I always put the carriage in front of the horse and at the stage of the game Iâm at everything here is foreign (terminology). I must admit Quite the display of patience you exhibit here on this site.
Thanks again âŚ
L
Bye the way this is L (save you some typing) ⌠T wont be in the picture until after the purchase. 
I guess I really need to take a step back a bit and begin to figure out what I need and what I need to do to get my current bed to be able to accommodate a new mattress weather it be a latex hybrid (?) or a memory foam. I know I need a foundation and a relatively sturdy one at that. The best fit for me would either be a KD style or a split considering I live in a second floor apartment of a 100 year old house. I initially considered sitting it on the floor but now im second guessing it.
I read through your foundation thread and was able to pull out a couple of manufacturers of KD foundations. I realize that the slat space makes a difference and that it should be less then 3 inches. What im confused with is the height and application of the foundation of a low profile vs a regular profile foundation.
If I were to go with a frame similar to the one pictured below would a low profile foundation be acceptable in this sort of application. I realize speaking with the manufacturer of the mattress that I choose would be best so to meet their warranty specifications.
Hi TandL,
Iâm still using the same greeting because that way if I ever have to search through any of my replies to you they will all show up on the same search 
If you decide to use the steel bedframe you pictured then you wonât need the bedlegs which would attach directly to the foundation. Either one will provide good support for the foundation.
If you end up with a mattress that uses latex as the support core then the 3" or less spacing in between the slats would be especially important. If you end up with a mattress that uses polyfoam as the base layer then a little wider wold be OK although smaller spacing will still make a stronger and more evenly supportive foundation.
The height of the foundation that is best for you (regular or low profile) would depend on how high you want your sleeping surface to be and wonât affect the support of your mattress. A slatted KD foundation would meet the warranty requirements of almost any manufacturer (with the exception of those that require their own foundation be purchased with the mattress).
Phoenix
Thanks again Phoenix
Well we made it out to Worley Beds today and got to try out some more beds. T started mattress hopping while I listened to the sale pitch. We got to lay around on some latex beds and boy what a difference like day and night from foam. As much as impressed I was with them T was stuck like glue to the Tempurpedic Cloud Luxe. I forced her to lay there for the duration easy twenty minutes. She was so pleases that she almost wanted us to work out a deal to take one home. Almost ⌠but not quite!
So I think mattresses that are similar will be the direction that I go in⌠I already found a few that claim that they are similar, so im gonna start to list them in my post above to make things a bit easier. Unfortunately ive been quite sick these past few days thus the time to go out and look at some mattresses.
Think gonna take this time to lift the bed and see what im looking to retro fit this with a new foundation.
Happy New Year too you also Phoenix
Really having a hard time understanding the 700.00 difference between these two beds. Iâm confident enough of both these two companies to say that the difference is somewhere in the materials that they use and not a markup. I remember reading in one of your articles Phoenix That 4lb foam is probably the lowest one should consider in a mattress. But it appears in beds similar to the cloud luxe that 4lb foam keeps popping up in the comfort layers. some im thinking its a must to duplicate the feel. The biggest difference is the 8lb gel foam support layer in the Cirrus so im assuming this is where the price difference comes in. SF doesnât mention what they use for a Core/Base but Im assuming that its in the 2.17 to 2.5 range cause these numbers consistently keep popping up as I research. What im thinking is that the cirrus because of the amount of cooling foam they use could be categorized somewhat closer to the Breeze this justifying the extra money and putting the cirrus more or less in the same category as BB PureCool Luxe.
How am I making out Phoenix, Am I starting to grasp this stuff?..This is tuff stuff!
