So can you say without a doubt based on the law tag of this topper that the composition of natural latex is only 30%?
I want to be sure before I make a complaint to Costco as they are very good at standing behind the products they sell and would not be happy considering the supplier claims 85% natural latex.
The latex has a very pleasant sweet smell with no noticeable smell of chemical unlike some cheap talalay I purchased for some chairs I was re-padding.
My wife thinks I’m over reacting as she finds the topper to be fine.
The label indicates clearly that it is blended Talalay made by Latex International and while they can do custom blends … the odds are very low that this is anything other than their regular blended Talalay. You could ask Latex International directly to find out for sure but IMO it is very doubtful. Blended Talalay is typically more durable than 100% natural Talalay although this is more likely in lower ILD’s.
This is the “typical” smell of Talalay latex. The other latex you were referring to probably wan’t Talalay because there is no “cheap Talalay” being produced. There are only two manufacturers who produce the Talalay latex that you will find in North America (Latex International and Radium). There are dozens of companies that produce Dunlop in either natural, blended, or synthetic versions and these would typically have a very different smell.
I was hoping you could confirm your thoughts on the composition of this latex based on the law tags that I have provided?
I hope this isn’t to much to ask it would be very helpful to us considering that it was advertised as being natural 85%/15%
If what you suspect is true then I am truly disappointed in the bedding industry as a whole
[quote=“Phoenix” post=15121]Hi jege41,
I added the picture to your last post.
Based on the label … this is blended Talalay with an ILD of 28 and a density of 3.? (last digit is cut off but would be in the range of 3.7).
If you put the topper on the floor and run a string across it or a straight edge of some type over the impression … can you measure how deep the impression or divot is with no weight on the topper. It would be very unusual for blended latex to develop an impression this quickly unless there was a defect of some type.
If you could take a picture that shows the depth of the impression and send it to me as well I’ll post it here and ask my contact at Latex International to comment on it and see what he says.
[quote]I was hoping you could confirm your thoughts on the composition of this latex based on the law tags that I have provided?
I hope this isn’t to much to ask it would be very helpful to us considering that it was advertised as being natural 85%/15%
If what you suspect is true then I am truly disappointed in the bedding industry as a whole :([/quote]
Yes … the odds are very high that this is 70% SBR / 30% NR blended Talalay latex made by Latex International.
I have found many cases where the big box stores have mislisted information about what they sell and I share your disappointment about the mattress industry (which is the reason I started this site in the first place).
If you can take the picture of the topper on the floor with a string or straight edge across it that clearly shows the depth of the impression and you are not able to get a satisfactory answer from LI directly then I will call the person I know there to ask them about it.
I’m not going to able to examine it right now as I’m experiencing a flare up in my back and hip at the moment.
I know the name of the company that is selling this topper on behalf of Costco if that helps.
I feel obligated not to say to much until I am 100% sure that I have been ripped off.
Costco stands behinds there products but the hassle returning this item and the fact that I have been lied to really irks me.
Again if you can make a call on my behalf I would really appreciate it.
yes … I have talked with Literie Laurier on several occasions about their Costco topper and other things as well. They are good people.
You can see in post #1 here and my reply that there was another member who thought that their Costco topper was impressing or too soft but it seemed clear to me that it was more about the softness of the mattress/topper combination and that he was sinking in too far for his body type and sleeping style. While it’s unlikely that the topper has an impression issue … you can find out for certain by putting it on a flat hard surface like the floor and then measuring the depth of any impression with a string or straight edge.
I thought the most effective way to deal with Costco’s description was to call Literie Laurier because they have been good people to deal with in my experience and have been very responsive and are aware of this site. They get their Talalay latex from a distributor in Montreal rather than directly from latex International.
So I talked with Francois there and he confirmed (and even went to the warehouse to check) that they only use blended Talalay latex not the natural because like me they believe it is more durable and that the extra cost of the all natural isn’t usually justified (at least based on performance). The description on the Costco site apparently originates from their supplier who may have made a mistake and used the description of another type of latex they sell so he will track down where it originated and let me know.
