swap latex for memory foam in serta icomfort genius

Hi rzailit,

Good idea that should eliminate most of the variables. Like you said … don’t mess with a chemical engineer. I’m really curious what your results will show.

Sometimes it really seems to be hit and miss. We also had a bad experience with a memory foam topper on one occasion and it was both of us with similar symptoms and not just the smell. It wasn’t pleasant to say the least. It’s the only time I’ve reacted to memory foam. The smell itself was kind of “musty” which I understand is typical of aldehydes but you would probably know more than I would on that front.

There are two parts to an organic wool certification. One of these is the farming of the sheep and the production of the raw wool which is controlled by the NOP of the USDA. They don’t have an organic certification for the wool products or textiles though and for this you would need to look for GOTS organic certification. There are also non certified wool textiles that don’t use chemicals such as eco wool or Puregrow wool. There is an interesting article here on organic wool.

Unfortunately they no longer have a showroom but they may be able to give you some guidance about testing similar mattresses at Lake Mattress (see post #19 and 20 here). I would call them first though as there appears to be some confusion in their relationship or agreement which I still haven’t been able to clarify.

Post #2 here may also have some other options close to you where you can test latex.

Phoenix

Doesn’t the icomfort mattress have novaform in it? maybe it’s something to do with the process they use to add the gel that makes it more prone to reactions? or off gas more? I did smell my roommates memory foam mattress (she got her’s at ikea) and it doesn’t smell at all. granted it is a year old but she said her’s only smelled for a few days. and she never had a reaction to it, but she said it’s hard to breath in my room. anyway, I set up the filters today to sample the air. I put them about 6 inches above the mattress because I figure that’s where your head is when you’re sleeping/or laying on the mattress. I should have results within a couple weeks. When I went in my room I had the same reaction as before only not as severe. chest tightness and difficulty breathing… can’t wait to tell the store to get the thing out of my room…

I think I had a different rocky mountain mattress in mind? this one is in Lehi, UT. I’m not sure if these guys have the best prices but it would be nice to try out a mattress before buying it…

http://www.rockymountainmattress.com/

Hi railit,

Novaform is a brand name for a mattress not a foam but both of them use variations of gel foam made by Sleep Innovations (or their foam manufacturing division called Advanced Urethane Technologies).

This is the same company (and a member of this site). Their corporate headquarters is in Levi, Utah and they used to have a factory showroom in Conover (where the factory is located) and when they closed that (it was in the factory which was a liability issue) then they made an arrangement with Lake Mattress in Mooresville to test some of their mattresses there (or similar mattresses that they carry).

Phoenix

I’ve been finding lots of papers that attempt to quantify 2,4-TDA and 2,6-TDA (toluenediamine) in memory foam products. These are both biproducts of the chemical process to make memory foam and are suspected carcinogens. It appears that current thought it you can be exposed to around 1 ppm without adverse effects. However, the CertiPUR certification allows up to 5 ppm.

One paper I found looked at ranges of 2,4-TDA over a 10 day period and found that 2,4-TDA decreased between 20-90% and 2,6-TDA decreased between 20-80%.

J. R. Johnson, D. Karlsson, M. Dalene, and G. Skarping, “Determination of aromatic amines in aqueous extracts of polyurethane foam using hydrophilic interaction liquid chromatography and mass spectrometry.,” Analytica chimica acta, vol. 678, no. 1, pp. 117–23, Sep. 2010.

Another paper found ranges 2,4-TDA between undetectable - 6.9 ppm… and 2,6-TDA between undetectable - 6.3 ppm. These values all increased when the foam was heated - some being as high as 15 ppm.

Å. Marand, D. Karlsson, M. Dalene, and G. Skarping, “Extractable organic compounds in polyurethane foam with special reference to aromatic amines and derivatives thereof,” Analytica Chimica Acta, vol. 510, no. 1, pp. 109–119, May 2004.

Hi railit,

I think that the “truth” is that nobody really knows for sure and testing for individual chemicals or volatiles also doesn’t take into account the total loading of toxic chemicals that someone is exposed to that can increase sensitivity to any one of them (or to untested combinations). Over the course of decades … chemicals that were once considered “safe” within certain limits are now known to be potentially harmful to a percentage of the population but the science is nowhere near accurate enough as the amount of chemicals used in all parts of our society is increasing with results that are still not well understood.

CertiPur is a step in the right direction but empirical evidence suggests that the limits don’t account for all the population either because of individual differences between people or because of differences between different batches of material. Oeko-Tex is a more stringent qualification for many toxins and chemicals but in a decade even these may be discovered to to be too low as new information comes to light.

It can be frustrating when the simple act of buying a mattress leads to questions that nobody can answer with any specific degree of accuracy or that requires a degree in chemical engineering to be able to make sense of the information that is already available :unsure:

Phoenix

Got some VOC results:

benzene: 1.4 ppb
1,4-dichlorobenzene: 0.88 ppb
formaldehyde: 30 ppb
styrene: 0.47 ppb
toluene: 44 ppb
1,2,4-trimethylbenzene: 2.6 ppb
xylenes: 13 ppb

Not as high as I thought they might be but still disturbing that this stuff is potentially in the mattress.