BB Cool Luxe ($1299) Compared to the Cloud Luxe
4-way Stretch Cotton Mattress Cover
3" 4lb Gel-Infused Memory Foam
2.5" 5lb Memory Foam
7.5" of 2.17lb BB HD Foam Core
Cirrus Luxe-ES ($1999) Compared to the Cloud Luxe
Washable Micro-Suede Coolmax Cover
2.5" 4lb soy SELECT-ES⢠gel memory foam
2" 8lb soy SELECT-HD⢠gel foam support layer
Polyurethane base, made extra-thick to provide a lifetime of support
BB PureCool Luxe ($1999) Compared to the Cloud Luxe Breeze
4-way Stretch Cotton Mattress Cover,
1.5" 5lb PureCool⢠Memory Foam,
2" 4lb Gel Memory Foam,
2" 5lb Memory Foam,
7.5" 2.17lb BB HD Foam Core.
Hi TandL,
There are many factors involved in the price of a mattress but with two mattresses that are made by the same manufacturer the biggest difference would be the difference in the cost of the raw materials and the manufacturing of the mattress although mattresses in higher budget ranges also tend to have slightly higher margins as well. While higher density more durable materials are more costly than lower density less durable materials ⌠there are also other factors involved in the cost of materials that may have less to do with durability and more to do with the properties of a material that make it more attractive to some people (see post #6 here).
When you are comparing mattresses made by two different manufacturers or sold by different retailers then just like any two businesses that offer similar (but not the same) products ⌠differences in their raw material or component costs based on the quality or amount of materials, different production costs to make the mattress, different business and infrastructure costs, different business models and margins, different business volumes which can affect the cost of raw materials, the number of âstepsâ between the suppliers of the raw materials and the sale of the mattress, and the the cost of different options they provide before or after a purchase (such as return or exchange options), different pricing policies, different shipping costs, different product or service âbonusesâ that are included in a purchase, and any of the other normal differences between any two businesses will all lead to differences in how each business prices its products.
Some products may be more or less costly at one business while others may be more or less costly at the other but since nobody except the business itself has access to all this type of information ⌠there is really no way to compare two mattresses based on the detailed specifics of âraw material costâ alone except in very general terms so your own testing and/or more detailed conversations with each manufacturer about the relative benefits of each mattress or the materials they use based on the information they provide you (and why each material has the benefits it does) becomes more important than the specific details of the actual cost of the all materials themselves or relatively small differences in prices.
When you are down to final choices between âgood and goodâ then there isnât a formula that you can use and âbest judgementâ based on your testing, your conversations and questions with each retailer or manufacturer, and the specifics of your personal value equation is the most effective way to choose. For example ⌠some people may place more âvalueâ in some properties of a mattress (such as sleeping temperature) than others because they have a much greater tendency to sleep warm so for someone like this, smaller differences between different types of gel foam mattresses or constructions and materials that have higher odds of sleeping cooler may make a more significant difference or justify a higher price than it would for someone who was unlikely to sleep warm on any mattress that they purchased and any additional cooling from more costly gel foam materials or different mattress covers wouldnât be nearly as important. Another example would be motion separation because this may be very important to some couples who are disturbed by the motion of their partner while for those who sleep alone or those that the motion of a partner doesnât affect them it would be less important and components that isolate motion more effectively may not be worth an extra cost.
All of the options you listed are good quality/value choices but once you are down to âgood vs goodâ then which one is âbestâ for you would depend on all the objective, subjective, and even intangible criteria of your personal value equation that were most important to you and âjustifyâ the cost of a mattress purchase. Again ⌠there is no âformulaâ that can determine âvalueâ down to the last detail or replace âbest judgementâ because there will always be some unknowns remaining in any mattress purchase that can only be answered by your own longer term personal experience.
In the end ⌠the âvalueâ of a mattress purchase boils down to three main factors.
The first is how well you sleep on a mattress and how well it âmatchesâ all the unique criteria that are most important to you. Quality of sleep based on PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) is difficult to quantify or âmeasureâ but your own careful and objective testing with local mattresses or more detailed conversations with an online manufacturer in combination with testing local mattresses that they indicate are similar (if you canât test a specific mattress before you buy it) along with any exchange or return options you have available if your choice turns out to be âless than idealâ are the best way to assess this.