In the meantime … it’s clear to me and to him that you received 28 ILD blended Talalay which is a very durable material and not generally subject to the kind of impressions you are experiencing. I think the odds are very high any soft spots you are feeling are not likely to be in the topper itself … although of course anything is possible.
I don’t think anyone is trying to “excuse” anything or “blame” anyone. There is clearly a mistake in the Costco listing. Finding out the origin of any mistake and the intent to fix it (which they clearly have or they wouldn’t be investigating why Costco lists it the way they do) is more important to me than holding anyone to a standard where any mistake is called “lieing or cheating”. I just don’t think this is the case here and they certainly wouldn’t have called me within an hour of leaving a message to talk with someone who may know who in turn went to investigate and called me back in 5 minutes to confirm what he told me initially that they don’t sell “all natural” talalay if they had any intent to mislead.
There could be many reasons why the listing is wrong and it seems to me that they intend to find out what it is and my opinion remains that they are “good people” and that even good people make mistakes.
I hope you are right and if you are I will give the company in mention the opportunity to fix the problem with either a topper of the advertised specifications or better.
Mistakes do happen but in my case financial ones always seem to not be in my favor for some reason.
I will keep you informed.
This may depend on what you call “better”. The topper you already have is “blended talalay and would already be more durable than an all natural Talalay latex topper (so by this measure it would be"better”) but of course all natural is also more costly. If you are committed to “all natural” Talalay rather than blended Talalay … then they won’t be able to help you because neither Literie Laurier (or Costco) sells that material. Since you are dealing with Costco anyway not Literie Laurier (which is a Costco supplier) then it would make sense to me to return it to Costco and purchase an all natural Talalay topper from somewhere else.
I certainly understand your frustration if you thought you were ordering all natural (for whatever reason that was important to you) and that’s not what you received but at least you have good recourse if blended isn’t what you want because of Costco’s return policy. Getting back to square one with no cost involved may be the best you can do.
I can’t understand why you criticize the Big S brands for not stating the specifications of there foam and yet when a non S brand lies about there specifications you don’t seem to think it’s big deal, maybe a double standard here Phoenix?
From all the research I have read here on this site you have always said that the more natural the latex is the better and warned against fraudsters in the industry usually pointing fingers at the S brands.
I would compare this to buying a car and being told that it has 85 horse power and then finding out it only has 30.
And then there is the issue of advertised density of 5+lb and in reality only 3+lb
This topper sags and IMO the best way to measure the indentation is through the natural holes of the latex with a pencil ruler.
I’m almost rolling back into the indentation when I move over, and yes after 5 or 10 minutes it puffs back up but crush’s easily when I move back to my preferred spot.
This is not right and Costco should not be selling this item if it is based on fraudulent specifications.
Lucky for me the only thing I have lost is my time as I can return this fake for a refund.
I feel for the folks that have bought from guys like this that had no recourse and I 'm sure there are many here.
Oh and by the way I knew I was buying blended but at 85/15 not 30/70 and that’s a huge difference and IMO I have good reason to be PO don’t you think so?
I think you may be stretching things a bit here and finding reasons to criticize or vent at anyone or anything including me … (and ironically enough I was the one who made the phone call and helped you confirm the information you wanted to know) but the simple answer is the same as I told you before … I don’t believe anyone is lying here or trying to keep anything secret or “proprietary”.
Then you haven’t read very much of what I’ve written about latex and you also haven’t read the many posts where I talk about avoiding more “absolute” comparisons where there can be pros and cons to any choice. You can see for example this article along with post #6 here and post #2 here and post #2 here and post #6 here and many more … all of which go into great detail about the differences between different types of and blends of latex so that people can decide for themselves which is “better” according to what is most important to them. Blended talalay though in lower ILD’s is more durable than all natural Talalay and the manufacturer’s warranty for all natural is only half as long.
