Hi Phoenix. I am still in the process of trying to get the right topper and had a quick question. Would the attached photos of the tags on the recent piece of latex that I received lead you to believe that it’s 100% natural talalay in soft, N2 density? The fact that it doesn’t have any seams seemed a bit strange and compared to the N1 that I was replacing, it is significantly firmer. I think I remember you writing that the difference between N1 and N2 is barely noticeable, so I’m wondering if I received the correct item. Thanks so much.
It looks to me like its N2 (which is in the label) but the number under the density is higher than N2 would be. I haven’t seen the label for an N2 in person so I don’t know for sure but if this came from a trusted manufacturer I would have no reason to doubt them and the label itself is an LI label.
LI has 2 mold sizes which are twin XL and queen. The queens are less common and sometimes need to be special ordered but they certainly exist.
The difference between N1 and N2 would be quite noticeable. You may be referring to the difference between the 100% natural and blended in the same ILD which would be barely noticeable to most people.
It seems to me that you received N2 (which is listed where it’s supposed to be on the label) … although I don’t know why it lists the density as 5.5 lbs. It’s a curiosity that I’ll have to ask them about.
Thanks so much for your insight. I totally misunderstood about the N1 and N2 not being a lot different and I was really surprised at how much firmer the N2 is, which is why I questioned if I received the right product. Plus, the density number that you mentioned seemed wrong for a soft, based on what I had remembered reading here . Anyway, I guess I’m in the unfortunate position of being somewhere between an N1, which is way too smooshy and my rear sinks in too far if I’m on my back and an N2, which is a bit too firm and my shoulders ache and arms fall asleep if I’m on my side. I have to decide which one to keep in the next couple days and I’m thinking my best choice would be to keep the N2 and add 1" of N1 over it. Do you think this what you would do? Thanks again for your help with this never-ending project.
Yes the N1 is very soft and there are many people who don’t sell it at all and start their choices at N2 because at these low ILD levels they prefer the greater durability of blended Talalay.
I would tend to call the retailer where you bought it and ask them if all their N1 toppers are all listed as 5.5 density (because of the low probability that it could be a mistake from Latex international itself). If I am in the middle of two choices I would tend towards the firmer one. Like all toppers it will soften over time (latex less than other materials) and then if your experience in actually sleeping on it over time indicates that you need a little more softness then you can always add another inch of either N1 or N2 (more thickness also creates a softer surface so another inch of N2 would also make it softer).
Just had to pop into this thread to say that I’m nearly in your same situation, Debbielc21, and I’m finding these posts to be very valuable so thank you both. I too have a 6" very firm latex mattress and am working on finding my perfect comfort layer(s) for my size (5’5" 145lbs).
I’m considering this foundation on Amazon and wonder if you know anything about it: Amazon.com
I tested something similar at a store some time ago, and really liked the springy feel. I’m waiting to hear from the company regarding how far apart the slats are. It gets great reviews on Amazon, tho wondered if it gets the Phoenix seal of approval. I’m buying latex slabs as I can afford to – because of cost and heaviness – stacked single pads are easier for me to move around. Right now I have a 3" extra firm and a 3" wool topper. I hope to get another latex layer soon.
It’s been mentioned a few times on the forum and I’ve always suggested looking elsewhere based on my research and on the fact that it just doesn’t appear to be strong enough or particularly suitable for a latex mattress to me although it does seem that the slats are less than 3" apart. I would personally look for something stronger and wouldn’t take the risk of buying it.
You can see some feedback about it from one of the members who bought it at the end of post #9 here.
There were also a few comments in the feedback from people that it wasn’t very strong or it broke and it certainly doesn’t look very strong to me and with only a 600 lb weight limit I personally wouldn’t trust it.
I have ordered a king 13" latex mattress from SleepingOrganic in Charleston, SC. They will be coming to set everything up for me. However, I’m second guessing myself on whether I should have ordered two x-long twins instead of the king. Changing my order would only involve two covers instead of one, since the latex is split down the middle.
Here’s the problem. My side of the bed will be on an adjustable base. My husband insisted he preferred to sleep flat (I’m sure the cost was involved) so his side of the bed will be on our original box spring.
The beds will be together in a four poster bed, so keeping the bottom sheet a king sheet is much easier when changing the sheets. In fact, I’m not sure with my back issues, that I’d be able to manage changing two twin bottom sheets.