The second is how long a mattress lasts and continues to provide you with the PPP and quality of sleep that was the reason you purchased it in the first place relative to the price you paid. Knowing the relative quality/durability of the materials and identifying any âweak linkâ in a mattress in terms of durability is the most effective way to assess this part of âvalueâ. With your weight (over 200 lbs) ⌠minimizing or reducing the use of 4 lb memory foam in favor of higher density memory foam may be well worth considering. While 4 lb memory foam can be a preference for some people because it is often softer or faster responding than higher density memory foam ⌠this isnât always the case and the tradeoff is it would be less durable than higher density memory foams. The closer to the sleeping surface it is the more this may be a factor in the relative durability of the mattress. You can read more about the different types of memory foam that are independent of density in post #9 here and there is more about the many factors that can contribute to the relative durability of a mattress in post #4 here and the other posts it links to.
After these then all the other parts of âvalueâ that are part of each personâs personal value equation (including return or exchange policies and the price) are also important parts of the âvalueâ of a mattress purchase but are secondary to suitability and durability because a mattress that isnât a good match in terms of PPP and you canât sleep well on it or a mattress that is a good match in terms of PPP initially but uses lower quality materials which lose their comfort and support too quickly relative to the price you paid would both have little âvalueâ for most people.
Phoenix
[quote]The first is how well you sleep on a mattress and how well it âmatchesâ all the unique criteria that are most important to you. Quality of sleep based on PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) is difficult to quantify or âmeasureâ but your own careful and objective testing with local mattresses or more detailed conversations with an online manufacturer in combination with testing local mattresses that they indicate are similar (if you canât test a specific mattress before you buy it) along with any exchange or return options you have available if your choice turns out to be âless than idealâ are the best way to assess this.
The second is how long a mattress lasts and continues to provide you with the PPP and quality of sleep that was the reason you purchased it in the first place relative to the price you paid. Knowing the relative quality/durability of the materials and identifying any âweak linkâ in a mattress in terms of durability is the most effective way to assess this part of âvalueâ. With your weight (over 200 lbs) ⌠minimizing or reducing the use of 4 lb memory foam in favor of higher density memory foam may be well worth considering. While 4 lb memory foam can be a preference for some people because it is often softer or faster responding than higher density memory foam ⌠this isnât always the case and the tradeoff is it would be less durable than higher density memory foams. The closer to the sleeping surface it is the more this may be a factor in the relative durability of the mattress. You can read more about the different types of memory foam that are independent of density in post #9 here and there is more about the many factors that can contribute to the relative durability of a mattress in post #4 here and the other posts it links to.[/quote]
After reading your last post I began to search around the net looking for mattresses of higher density comfort layers. My search lead my to Selectfoam.com, their website seemed to be pretty well laid out where they grouped their mattresses into three different categories which helped me comprehend the information a little bit better. Most of my research has been that of mattresses that compare to the Cloud Luxe and many rely on a 4lb foam in the comfort layers to achieve this plush feeling. Now that im beginning to get a better understanding of Density vs Feel and the fact that a 4lb foam may not provide me with the best of value in my price range (1000 - 1500.00).
I still have a feeling that I maybe going about this the wrong way, because I seem to be putting more of a focus at the moment on your second factor which is its durability as opposed to PPP. it just maybe the fact that I need to know and want to understand and unfortunately donât have many resources in my immediate vicinity to do any real testing, or maybe I should have had a better understanding to target specific similar mattresses that I thought were of interest.
Well anywho!!!
Regalis HD 12"
1.5" 7.0lb (7.2lb)Soy SELECT-HD⢠Memory Foam
2.5" 5lb (5.3lb) Soy SELECT⢠Gel
color=#ff0000 [/color]
Micro-suede Coolmax Cover
(Compare this bed to the Tempur-Pedic RhapsodyBed and Rhapsody Breeze)
Conform Signature 12"
1.2" 5.3lb SELECT⢠gel memory foam
2.8" 5.3lb SELECT⢠Foam
color=#ff0000 [/color]
Stretch-knit CoolMax Cover
(The Conform Signature⢠12" has the same great look and feel of the Tempur-Pedic Contour Signatureâ˘, but with the Cool Sleeping Gel Foam experience of the Serta iComfortâ˘)
Phoenix is there anything you can add to further explain the two different combinations of comfort layers used in these mattresses? Would you also have any knowledge as to what the density is of the base that Selectfoam uses?
