The start of our search for mattress comfort....

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
5

Thanks for all of the recommendations and informative threads. I’ve done quite a bit of reading over the last day on this subject. I’ve also called or researched most of the factory direct manufacturers that are in state. I have found interest in a few of them, especially columbia bedding store and charleston bedding.

What has really caught my interest is Foam Order that I mentioned before. I called their showroom and got a very knowledgeable gentleman on the phone. After discussing some of my needs and comfort requirement as well as budget he pointed me toward their Larkspur mattress. The specific composition of the model we discussed is comprised of two layers of foam at 3" thick per for a total thickness of 6" of mattress. He seemed to think the “medium” variety would suit my needs well, but that of course it was impossible to know until I had more of a preference on the different kinds of foam , density and ILD numbers. This I agree with especially considering suggestions from you and articles on this site.

Anyway, I was hoping to get some opinions on the composition of this mattress and the price point of which it falls within.

Larkspur mattress.
6" thick, Eastern King size
base layer is poly v34 3" thick (Density: 2.6 lb/ft3, ILD: 34.) Their premium poly foam has a 15 year warranty against any dipping, flattening, or softening
Comfort layer is Dunlop “natural sense” all natural latex at 28 ILD (also available in 25 ILD in this variety)
Comes with cotton inner cover to contain both foam layers, and a zip up outer cover
This mattress delivered with 50% off shipping, and he applied a 10% discount code comes to $970

The person I spoke with seemed to think that for myself and my wife that we wouldn’t need any more than 6" of mattress for sufficient support. Especially in this range of firmness. I would be perfectly happy with the height of this bed on my box spring.

I especially liked the fact that this company was selling me the foam, not the mattress with a very vague notion of what’s in it. I also discussed making the comfort layer of progressively softer latex to a talalay top layer of a low ILD number. He said it could significantly change the feel, but that it’s completely subjective.

Anyway, my first step is still finding somewhere that I can try mattresses where they can show me the compositions of them. That way I can get a feel for what I like. Ultimately though, the people at foam order have impressed me.

6

Hi rockcreation16,

If I was in San Francisco and was able to try the mattress and confirm that a 6" mattress with a dunlop comfort layer worked well for me … I would likely give it strong consideration. I also agree with you that the staff at Foam Order are good people (I’ve usually talked with Alan). Ordering it online though … especially with a thickness of only 6" … I would be a little hesitant unless your testing indicated it may work well for you. There is no doubt that the quality of the foam at Foam Order is very high and he may well be right that 6" would work well (it would certainly be a very firm mattress). While value is always a personal decision … here are a couple of similar but slightly thicker mattresses for reference …

https://www.amazon.com/gp/browse.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&me=APCUWEOU23BHI This uses Talalay latex in the comfort layer in your choice of ILD in the comfort layer.

http://www.overnightmattress.com/ItemMatrix.asp?GroupCode=CBAML&MatrixType=2&selelement1=undefined&selelement2=undefined&selelement3=undefined&selelement4=undefined&selelement5=undefined This allows you to order any ILD of Talalay latex you wish (or memory foam) and comes with a free exchange if you don’t like what you ordered.

Phoenix

7

The ultimate dreams mattress looks like a very good value. The reviews in every place I can find them are overwhelmingly positive. What are your thoughts on this mattress in as far as quality if I find that this type of foam is what I find comfortable?

8

Hi rockscreation16,

I think the quality for this price level is very high. The base foam is higher quality even than many mattresses in a much higher budget range (2.35 lbs) and the comfort layer is talalay latex which is one of the best quality foams available. The only “very slight” negative for me is that it uses 1.5" of quilting polyfoam in the quilting. This is a minor issue (just over the 1" maximum I normally recommend) but it’s pre-compressed with the quilting (increasing durability) and is used to fill in the quilting layers to create a nicer appearance and add a little bit of softer hand feel to the mattress.

In addition to this … the ILD of the latex can be chosen by the customer.

I also know the manufacturer and think highly of him.

Overall … I think this is exceptional value in this price range.