I’m going to talk to the store tomorrow… if they won’t take it back I’m going to go on and measure for toluene diisocyanate, diphenylmethane diisocyanate, 2,4-toluenediamine, 2,6-toluenediamine and 4,4-methylenedianiline.

Hi railit,

I’d have to do some research to “translate” the results but they sure are interesting.

I’m curious about your testing protocol. Were these taken as random air samples in certain places in the room or at some predefined distance from the mattress?

Phoenix

I collected the air samples approximately 6 inches off the mattress (I figure this is about where your head is) over a period of 72 hours. The mattress had been already been out-gassing for two weeks before I collected the samples… and it was manufactured about two months ago.

All of these appear to fall within the guidelines of the certi-PUR certification. I however have a problem with how much benzene the certification allows. I also have a problem with how much TDA/MDA is allowed. As far as I can tell safe exposure to these is considered to be around 1 ppm but the certification allows up to 5 ppm. Also, it doesn’t look like they even test for toluene diisocyanate. I’m still trying to figure out he best way to test for these. So far it looks like I may have to cut the mattress so unless I figure something else out I won’t test for them unless they refuse to take the mattress back.

Also, it is true that these chemicals can come from other things such as pressed wood, varnish, carpet, paint, air fresheners, cleaning products etc. The carpet and paint in my room is VERY old (over 10 years) so it probably isn’t emitting much of anything. My dresser is old (over 40 years) and is solid wood (not pressed wood) so I doubt it’s emitting much either. I don’t use air fresheners, and the main cleaning product I use is a mix of vinegar/water.

I am planning to repeat this same test once I get a different mattress to be sure.

They refunded me for the mattress and are picking it up tomorrow. haha

Hi railit,

I think if I was presented with your numbers … whether I knew what they meant or not … my jaw would probably drop open and I would refund you as well just to be on the safe side.

You may be on to something :slight_smile:

Phoenix

LOL… yeah they seemed surprised. I told them a few weeks ago I was testing the air in my room because their mattress made me sick. I guess they didn’t expect results. I think I may be blacklisted from buying another mattress from them; they didn’t even ask if I wanted to exchange it this time.

Anyway, I’m thinking about getting a latex mattress from sleepez. I was looking at the 9" organic one vs the 8" special. I called about the differences and basically it seems to come down to the cover. I’m fine with a cotton/rayon cover that isn’t organic as long as it’s not treated with fire retardants etc. I asked if it was treated and they said no but after my last experience I’m not sure I believe anything from a mattress salesman. Do you know if this is true?

I was also wondering if there are any benefits to getting the wool/cotton as far as feel? Is it going to feel very different from the cotton/rayon cover?

The only other difference I could see is that the organic one has the option of talalay as the support layers whereas the special only has dunlop available for the support layers. It seems like if I was getting extra firm/firm as the layers (I like a firm mattress) that dunlop would be fine. is there any advantage to getting all talalay?

Just trying to figure out if the $400 difference is worth it.

Thanks, -Raili

Hi railit,

They are the source of any information I have about their mattresses and I trust them and the information they give me completely yes. The non quilted SleepEz special uses a rayon/silica inherent fire barrier instead of the wool.

The wool quilted cover will slightly reduce the amount you sink into the latex (make it a little firmer) and will also provide better temperature control and some of the surface “feel” of a thin wool layer which some people prefer over sleeping directly on the latex. It’s really a matter of preference and your own personal criteria.

Both their organic line and their regular line have the wool quilted cover but the regular gives you a choice between blended talalay and 100% natural Dunlop in any of the layers and has a lower cost while the organic line gives you a choice between 100% natural Talalay and organic Dunlop in any of the layers and is more costly. I personally don’t think organic Dunlop is worth the premium for the certification in terms of performance or safety (see post #6 here) but some people do prefer the 100% natural Talalay over the blended even though they are very similar in terms of feel and performance and all of them have the same OekoTex certification.

The Special has 100% natural talalay in the comfort layer and 100% natural Dunlop in the lower layers. It also doesn’t have the 5% member discount because it’s a lower margin mattress and has a pillow bonus instead.

The comparison between Talalay and Dunlop is also a preference of “feel” (see post #7 here) but Dunlop has a higher compression modulus which means that it gets firmer faster than Talalay in the same ILD as you sink in deeper than the 25% compression where ILD is measured so would generally feel firmer and be more “supportive” (you would sink in less) than Talalay.

Phoenix

Ok… I talked to Shawn again and here’s what he recommended. The organic 9" latex with all talalay with extra firm/firm/soft. He said I would not bottom out through the soft layer (which I was worried about). I want a firm mattress after experiencing lower back pain from the soft one (that was supposably firm). Are the extra firm and firm talalay going to feel the same as the dunlop as far as firmness? I’m concerned this setup may end up feeling to soft.