Do you know of anyone who has used a king latex mattress successfully with the beds being adjusted separately? I should mention, that I would never be raising the back rest all the way up. I don’t read or watch TV in bed. I’m just hoping to a little height under my head and legs.
I think getting the two twin covers would give me the option of making the bottom sheet as either one or two.
What do you think?
I don’t think this would be a good idea at all and I think you would be risking damaging the mattress with two separate bases underneath in two different positions.
At least this wouldn’t damage the mattress but depending on the difference between the sides I would think the sheets may not stay in place as well either and there is a chance depending on the difference between the sides that they could also be damaged or ripped if he were to sleep in the middle area where there would be nothing underneath them.
I think that two twins would definitely be a better idea than taking the risk of harming the mattress even though it comes with it’s own tradeoffs (the gap in the middle of the bed).
Thanks, I found it last night. Too bad. I like the idea of wood instead of metal, and I loved the responsiveness of the one I tried in the store (don’t know if it was the same brand but very similar in look). Felt like sleeping on air. I’ve looked at and read reviews about the Ikea Laxeby and it doesn’t sound like it has much “spring”. I guess I’ll keep looking. I have yet to make it over to European Sleep Works, tho they are usually out of my price range, but I’d like to see their slat system and compare it against the Ikea one. Having a thin slab (3" of approx 33 idl) plus my snugglemate isn’t quite enough not to feel the foundations and am a little leary of anything too stiff. I know I’ll have another layer in my future, tho not sure how soon that will be. I tend to feel everything and want a foundation that gives – which I never realized until trying that other one out. I’ve always slept on firm, firm, firm, which seemed fine for a lot of my life, but not so much now.
This brings another question to mind. I do plan to spend more time studying here to figure out if my next layer should be toward the med firm or plush, and wonder if you feel I should get the next layer before I decide on a foundation or get the foundation first? Right now they’re on my old mattress because the solid foundation I have for the mattress is just too hard on it’s own.
In most cases … a foam mattress (whether memory foam, polyfoam, or latex) does best with a rigid non flexing foundation with no spring at all so that the mattress and the foam can do what it is designed to do. In your case however with such a thin “mattress” then the foundation underneath will act as part of the sleeping system itself. The Laxeby has the advantage of being able to adjust the tension in different areas so that you can customize it to your own preferences but it also needs something to sit on top of.
Even though I normally wouldn’t recommend it … if the Handy Living really is a solution that in combination with your mattress provides you with the best PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) … then it’s at least a low enough cost that it may be worth the risk and it may work or be worth considering as a short term solution given the rest of your current sleeping system. Everything is a tradeoff and sometimes it can be worth going with a lower cost or lower quality solution if that’s the best available for the moment. After all … all of this is about how well you sleep and sometimes a shorter term solution that provides you with what you want can be a good stepping stone to something better down the road.
The most common or “standard design” would be the softest layer at the top progressing towards the firmest at the bottom. There are variations on this which could be a preference of certain people but this would have the best odds of success “on average”. The most common layering for most people of average height and weight would be 2-3" of “soft” over 6" of medium or firm (which can be in one or more layers and a single ILD or several). More specific than this though would require your own personal testing on local mattresses where you could test the various combinations you were considering. For example you could prefer a much firmer surface layer than most people and use your current layer as the comfort layer even though most people would find it too firm. There are too many variables between people to use a “formula” which applies to any individual.
I heard back from the retailer and it turns out that it was a clerical error on the label and the true density is a 4.0, which I’m told equates to a 24 ILD. Too bad that I had to receive the firmest possible N2, but that’s sort of how my latex luck has been. The retailer has given me the weekend to make my decision and I just had one more question for you before I do. Although the N1 is quite a bit more comfortable and is working well for my shoulders, I’m concerned that it’s not going to be good for my lower back in the long run, especially if it softens even a little more with time. So even though it’s too firm for me, I’m thinking of keeping the N2 (I have to keep one of them) but I’m trying to determine how much more it’s going to cost to make it work. Since this N2 is right on the verge of being a medium, do you think that 1" of N1 or N2 will make a significant difference for my shoulders or is it likely that I’ll need 2"? It’s pretty clear that any softening of the current N2 over time will not be enough. As always, thanks… I really appreciate any advice that you have.
That makes much more sense to me. I was curious about the discrepancy so I talked to someone who would likely know and they suspected the same thing. The N2 part of the label would be correct and they also thought that the density information would be the one that was wrong.
