on the last post regarding LMF/SEZ returns. According to their CS they “share” returns, so 1 return counts for both SEZ/LMF.

14

I don’t have a good feel for comparing dunlop and talalay of the same ild for soft comfort layers. Generally, the firmer/denser the latex and the further down in the stack, the less noticeable the difference.

RE: Roma having 30-32 dunlop on top. I found this to be relatively firm as an intermediate layer. Your preferences may be very different but I would lean toward that as a starting point.

Not sure what to think about the DIYNB 23-27layer. If it skews towards the softer side it’s a possibility for a comfort layer. If it skews towards to upper end of the range I would lean towards use as an intermediate layer.

RE: sourcing

Mattress To Go sells blended talalay toppers. Worth a call to see if they can help you source something. They always seem to be knowledgeable and helpful.

Did you try FoamSweetFoam for dunlop? Their 23ild medium-soft might be an option for the comfort layer. The 28 med-firm might be a small step down from the 30-32 in the Roma but you will need to compare densities.

APM carries 100% natural talalay in 20-24 labeled N2. It’s listed under the topper/cores section instead of the DIY Components and may be an option for a firmer comfort layer.

If you start a new thread dedicated to sourcing you might get better suggestions.

Radium and Talalay global are the only two manufacturers for talalay. If you strike out everywhere else you can email them directly for help locating a vendor. I have found both responsive.

15

I’m glad you brought that ILD discrepancy to my eyes because I completely missed it. If what Jeremy from both companies said is true, the ILDs on LMF are wrong and I would have been even more confused.

I have an email out to DIYNB in regards to how that range works. Whether it’s a full range possible per slab depending on test location or if each slab is more consistent (+/-1ILD) and the averages just range in that area.
I also just sent an email to FSF to see if they will sell layers by themselves. I didn’t see an option for it on the site, but their Med-Soft does seem like a good option.

I think I at least have a solid baseline to go off of at the moment. It’s not the cheapest plan, but I think it’s the best starting point I can have. I need to jsut get the return rolling for the return and order all of this. Packing that mattress up is going to be a good time…

Proposed 9" starter build:
3" SleepEZ “19ILD” Talalay - Reuse and replace if necessary. Too soft: MTG 23ILD M-S if possible, or APM Natural Talalay 20-24. Too firm: add a 1" 20ILD and/or 2" Serene
3" APM 25-29ILD Natural Talalay, or 28ILD Blended Talalay mid
3" APM Dunlop 34-38ILD or Blended Talalay 34-36 ​

That on paper looks like a slightly softer version what I have already and gives plenty of adjustment options due to the 60 day comfort exchange policies of APM.

Side note: if the 3" 19ILD topper doesn’t work out, I wonder if any places exist that would split it into a 2" and a 1" layer.

16

Well, I took the plunge. Placed my orders and settled on this:
3" SleepEZ “19ILD” Talalay - Reuse
3" APM 28ILD Blended Talalay
3" APM 36ILD Blended Talalay
Going to see how that feels with the top layer in a stretch cotton cover and go from there.

Now I just need to find a charity to take the Roma to, I guess SleepEZ’s policy changed and they just want donations. ​

17

[quote=“nick7790 post=90427”]Well, I took the plunge. Placed my orders and settled on this:
3" SleepEZ “19ILD” Talalay - Reuse
3" APM 28ILD Blended Talalay
3" APM 36ILD Blended Talalay
Going to see how that feels with the top layer in a stretch cotton cover and go from there.

Now I just need to find a charity to take the Roma to, I guess SleepEZ’s policy changed and they just want donations. ​[/quote]

Best of luck. I hope it works out. If you still end up with issues try rearranging the layers for clues as to what helps or hurts your situation. You can also make use of other surfaces like a couch or the bare floor to get other points of comparison.

18

Well, the slabs finally came in on 12/24, ~7 weeks later. Vanessa kept me somewhat updated when my 36ILD was missing from their shipment.

The 36ILD was 60.5"x81"
The 28ILD was 60x78" (I did ask what the acceptable variance in here)
The 28ILD slab also appeared to be two slabs glued together, but one was heavily discolored/darker compared to the other half and my other Talalay slabs. Everything seems ok from a product standpoint as they both feel about the same, but not sure if this means that it has UV damage or has been sitting for a long time.

They only marked the 36ILD slab, so hopefully I got the correct pieces.

On the bad side, the first few nights were about the same pain level as what the ROMA + topper was (3" 19ild Tal + 1.5" foam + 3" 29ILD Dun + 3" 38ILD Dun). I’m waking up a few hours early with mid-back pain. My body might need a bit longer to adjust, but I think we need to do some modification.