Is it fair to say that the combination of 7 and 5 in the comfort layers could possibly give me a softer feel then the 5.3 and 5.3?
Hi TandL,
4 lb memory foam can be a suitable choice if itâs used as part of a design that works well for you in terms of PPP but with your weight there would be a tradeoff in terms of durability (whether this was Tempurpedic or another manufacturer that used the same density memory foam). The closer to the top of a mattress the 4 lb memory foam is the more of an effect it would have on durability because the top layers of a mattress absorb more of the mechanical stress of sleeping and compression than the deeper layers. In other words ⌠4 lb memory foam in the top two inches would generally be less durable than the same 2" of 4 lb memory foam underneath a higher density memory foam. Either way though ⌠if I had the choice of a more durable mattress that was less suitable in terms of PPP and a less durable mattress that was more suitable in terms of PPP ⌠within reason I would choose the less durable mattress (particularly if it had a lower cost) because the âvalueâ of good quality sleep would be more important to me than having a more durable mattress where I didnât sleep as well. All of this is part of the considerations that would be part of your personal value equation.
Iâm not sure of the density of the base layers that Select Foam uses and it may be different with different mattresses but if memory serves me right I believe that at least some of them are 2.5 lb density but I would confirm this with them directly because specs can change and they will provide you with their current information if you ask them.
The Regalis will be similar to the Rhapsody in terms of itâs comfort and support and the Conform Signature will be similar to the Tempurpedic Contour Signature so you can get a good sense of each one by testing the equivalent Tempurpedic mattress. You can read a little more about the diferent ways that one mattress can match another in post #9 here but I would keep in mind that when the foams used are made by different manufacturers that the pressure relief/comfort and the support/alignment may be very similar but the âfeelâ of the mattresses may still be different because of the different characteristics of the different memory foams (response time, temperature sensitivity etc).
Phoenix
Lately I have been researching latex mattresses and we were able to feel a few of them out last time at Worley beds and wasnât particularly confident that it would be a good choice for âusâ. We liked the initial plush feel of the Cloud Luxe but I am not confident that a mattress of its caliber would be right for us in regards to PPP.
I have been consulting with a sales rep from an online reputable distributor about my concerns. (Iâm hesitant to relinquish them based on the fact that the mattress I was offered is not part of their line but they are willing to make an exception that Iâm not sure will be available to others.) The mattress originally consists of a quality HD base (I know the density but I donât want to give away my source) and two 3 inch layers of talalay blend latex and I was offered the opportunity to swap a layer of talalay for a layer of foam. They do have a layer of gel foam in the 5lb range that could be placed in the top layer substitution of the latex.
So basically what I am considering from bottom to top would be a base of 2lbs or greater a 3 inch layer of latex (talalay) and a 3 inch layer of 5lb gel foam which was recommended by the distributor. This would be a mattress in the vicinity of 12-14 total inches which I am thinking would be best for our total body weight of almost 400 lbs. Am I opening up a new can of worms by doing this. I feel real confident that this would be a good combination for us.
They offer a range of latex ild from 44 all the way down to 14. Would there be an ideal range of ild to consider for the latex layer, they have already recommended to me a specific ild. Im just wondering if part of the range would not be recomeded.
Hi TandL,
The way you wrote your info, it sounds like you want to try to evaluate latex mattresses for PPP and you used a Cloud Luxe (and maybe others) to do so.
As best I know, the Tempurdedic Cloud Luxe has no latex in it at all, and is all memory foam/polyfoam base. It would not help you assess latex since itâs memory foam.
If on the other hand you meant youve tested both memory foam by way of the Cloud Lux and separately latex in different mattresses, and liked some of the qualities of each, then ignore this post
This statement from you is correct⌠We like qualities of both. Just not sure if mixing and matching latex with foam in the comfort layers are something that is advisable and the fact that I would if I am going into uncharted territories and dabbling in the realms of a DIY mattress.