Just to clarify as well though and make sure my understanding of what you have tried is up to date and accurate …
You used a 2" N1 topper which was too firm (probably because you were going through it and feeling the firmer layers underneath).
You now have both a 3" N1 topper and a 3" N2 topper that you have been trying.
Based on your comments is seems that the 3" N1 topper is working well in all aspects and your only concern is that it may soften too much over time. Is this correct?
The 3" N2 topper is also providing good support but you are feeling pressure points in your shoulders?
While normally I would suggest choosing slightly firmer if you are uncertain about a choice … because the N1 seems to be providing good pressure relief in your shoulders and good alignment under your hips (correct?) … I would tend to go with what is working the best in spite of any potential difference in durability. Don’t forget that the durability comparisons are in reference to other latex and latex in any ILD is a more durable material than other types of foam. Sometimes it’s important to choose what your body is telling you is “best” even if it involves a potential tradeoff in durability. You could have someone slide their hand under the gap in the small of your back with the N1 to make sure that it was filled in well (you shouldn’t be able to slide your hand under easily) and if that was the case and given your much lighter weight I would probably tend towards the N1.
If you did go with the N2 … then I would use your longer term experience (at least over a minimum of 30 days so you were most likely past any initial softening and adjustment period) to decide on the thickness and softness of any additional layers but the odds are that you probably wouldn’t need more than an inch more.
It’s never really possible to know these things for sure because of the variables involved but this would be my “best guess”.
Yes, all of that is correct except for the N1 working well in all aspects. I don’t think it’s giving good support under my hips and I’m concerned that it could lead to low back problems with continued use, but it’s the only one so far to give enough under my shoulders so that they don’t ache. Overall, I think that my hips/low back are better off on N2 and my shoulders are better on the N1, but I’ll give that low back test that you mentioned a try. I’m suddenly realizing the benefit of the companies that offer zoning Do you think that the mattress has gotten too thick at this point (9") for any tweaks in the foundation to be helpful? I haven’t bought one yet because I was waiting to see how this all worked out. Thanks again.
A topper (or a comfort layer) isn’t supposed to give support under the hips … this is what I call “primary” support and is mainly the job of the deeper layers which are the ones that “stop” the hips from sinking down too far. Your hips are supposed to “go through” the comfort layers to different degrees. Of course if the topper in combination with the mattress comfort layers is too thick and soft then it can “allow” the hips to travel too far before it reaches the support layers (particularly with back sleeping) which is when you tend to have alignment issues in the hips/pelvis. Thickness and softness work together in other words and don’t act alone. The topper is more responsible for what I call “secondary” support which is the lighter support that is under the recessed curves of the body (waist and small of the back) which don’t have the same weight as the hips/pelvis as well as allowing the wider lighter areas of the body (like the shoulders) to sink in enough until the larger surface area of the torso comes into firmer contact with the mattress and “stops” further sinking in. This is why you need to sink in “enough” to have both good pressure relief in the hips and shoulders as well as good secondary support in the “gaps” because they act hand in hand.
In other words … I wouldn’t be as concerned with how well the topper supported the hips because this isn’t its main job anyway. Alignment which is how evenly you are sinking in not just how much is always the goal. If it’s allowing your shoulders to sink in enough and your hips to be “stopped” in time that you are in good alignment and you have no symptoms then I would consider this to be successful. If you really are concerned or you have symptoms that indicate that the hips/pelvis area is “travelling” too far before it reaches the deeper firmer support layer (particularly on your back which is where this would be more of an issue) then either thickness may need to be decreased (which in your case may not allow your shoulders to sink in enough on your side) or firmness may need to be increased (which may help “stop” your hips/pelvis a little quicker).
I was surprised to see that a foundation like the Powerstack is so highly recommended with a latex mattress. The reason I was looking into this is that I am looking at the Evergreen from MyGreenMattress and Tim sells the PowerStack to go with it. After all of my reading here I assumed that the spaces in between the wires was too great, but if this is what Tim recommends and sells then I’ll go with it if the Evergreen winds up being my choice. Maybe this works because the Evergreen is two sided and the quilted cover on the bottom helps keep the latex from sagging through the gaps. Do you know if that is the case, or would this foundation work for most latex mattresses?
Thanks.
Do you think that the mattress has gotten too thick at this point (9") for any tweaks in the foundation to be helpful? I haven’t bought one yet because I was waiting to see how this all worked out. Thanks again.