Phoenix

9

I’m very strongly considering the ultimate dreams as my purchase. I’m not quite ready to pull the trigger yet.

What are your thoughts on this mattress if I were considering a memory foam type?
https://www.amazon.com/LinenSpa-Triple-Layer-Viscoelastic-Mattress-Warranty/dp/B0050JL4TC/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hg_6

I think that at this point I’m in a place torn between memory foam and latex. I’m thinking that as my first purchase I’m willing to spend 600-800 dollars on one of these less expensive mattresses so that I won’t be heartbroken if I decide I just don’t like one or the other and want to move on. If I end up liking it then I might use it for a couple of years and upgrade to a quality mattress of that type.

Considering that I like the soft feel I get from memory foam, what firmness level do you think would be preferable in the ultimate dreams latex comfort layer? Through trying out different latex and memory foam beds in the last few days, I feel that I’ve determined my firmness preference to be soft. That also depends on the bed though. As long is there is a decent core that will push on my lumbar well, very soft comfort layers are fine with me. The only thing I want to avoid is feeling like I’m being folded up. That’s the feeling I get from some older memory foam mattresses and when I’ve put cheap and thick memory foam toppers on my crappy spring mattresses.

Anyway, I’m heavily leaning toward the Ultimate Dreams mattress, but I still want to give memory foam a shot too because I like the “sleeping in the mattress” feel. I just want to sink into the mattress evenly.

Any thoughts?

10

Hi rockscreation16,

There are several guidelines I would follow before buying any memory foam mattress to make sure you avoid the worst choices.

  1. Never buy a mattress that includes memory foam without knowing whether the foam has been certified by CertiPur, Oeko-Tex or a reputable testing agency for both chemicals and offgassing. The minimum alternative is to make sure that you can verify that it is North American made. If the outlet you are looking at doesn’t include this information and/or won’t give it to you with a phone call (or if this information isn’t publicly available) … pass them by. There are too many who do to spend any time here.

  2. Never buy a mattress that includes memory foam without knowing the density and layering of the memory foam layers. Density is a main indicator of the quality and durability of memory foam and will also affect the feel and response (although the memory foam chemical formula will play an even bigger role in how it feels and responds as you can see in post #9 here). The thickness and layering of the memory foam is a key part of how suitable a certain memory foam mattress may be for your weight, body shape, and sleeping positions. If the outlet you are looking at doesn’t include this information and/or won’t give it to you with a phone call (or if this information isn’t publicly available) … pass them by. There are too many who do to spend any time here.

  3. Never buy a mattress that includes memory foam without knowing the type and quality of the support layers underneath it (either an innerspring, polyfoam, or latex foam). The support layers play a key role in how well a mattress will keep you in alignment and in the feel, performance, quality, durability, and value of a mattress that uses memory foam in the comfort layers. It is just as important as the memory foam itself. If the outlet you are looking at doesn’t include this information and/or won’t give it to you with a phone call (or if this information isn’t publicly available) … pass them by. There are too many who do to spend any time here.

  4. Use the least amount of memory foam that is suitable for the pressure relief you need and never buy any memory foam which is under 4 lbs. There are too many good options that use 4 lb or higher even in the lower budget ranges to use the lowest grades of memory foams under 4 lbs density. Even 4 lb is “mid range” in terms of durability and the best quality memory foams are usually 5 lbs and up but in some cases thinner layers of 4 lb foam are often used in combination with higher density memory foams to create a more responsive (faster reacting) layer against the body or dfferent “feels” in a mattress. They are also used in lower budget mattresses where the use of 5 lb foams would increase the price of the mattress beyond the targeted price range. It can also be a good idea for those over 200 lbs to reduce the amount of 4 lb memory foam in the top layer or limit their choices to 5 lb density and higher.

The Lucid possibly fails on #1 (where is the foam made and is it certified), and #3 (what is the density of the support layer), and certainly fails on #4 (includes 3 lb memory foam). Even if #1 and #3 can be confirmed to be OK with a phone call, #4 by itself is enough for me to exclude considering it.