I have come to terms that I will be buying a mattress online; I have actually selected the distributer I will be buying it from based on their customer service, reputation, and return policy. Now I just need to make a conscious decision on what I think best fits T and I. Now that I have this newly acquired knowledge I feel like I can figure out a close approximate based on some of the mattresses I have been able to test out in the stores. Also am considering the fact that we are larger framed people and this can play a factor on our choice at least when it comes to durability.
I am confident that the quality of the mattress will be of high caliber and Iâm confident that their customer service will steer me in a direction that will be in my best interest as far as PPP. So even if my selection is not the best at least I know that there are options for me after my purchase. I also realize that there is always a percentage of risk when buying a mattress no matter where you buy it from and the only way you can be sure is after you have had the ability to sleep on it for a reasonable about of time. So there will always be that shot in the dark feeling.
Iâve done a fair amount of experimenting with different materials⌠Wool, latex, polyfoam, of different variety and constructions. For what itâs worth, Iâd treat it as a process where you iterate to the perfect mattress, and be prepared that you may need to have a few mistaken purchases that donât work out. I generally found / find it fun.
DIY is not even close to a sure thing, and if thereâs one thing Iâve learned itâs that imagining the theory of how it ought to feel has rarely lined up with how it does feel. There are so many factors, some of which you could change if you were a professional and had an endless supply of materials and constructions to play with. Some things I thought would be amazing turned out horrible, and some things I thought would be rediculous turned out to be amazing, and some things I thought were amazing (in spite of having very good alignment) caused back pain (I actually think the particular combo allowed my muscles to relax âtooâ much, it was sooooo relaxing, but that allowed a certain 1 point in my back to tweak to an extremely painful outcome- that 1 point in my back has been subject of X-rays and mriâs due to cronic pain ⌠So even tho I found the most heavenly relaxing combo I could imagine, my body said no to it). In the end, Iâd describe the process as more or less simple trial and error.
To support you testing various things, Iâd suggest that you get modular components that let you swap layers, covers, materials. Donât underestimate something as simple as the covering material / ticking something is in.
Hi TandL,
[quote]I have been consulting with a sales rep from an online reputable distributor about my concerns. (Iâm hesitant to relinquish them based on the fact that the mattress I was offered is not part of their line but they are willing to make an exception that Iâm not sure will be available to others.) The mattress originally consists of a quality HD base (I know the density but I donât want to give away my source) and two 3 inch layers of talalay blend latex and I was offered the opportunity to swap a layer of talalay for a layer of foam. They do have a layer of gel foam in the 5lb range that could be placed in the top layer substitution of the latex.
So basically what I am considering from bottom to top would be a base of 2lbs or greater a 3 inch layer of latex (talalay) and a 3 inch layer of 5lb gel foam which was recommended by the distributor. This would be a mattress in the vicinity of 12-14 total inches which I am thinking would be best for our total body weight of almost 400 lbs. Am I opening up a new can of worms by doing this. I feel real confident that this would be a good combination for us.[/quote]
This sounds very similar to one of the options you would have with the Brooklyn Bedding Aloe Alexis here which would also give you the ability to exchange a layer if one of them needed to be firmer or softer (in case this isnât an option in the one you are considering). They would all be good quality materials and would be suitable for higher weights.
SleepEz also has the option of using 5.5 lb memory foam to replace the top layer of latex in any of their latex mattresses and you would also retain the ability to exchange one of the layers if you needed to.
Other manufacturers may also offer similar options.
While this is mostly a matter of preference and PPP and the best way to know is your own testing or experience ⌠I would tend towards considerably firmer comfort layers than would be the ânormâ for lighter body types both because firmer layers are more durable than softer versions of the same material (all other things being equal) and because the odds are good that they would be more suitable for you as well. In most cases the manufacturer themselves would be the best source of guidance because they know they have more knowledge and experience with all the combinations and versions they offer than anyone else.