I do have the option of a comfort exchange with APM, but the only layer I can see exchanging is the 36ILD support layer for either a 32 or a 28. This will cost around $100 in round trip shipping though where a 1" slab is slightly more than that and infinitely more customizable.

I’m leaning towards starting with 1" of 19ILD Dunlop to go under the 19ILD Talalay layer. If things don’t improve I might try 1-2" of Serene foam on top but also thinking about adding another 2" layer somewhere. Either more 28ILD or 34ILD to go between the 28 and 36.

19

I’m also wondering about the mid layer too? Would making the mid layer thicker possibly be a better option here? So many choices.

A 4-5" 28ILD layer would have slightly more contouring, but still be supportive than a 3" 28ILD with 4" of 19ILD right?

20

Nick sorry to hear you are still experiencing back pain. I’ll attempt to answer your questions. Maybe the mods will chime in with some more thoughts.

[quote=“nick7790 post=90897”]Well, the slabs finally came in on 12/24, ~7 weeks later. Vanessa kept me somewhat updated when my 36ILD was missing from their shipment.

The 36ILD was 60.5"x81"
The 28ILD was 60x78" (I did ask what the acceptable variance in here)
The 28ILD slab also appeared to be two slabs glued together, but one was heavily discolored/darker compared to the other half and my other Talalay slabs. Everything seems ok from a product standpoint as they both feel about the same, but not sure if this means that it has UV damage or has been sitting for a long time.

They only marked the 36ILD slab, so hopefully I got the correct pieces.[/quote]

What size is your mattress? King? If i’m not mistaken, the largest size mold for talalay slabs is queen. To make a king they glue together two twin XL pieces.

As for the size variance, any chance that this is just due to the elastic nature of latex? If you work the material toward or away from the center does it even out? See the wavy motion APM uses to adjust the latex in this video

Not sure what to say about the color without seeing a picture. Could just be a slight difference between batches.

I don’t doubt that you received the correct 28ild layer but if you want to independently confirm see if their is a tag or a product code stamped on the edges of the slab. If so you can match it witch product codes listed in other post or contact the manufacturer directly.

[quote=“nick7790 post=90897”]//
On the bad side, the first few nights were about the same pain level as what the ROMA + topper was (3" 19ild Tal + 1.5" foam + 3" 29ILD Dun + 3" 38ILD Dun). I’m waking up a few hours early with mid-back pain. My body might need a bit longer to adjust, but I think we need to do some modification. [/quote]

can you give more details on the discomfort you are experiencing? Does it come on relatively quickly or only after sleeping several hours? Do you feel any pressure points or numbness anywhere (hips/shoulders) or is just muscle pain in the mid back early in the morning? How do your hips and shoulders “feel” when sinking in to the current setup. Too much/too little? When in your sleeping position, if your partner looks at your spine at bed level does it appear relatively straight from your tailbone to your neck or is there a curve. If curved, what part the back and which direction? A long straight edge, like a broom stick, might be helpful for comparison.

Previously with the Roma/topper setup you said you felt like you bottomed out the soft top layer and experienced some hammocking. You also said that you rolled your shoulder forward as opposed to sleeping with it directly under you. If this all still the same?

You didn’t mention anything about the new cover. Would it be correct to assume that it made no difference?

after you answer the above questions, the first change you should try is swapping the top and middle layer. Putting the 28 on top will offer more support but the 19ild in the middle will still allow for contouring. Let us know if the symptoms get better or worse, answering all the same questions. Hopefully the comparison will offer insight as to whether you need softer, firmer, thicker, etc.

[quote=“nick7790 post=90897”]I do have the option of a comfort exchange with APM, but the only layer I can see exchanging is the 36ILD support layer for either a 32 or a 28. This will cost around $100 in round trip shipping though where a 1" slab is slightly more than that and infinitely more customizable.

I’m leaning towards starting with 1" of 19ILD Dunlop to go under the 19ILD Talalay layer. If things don’t improve I might try 1-2" of Serene foam on top but also thinking about adding another 2" layer somewhere. Either more 28ILD or 34ILD to go between the 28 and 36.[/quote]

I would caution your plan of action. When making changes, try to swap one thing at a time and like for like so as to introduce as few variables as possible. I.E. swap talalay for talalay and dunlop for dunlop, keeping brands consistent if possible. At least until you have more data points work off of. You might also find that adding/subtracting 1" increments has a relatively small change and might be geared toward fine tuning. Doesn’t sound like you are at that point. I’ll refrain from any more suggestions until you report back.