I would definitely pass it by.

The softest talalay latex is 14 ILD and this is closest to the average ILD of most memory foams but this can also be very misleading because memory foam is a delayed response foam and feels much firmer until it becomes softer with body heat and the feel is very different. 14 ILD would normally be used only by very light people and even then the normal softness level for talalay latex is usually in the range of 19 - 24 ILD with a few people going softer and a few going firmer. Weight also plays a big role in how soft a particular ILD will feel. In your case … I’d probably play it safe and go with 19 ILD and with the extra quilting foam on top you would also likely be OK with 24. A little firmer than the softest ILD would also be better for her stomach sleeping but not so firm that it interferes with pressure relief on her side. You are heavier so firmer foam will feel softer to you.

It would be a great help for you to test the Pure Latex Bliss mattresses which mostly use 19 ILD on top in different thicknesses for different models and the 2" and 3" topper they offer is 14 ILD. It would give you a great chance to see what the different ILD’s feel like.

Phoenix

11

With your opinion and personal relationship to the owner of the Ultimate Dreams mattress, it seems like the safest way to go for the low price range that it’s in. I had planned on a higher budget, but with the quality of this mattress I feel that it’s a good place for me to start. That way I can get a personal preference built up on that type of mattress.

Either way, I can promise you that it’s 10x better than the POS I’m sleeping on now. Just woke up and my back is screaming now…

I certainly think that I’ll try out the Pure Latex Bliss mattress to get a feel for latex ILDs. There is a Bed Man store in North Myrtle Beach. That’s only about 30 miles for me and freeway all the way there. They carry the Pure Latex Bliss. Maybe they’ll have a good enough selection there to give me a variety of ILDs to try. When testing out the Pure Latex Bliss, will they have as much polyfoam in the quilting? If not, what are some things to keep in mind when trying them out? At least in comparison to the ultimate dreams mattress.

12

Hi Rockscreation16,

I didn’t know that Bedman also carried the Pure latex bliss. That’s good news since according to their website they also carry Eastman House and Restonic, both of whom make mattresses with latex comfort layers (and likely some polyfoam on top). If they carry these as well and can provide the layering details, it should give you some further testing options.

The PLB mattresses use different layering patterns and thicknesses in their different models but the top surface of their mattresses use various thicknesses of 19 ILD talalay. They have no polyfoam above the latex and they also use a non quilted ticking so you would be directly on the latex. The Nature, Nutrition, and Beautiful would be good models to try without a topper (they have different layers of 19 ILD on top with different layers and firmness of latex underneath) and the pamper would be a good model to try with the 2" and 3" topper on top (it’s the firmest mattress with only 1" of 19 ILD on top and would give you the best idea of what 14 ILD latex feels like). If the store doesn’t have the PLB specs, then I have them and can give you the specs of the ones you like the most.

The main goal of your testing would be primarily testing for the difference in pressure relief and feel between the two different ILD’s of latex (14 and 19). Knowing your overall preference between the different models with different layer thicknesses and the overall makeup of the layers below (which will affect the feel of the top layers) will help point to the most appropriate ILD choice for the Ultimate Dreams. It will also give you a good sense of how an all talalay latex mattress feels.

Phoenix

13

Just to update on my progress…

I was out of town for the weekend and happened across a couple of mattress stores around some of the places I visited. My wife wasn’t there so I didn’t do any intensive testing really.

The more places I visit, the more it seems like mattress sales reps don’t have a clue what they’re selling for the most part.

Anyway, mostly all of what I came across was memory foam mattresses.

I do think it helped me get a feel for the kind of firmness that I prefer.

I tried several different makes and varieties of memory foam mattresses. I found that I liked the feel of the firmer tempur cloud. I think it was the supreme. The tempur luxe was entirely too soft. I got that folding up feeling I talked about before. The first place I visited was “relax your back”. They had a house brand mattress that they compared to the tempur cloud. It did have a similar feel, but their foam responded much more quickly than the tempur pedic. I found that I liked the faster response better. All of the tempur mattresses felt as if they were locking me into place, and I didn’t really feel that was something I would like to sleep on for extended periods.