Also, just in case this doesn’t work out (it’s a little nerve wracking ordering a mattress online) is it even feasible to ship a mattress back? I tried looking up rates and it looked like it cost between $500-1000 to ship it back from Utah. If this is the case the return policy isn’t really worth much.

Thanks, Raili

Hi railit,

I would keep in mind that Shawn knows more about his mattresses than anyone else including me and that you have also had a more extended conversation with him that would help him give you the best possible guidance so I wouldn’t put anyone else’s thoughts (including mine) above the suggestions of a knowledgeable and experienced manufacturer who works with customers and their specific mattress designs every day.

100% natural Talalay is denser than the blend so it would also have a higher compression modulus and you would sink into it a little less than blended Talalay. In the support layers which don’t compress as much as the comfort layers (depending on body type and sleeping style) there would be more of a difference in the “feel” and overall response between Talalay and Dunlop as opposed to actual support because much of the compression would be taken up by the comfort layer (which is what you feel the most) and then “stopped” by the firmer transition and support layers below them. With shallow compression (less than 25%) Dunlop can actually be softer than Talalay and then gets firmer as you go past 25% compression so it would also depend on how you interact with the mattress.

They offer a layer exchange to fine tune your mattress if this becomes necessary where the shipping cost is capped at $30 and in the large majority of cases either the initial configuration or a layer exchange works out well. If you did need to return it then the individual layers make it possible to ship back with UPS and the shipping would be much lower than the amounts you are mentioning. If you ask them they could give you a good idea of the average costs involved.

Phoenix

I just ordered it. I’ll let you know how everything goes. :slight_smile:

Hi railit,

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I think you made a great choice and I’m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it!

Phoenix

I got the mattress yesterday and so far I’ve been happy with it. They called me to double check everything in the order which was nice. It was shipped within two business days of my order and I received it two days later. I thought everything was packed extremely well. The foundations were easy to put together. I had a hard time with the mattress until I actually watched the video on their website and then it was easy (well relatively- king size pieces of latex are heavy- lol). Looking back on it I should have gone with their recommendation to use split pieces even though I went with the same layering on each side.

So far I like how the latex feels. Its doesn’t seem jiggly which is something I was worried about. This may have to do with the wool in the cover - which I also really like. The latex has a slight rubber smell- which I was expecting. Far better than the gas station/mildew smell of memory foam. So far the comfort of the layers seems good but I want to give it a few weeks before making a final decision. I like the firmness of it --I was worried it was going to be to soft and my hips would sink to much but so far that hasn’t been an issue. Usually if that’s an issue with a bed I know the first night. If anything it may be slightly to firm but I’m going to give it some time. It’s def. a mattress I would have picked out after laying on it in the store so I’m glad I took the risk of buying online.

One reason I went with them instead of one of the others was their fast turnaround time. A few of the sellers had turn around times of 3-6 weeks. Since I was without a mattress I wanted something sooner than later. Between sleeping on an air mattress/floor/couch for a month my back was really starting to bother me. Also, I couldn’t really find anything negative about them online. At least not really negative. I saw one review where someone said their layers kept sliding apart. My cover is so tight I don’t see how this is possible. Also, the layers were pretty much impossible to slide into place when I was layering the mattress. So I don’t think mine would slide even without a cover. I saw someone else who said they swapped 8-9 layers and couldn’t find a good arrangement. I think at this point you might just have to admit that you don’t like the feel of latex in general.

The free pillows are nicer than I thought they’d be and I’ll def. be using them.

The only comments I have are the two support layers were cut two inches short of a true king whereas the top layer was cut perfect. I don’t know if this is standard. It doesn’t seem to affect the integrity of the mattress and is not something I would have even known if I hadn’t assembled it myself. Also, I wish the latex had some sort of identifier so you could know for sure where it came from. I trust that they used what they said they did or I wouldn’t have bought it but some sort of identifier would def. bring peace of mind.

Hi railit,

Thanks for the great feedback about your experiences so far :slight_smile:

Latex is very stretchy and either elongates or scrunches very easily and then “sticks” to the layer below so it’s quite likely that if you “wave” the layer into position rather than pushing (which can shorten it) or pulling (which can lengthen it) that it will reach it’s original cut length. They would probably confirm this with a call as well. It’s fairly uncommon after putting a mattress together that all the layers are completely “relaxed” and are usually pushed or pulled to some degree across the surface making a layer either longer or shorter. This will normally either even out over time or can be “waved” into its correct measurement.

The original identifying label on a core is attached to the full 6" core and is often either removed in fabrication (cutting) or a layer is cut from a part of the core that doesn’t include the original label.

If it really was cut short though … I think they would probably want to know about it but this would be unusual and the odds are higher that it’s part of the pushing and pulling that goes with assembling the mattress in combination with the elasticity of latex.

Phoenix

Ok. I took it apart and remeasured all the layers. They seem to be the right size but change a lot (like you said) depending on how I mess with them.