I don’t think I’ve talked much about “fraud” which has a very different meaning and is a completely different topic than most of what I talk about on the forum … including the practices of the “S” brands.
As I said … it’s clearly a mistake but I wouldn’t be nearly as upset as you are when I had the ability to receive a complete refund if I wasn’t happy with a product I purchased. I would probably be disappointed yes … but not angry … and I don’t think I’m quite as critical or “reactive” as you are to mistakes … especially when someone goes out of their way to help you first identify them and/or correct them.
Yes you are right in that I shouldn’t blame you and for that I apologize.
You have a great forum here and without it I would not have known that the product I bought was not as advertised.
Perhaps in this case though considering the complete misrepresentation of the product I would of hoped you might have taken a more critical view of the seller considering the blatant lies about the specifications, and for that I do sort of understand.
Thank you Phoenix for your help and for now I will be contacting Costco and have this rectified.
I agree that the topper was not as advertised. I also don’t believe that anyone is lying which involves intent to deceive. I believe this is a mistake that happened somewhere along the supply chain although Costco is the one that is ultimately responsible to the customer because they are the ones selling it.
I have often taken a somewhat “critical” view of Costco particularly when it comes to mattresses because they have little knowledge about what they sell and I have often mentioned that a consumer is “rolling the dice” when they buy from them … but I have also mentioned that the advantage of dealing with them is that the risk of an online purchase is lowered because of their refund policy which at least means that the roll of the dice doesn’t cost anything and you get another free roll if your choice doesn’t work out for any reason. I have seen many of their listings that contain errors and accepting that this is part of the risk of dealing with them is part of the choice and tradeoffs involved in making a purchase there.
As far as Literie Laurier (which is only one of the links in the supply chain) … I see that once they have been made aware of it that they have been responsive and are trying to find out what happened. It is often the case that a mattress manufacturer is given wrong information or specs from their suppliers (this is far more common than you may realize) which in turn gets passed on to consumers. There is no intent to lie here … just wrong information that gets passed on. This is much like someone posting incorrect information on the internet that is based on their opinion and saying something that is only partly true and others picks it up and before you know it there are hundreds of sites saying the same thing and it takes on the “aura of truth” even though the mistake originated in a single place. This is also not normally a “lie” … just someone who believes something that isn’t completely true. It’s the same as the children’s game “Chinese Whispers” where the message at the end is nothing line the message in the beginning even though nobody lied about what they think they heard.
I personally don’t tend to get particularly upset when I don’t see “bad intent” and I do see the “good intent” to correct any mistakes and when there is good recourse for any mistakes that are made no matter what they are.
I have been in contact with Costco.ca several times over the past few days trying to inform them of the incorrect specifications of the talalay topper that they are selling. Apparently they were in touch with the vendor who admitted to making a mistake however the correction on the website still indicated incorrect specification’s. I contacted Costco.ca again and they assured me that the specs. were correct and in a polite way told me to take a walk. I asked to speak to a senior manager and discussed the issue with him although I’m not to sure whether or not he was really listening. He did say that he would be contacting the buying department in regards to this issue.
I decided to call Latex International and I had a very productive discussion with a representative who offered to give Costco.ca a courtesy email regarding the specifications of Latex International’s latex, and specifically the one that Costco.ca sells.
I’m not to sure when this will reflect the information on Costco.ca website?
Thanks again for the great forum
Literie Laurier also called me back and told me they were tracking down the source of the mistake and had talked to Costco. It may take a while to show up on Costco because I don’t think they move that quickly but at least they know about it (along with everyone else who is involved directly or indirectly :))
I received a call from Costco this morning apologizing for the situation.
This is exactly the reason many people don’t shop online and it is unfortunate that vendors who have been in business for decades don’t know what they are selling. It is also unfortunate that there are vendors who will say anything to make a sale regardless if it is true or false.There should be stricter regulations in the bedding industry when it comes to labeling. Perhaps a stamp on the item as well as stricter guidelines when it comes to listing the specifications so that the average consumer knows exactly what he or she actually received for there money. The big S brands should have to document the specifications of there beds just as a maker of a jar of jam must.