I do like the bit of poly foam quilting on top of the cloud. That coupled with the preference for a quicker responding foam sounds like another point for the ultimate dreams mattress.

I did try a “Sealy posture pedic spring free 100% latex core Trade Wind Resort” mattress of my brothers. It was comfortable enough, but I did feel like there was a very plush layer that would allow you straight through to a much firmer one where I could feel some pressure building on hips, tailbone etc…

If I were to consider some memory foam alternatives, are there any in the price range around the ultimate dreams mattress? $600-$800 If I seek any memory foam alternatives I think I would want a faster responding type. Would a faster response per same weight in memory foam generally indicate a lower quality and durability in the foam?
If I want a faster responding foam, should I just cast aside memory foam all together?

14

Hi rockscreation16,

Unfortunately … this is pretty much the norm. With a day or two on this site and forum, most people would probably know more than most “typical” mattress salespeople and some of your questions will get some pretty strange looks and/or strange answers … or you will see some eyes starting to glaze over with an implied … huh??? :slight_smile:

The luxe has 4.75" of memory foam and the supreme has 4". While the types of memory foam they use is different (the luxe uses the HD foam under the ES), they both have fairly thick layers of memory foam. The Cloud uses 2.8" of memory foam and would be firmer yet (less isolated from the support layers).

One of the difficulties of memory foam is that it you can sink further into it over the course of the night. This is why no matter what density of memory foam you use … layer thickness is important. I would tend to use thinner layers of memory foam when possible rather than thicker layers. With the Luxe … the thicker layers of memory foam are somewhat “compensated” for by the use of denser foam underneath but there would still be a risk of sinking in too far over the course of the night (or in your case it didn’t take that long).

Don’t forget that this would only relate to memory foam rather than polyfoam or latex. All memory foam is soft once it responds (with differing degrees of softness and response) and the “firmness” you are talking about is partly a “feeling” of the type of memory foam but is more likely to do with the thickness of the memory foam and the support layers underneath and how much you can feel them as well.

Are you sure you mean the cloud? None of the Tempurpedics have any polyfoam above the memory foam and in looking at the Relax the back models I don’t see any of them which have any polyfoam either. I do like some of the materials they are using though (It sounds like their memory foam is Aerus and that they are also using Energia in their Pure Relax mattress which is a very high quality polyfoam which is both soft and durable). Which mattress did you mean that has a polyfoam quilting?

The problem with the old Sealy Springfree line is that they used lower quality latex (blended dunlop with a higher level of SBR than I would prefer) but even worse is the amount of polyfoam they had on top of the latex. The Trade Wind Resort is themost “plush and was the worst and used 4” of soft polyfoam on the top of the mattress so people are really sleeping on the polyfoam not so much the latex. There is 1/2" of latex buried in the polyfoam so the upper layers are 4.5" and then you get to the firmer core layers. Not so good!

Post #12 here has some good options in memory foam that are in the price range. Durability is most closely related to density. Quicker response and other differences between memory foams can be formulated into any density although generally the faster response foams are in the 4 lb density range (meaning that they would be a little less durable than 5 lb memory foams). If you had two good quality foams of the same density but different characteristics … then they would be roughly the same durability but the greater mechanical stress that the “softer” foams allowed may lead to them wearing out a little quicker (in the same way that some people who are heavier and compress a foam more or move more will wear out a foam faster than those who are lighter or move less).

Hope this helps

Phoenix

15

This is definitely the case in most every visit to various mattress stores…

This was actually something the representative told me. The top layer felt more responsive and less conforming to me than memory foam. So, I assumed this was a piece of knowledge he actually did know. There I go assuming again. I’m definitely talking about the tempur pedic and the relax your back brand.

I was a much bigger fan of the relax your back brand than the tempur pedic as far as feel goes.

I’d almost like to see the ultimate dreams mattress but with a 1" memory foam top layer as opposed to the poly that’s on it.