This is really a matter of preference and not a âbetter worseâ issue. There are many people who like combinations of memory foam with latex in various layer thicknesses or firmness levels better than either one of the other. Some like the memory foam over the latex and some may prefer a layer of memory foam under a layer of latex. Of course the âdevil is in the detailsâ because like many combinations of materials there a very wide variety of âfeelsâ that are possible and each combination may work well for one person and not the next. When you are in âuncharted territoryâ then the ability to exchange layers after a purchase may be an important part of your personal value equation and itâs good to see that this is something you are taking into account.
Phoenix
Thanks again phoenix âŚ
This statement left me a little confused, mainly the part where you mentioned âlighter body typesâ, did you mean to mention heavier body types which I would consider us to be in that category. Also you mention âconsiderably firmerâ, and the ânormâ could you elaborate what you would consider to be the ânormâ in reference to latex and its ild and what you would consider âconsiderably firmerâ. This would be greatly appreciated.
Hi TandL,
I meant that in your case, with your heavier body type, I would tend towards considerably firmer choices than other people who had lighter body types. I should have added âother people withâ in front of âlighter body typesâ to make it clearer.
The links in mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here are links to some of the site pages that provide some generic guidelines that may be useful in helping you understand some of the concepts involved in mattress design and theory but I would focus on your more detailed conversations with the manufacturer because otherwise you will get multiple suggestions that may be different and end up more confused than anything. With one mattress design, a certain ILD may be a reasonable option in a comfort layer but in another design that used a different combination of materials, a different ILD or thickness may be more suitable because every layer interacts with and affects every other layer. ILD numbers are also measured differently between different materials and ILD by itself is only one of the specifications of a material that will make a difference in terms of PPP (see post #2 here). Getting overinvolved in specs when you donât have the experience or reference points to really know what all the variables mean in your own personal experience will lead you down the path of overanalysis, information overwhelm, and paralysis by analysis. The many variables, unknowns, and personal preferences that are involved and the fact that it would involve a much more detailed phone conversation with each person and because I donât sell specific mattresses is the reason I donât provide specific comfort advice on the forum.
When you canât test a mattress in person then you are reliant on the knowledge and experience of the manufacturer you are dealing with (in combination with any testing you have done and any other helpful information you can provide them) and their âbest effortsâ to help you decide which of their own specific mattresses or options they provide would have the highest odds of success for you along with the exchange or return policies they offer so that you can use your own sleeping experience instead of testing the mattress before a purchase.
If you provided a specific reference point and feedback about PPP with a mattress you have tested where all the layers are known then I certainly donât mind making some generic suggestions about how you could change it to make it softer or firmer in various ways (comfort or support etc) or help identify any weak links or give you any âcautionsâ about the mattress I would consider but if you are working blind then you are much better off dealing only with the people who know the most about their mattresses and are in the best position to offer you the most suitable guidance. Multiple voices or âsuggestionsâ will generally only confuse the issue.
Phoenix
Thanks again Phoenix and thanks to you too dn.
Made my first two purchases in my quest for building a better bed.
Frame: 9 Leg Low Profile Bed Frame (Serta) from amazon.com
Foundation: KD Queen Wood Foundation from Mattresses.net
Hi TandL,
That covers two of the three main parts of your sleeping system (outside of a protector and any bedding) ⌠only one more (the mattress) to go
Phoenix
Baby steps on a pair of extremely cold feet!!!
Ok, here is the old mattress finally got around to uploading and posting pictures of what I have. Let me know what you think I currently have I am debating on whether to keep it or trash it. T purchased it on overstock prior to me coming into the picture. I took some pictures of the law label and in interesting picture of the bottom of the mattress. It does have a comfort layer of some sort glued to the base maybe 2" thick and a 8" base if I recall exactly unfortunately I forgot to take a photo of it. When I do lift the bed again I will photo it and add it to this post. It appears to be only around 3.5 to 4 years old.
Well after some serious digging into the archives it appears that the so called âcustomâ mattress that I am now considering at one time had a name, this is reassuring! The little of what I could find for reviews mainly on their facebook page appear to be promising, and I am now beginning to experience this warm and fuzzy feeling throughout my body. Could this be a sign?