Thanks again for the excellent site
I certainly agree with this and it’s especially true with some of the big box stores who tend to know little about what they are selling but of course it can happen anywhere in a supply chain either through mistakes, carelessness, or intent. I’ve seen quite a few listings on the big box stores where based on the shipping weights the foam densities were clearly wrong for example.
I agree with this in concept but I think the problem is that the regulations already exist and most mattresses or bedding materials already include information about the “ingredients” on the law label (just like a jar of jam). What they are missing is the quality or specifics of those ingredients and many food items are missing this type of information as well (such as not listing whether the food is GMO or other quality information or few details other than the actual type of ingredients or additives (which are often missing or generic as well).
Most governments also have regulations in place about mislisting products or misleading advetising but these are not well enforced in many cases and there are often “grey areas” where it’s difficult to know if something is a mistake or done with intent.
My personal thoughts are that if consumers stop buying “blind” items then the businesses that sell them will be forced to change more effectively than with more regulations that always include exceptions or grey areas and have many “hidden” costs involved.
Either way … the industry as it stands is not nearly as transparent as is “should” or could be.
I only have a minute to respond, unusual for me :lol: I have followed this thread with interest, and sympathy for Phoenix, who I thought showed extraordinary patience with what I thought was an over-reaction by jege41. Marketing hype has always been ubiquitous in our culture (watch a season of Mad Men). Costco, though generally a company with higher than normal ethics, still has ad writers who seldom know their products well. Even in small companies the copywriters often take these liberties and in large companies there is a complete disconnect.
TBS, I do find that even the higher quality vendors that Phoenix recommends are full of claims like “all natural Talalay” when they mean a blend. I see “organic” used for products that are probably a blend of synthetic and natural, but unlikely organic, rubber. I see terms like eco-foam for foams that have a small part of soy or other natural foams. There is BS everywhere, even from vendors who know better…
I applaud Phoenix for his efforts to have some effect on this, but more importantly, informing us so we can ask these questions. His effort to get Costco be truthful in advertising is above and beyond. I just hope he can manage to support himself and his family doing this for the consumer. My two cents! Lew
[quote=“LEW” post=15810]I only have a minute to respond, unusual for me :lol: I have followed this thread with interest, and sympathy for Phoenix, who I thought showed extraordinary patience with what I thought was an over-reaction by jege41. Marketing hype has always been ubiquitous in our culture (watch a season of Mad Men). Costco, though generally a company with higher than normal ethics, still has ad writers who seldom know their products well. Even in small companies the copywriters often take these liberties and in large companies there is a complete disconnect.
[b]I have watched Mad Men and personally that type of business practice IMO is slimy. If anyone wants to except being ripped off and take it with a smile that’s fine with me, but if you f*** with me I’m going to find a way to make things right…
False advertising is just that and it is against the law in both the USA and Canada, and misleading advertising is unethical and in some cases illegal.
[/b]TBS, I do find that even the higher quality vendors that Phoenix recommends are full of claims like “all natural Talalay” when they mean a blend. I see “organic” used for products that are probably a blend of synthetic and natural, but unlikely organic, rubber. I see terms like eco-foam for foams that have a small part of soy or other natural foams. There is BS everywhere, even from vendors who know better…
A claim by a vendor in this case said that his product was 85% natural and 15 % synthetic although it was 30% natural and 70% synthetic and you think that is ok and is no reason to be outraged, well not in my books.
I applaud Phoenix for his efforts to have some effect on this, but more importantly, informing us so we can ask these questions. His effort to get Costco be truthful in advertising is above and beyond. I just hope he can manage to support himself and his family doing this for the consumer. My two cents! Lew[/quote]
[b]I too think that Phoenix has proven that this site is an invaluable tool for shoppers buying a new mattress and I applaud him for being patient with me and others who come here to educate themselves.
In the end I won and the other’s that might have been sucked into buying something that was not as advertised. :P[/b]