I’m going to continue looking through the list you posted about memory foam mattress manufacturers as well…

Thanks again for your knowledge on the matter!

16

I’m finding that any of the decent memory foam mattresses are going to end up with a cost of nearly double that of the ultimate dreams mattress. I also feel that for longevity, especially in lower budget mattresses, latex will most definitely provide me with a mattress much less prone to sagging and softening over short periods of time. After trying some more memory foam mattresses, my wife and I have both decided that memory foam is not really what we want at this time. The idea that it’s rather hard to rotate throughout the night on most memory foam is not desirable for us.

Latex is my choice. The only fight left is determining which ILD is right for us in the latex top layer.

It seems like I’m going to have a very hard time finding any mattress, memory foam or latex, that will compete with the value of the ultimate dreams latex.

Again, phoenix. I can’t thank you enough for giving me all of the information you have. Taking the time to respond in the detail that you do every time as well as pointing me in the direction of relevant information and products that support your comments is way more than I would have expected. The mattress underground is truly the best place on the internet to find truthful information about anything you need to know on the subject of mattresses. Thanks for the crazy amount of time you spend on replying to our uninformed questions!!!

Is there any way to donate to this site and cause?

17

Hi rockscreation16,

Thanks for the great comments. Rather than “donating” I’d love it if you told others that are trapped in the quagmire of mattress shopping that … just maybe … there’s a way they could get some better information and find better value mattresses :slight_smile:

For what it’s worth, the “average” range of ILD’s that most people would likely choose is in the range of 19 - 24. Lighter people generally perceive similar foams to be firmer than heavier people because there’s not as much weight to cause them ato sink in as much. The polyfoam quilting would create a little softer feel so 24 may be a little “safer” (with roughly equal choices a little firmer is usually better than a little softer) but it may also be a little firmer than people who are used to cushy pillowtops or softer foams in the top of their mattress are used to and for some this may be a bit of an adjustment.

Phoenix

18

I’ve ordered the ultimate dreams latex mattress. I am currently in the process of discussing ILD numbers for the latex layer. So far it’s been quite a pleasant experience, and I’m excited to try this thing out.

Will update with results from our conversation.

19

Hi rockscreation16,

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I’ll be interested to know the choice you make with the comfort layer and also your feedback once you get it.

Phoenix

20

I certainly will update with my feedback of the mattress once I get it.

In most of my conversation with Chuck so far he’s been using a scale of 1 to 10 that they use to help people convey what they are looking for in softness. When telling him the ILD numbers I was looking for he said it would be a 6 on his scale. 1 being crazy stiff and 10 being cloud soft. So, it should be right at a 22ILD.

I’ve asked him to give me the actual ILD numbers on the latex layer for my own sanity… haha
Will update with those numbers when I get them as well.

21

Got the mattress in yesterday!!

We decided on a 6 on his scale for the talalay layer… 1 being a rock and 10 being a cloud. It was an actual 24ILD

My first impression of the mattress was very good. That’s after I killed myself dragging all 120lbs of it in and unwrapping it by myself because I didn’t have the patience to wait for help…

It actually felt a little bit more firm than I expected. After I went to bed for the night I felt that it wasn’t really that firm at all. It’s just that It was pressing back in places that aligned my spine which I hadn’t really experienced before. This is actually exactly what I asked for anyway. It had great pressure relief and very good alignment.

I did have a bit of a sore back this morning, but I realize that your body has to get used to a new sleeping surface. It also didn’t help dragging the mattress inside in the first place.

Thoughts?

Anyway, overall… I’m very happy. I’ll just have to see what happens over the next few nights…

22

Hi rockscreation16,

Latex has a somewhat unusual combination of softness and firmness and for most people it’s noticeably different from the mattresses they’re used to sleeping on and can take some time to adjust from what you had and the “body memory” that has developed. I still remember how strange it was at first when I could feel much more support under my waist (on my side) and lumbar curve (on my back) than I was used to. I liked it but it was different from what I was used to and in the first couple of weeks I was always trying to “notice” everything that could be noticed about my mattress.

I also have some personal experience with lugging a heavy latex mattress up stairs (in my case the core was latex too) although in my case I had another person to help. It’s not only heavy … it can be pretty floppy as well.

I think you made a good choice in terms of your ILD and I tend to go a little firmer than softer if I have “equal” choices between two ILD options.

I’m looking forward to your feedback after a few more days … once you’ve recovered from the delivery :slight_smile:

Phoenix

23

I, too am new to mattress research and am very happy to find this site free to consumers. Also, I’m a total Newbie when it comes to chats, forums, etc., though I’ve tried in the past & have really messed up as to where I’m supposed to post a comment or start a new “thread,” so please bear with me if I goof up & please don’t yell at me! Gentle guidance, however is encouraged.

This site offers an overwhelming amount of info, & I see that specific brands are mentioned… I don’t know how I would do a search on this site to find info on specific companies, so am putting my question here.

I am looking at an online retailer called The Habitat Furnishing. Is anyone familiar with their product, & if so, what’s your opinion?

My husband & I have been sleeping on a standard king Select Comfort bed that was top of the line when we bought it 11 years ago. But, besides the fact that we have moved several times & apparently it hasn’t been reassembled properly (bulges at sides, makes sound and “waves” when we turn or thrash about, which it didn’t do when first bought), we find it is no longer firm enough and we are always too hot. Also, since I am a recent breast cancer survivor, I don’t want to be exposed to any unnecessary chemicals, & I don’t know the material of the many layers on the bed.

My research thus far has me thinking that the safest product for me would be 100% latex, with a minimum of glued secondary layers. The Habitat Furnishing latex appears to be a good candidate, but I can only go by their information. Because my hubby & I both want a firm bed, their 6" mattress sounds right. But 6"?!? That hardly seems much more than a cot!
And their prices are significantly lower than other 100% natural latex mattresses I’ve come across, so I can’t help but wonder why.

We also need a mattress that is cooling; we are both too warm at night. I was considering one of the new gel memory foams, like the Serta one. But memory foam doesn’t seem as safe for me as the pure latex. And we’ve used some little cooling gel pads that you can put on your pillow; and while they start out nice & cool, they absorb our abundance of body heat & end up feeling as warm/hot as any heating pad I’ve used! I’m concerned that may be the case with cooling gel mattresses… The Habitat Furnishing people claim that their genuine latex (from Sri Lanka, btw), is a cooler sleep than memory foam or synthetic latex.

So, we need minimal chemicals, coolness, and good support. Input from anyone who reads this is gratefully appreciated! Thank you.

24

Hi Cyd,

the first place to start is post #1 here which has all the basic information, steps, and guidelines you will need to make the best possible choices. As you will see … a mattress is only as good as its construction and the quality or the materials inside it so shopping by brand is among the worst ways to choose a mattress. having said that … there are many smaller independent brands across the country that either sell factory direct or through better sleep shops that tend to use higher quality materials and have better value than the major brands and most of the mainstream industry.

A forum search on Habitat (you can just click this) will bring up many comments and feedback about them but in general they are not in the “best value” group as some of the other online options you have available to you IMO (which have a link in the “read first” post). To search the forum you just click the “search forum” tab just under the main menu (not the “search main site” window which doesn’t search the forum), change the “find posts from” setting to “any date” (unless you only want to search posts for the last year), enter your search words, and click the search button.

Post #2 here also has more information and links which can help you answer the question “how safe is safe enough for me?” but this a difficult topic with no clear answers (in spite of what many people would have you believe) and for those who are more inclined towards natural materials then some combination that includes latex and/or innersprings and/or natural fibers is usually the best choice.

Many of your basic questions are answered in the “read first” link but if you have specific questions that aren’t answered there then feel free to post them here.

I would also make sure that you include some local testing in your research and once you get to step 3 if you let me know your city or zip I’d be happy to let you know of any of the better options I’m aware of in your area.

Phoenix