Third latex mattress seems to be okay

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
14

Phoenix, that is an interesting concept. For us the problems only occur as the foam softens. At first all three mattresses were nice, especially the second one. You are correct that I have become sensitive as I age and my back and hips get thrown out more easily. I backpacked through my 30’s and managed to sleep on uneven surfaces all that time, with just a little pressure relief from a foam pad.

The two issues I run into now are lack of lumbar support as the mattress softens, and a twist in my hips if I don’t keep my butt right in the softened area when sleeping on my back. It is easy to move out of it a bit, with one side of my butt higher than the other. By morning my hips/lower back are stuck in that position, which is mighty painful. I don’t see that the flow beds design would help that.

Anyway, we will see how things go with the boards under the softened foam. So far my wife and I are both doing much better.

Thanks for the feedback. Lew

15

Hi Lew,

This is what I noticed in your experiences (that the issues develop after a few months or during the “break in” period of the mattress) which was the reason for my comments. Foams will generally go through three stages of softening and breakdown. First is the initial softening which is the break in period. Next is the more gradual softening over a much longer period of time. Finally there is the last stage where the material itself breaks down and loses height. To some degree the last two stages overlap.

When there is a pattern of experience that seems to conflict with “normal” experience and someone’s experiences on several mattresses where this “shouldn’t” be happening is different from the norm … then it’s usually a good idea to look at other more “uncommon” solutions other than the normal response or softening of the material itself.

Sometimes this may have less to do with the mattress and be more about changes in the body or lifestyle changes (or the accumulated effect of both over time) as we inevitably “age” and our bodies lose flexibility or the ability to “adapt” to smaller changes as easily. Post #1 here has some good information about this.

It’s also very difficult to accurately identify the underlying cause behind certain symptoms because bodies can be so complex and a cause in one area of the body can led to symptoms in another (especially with backs).

To the degree though that any of your “symptoms” are caused by alignment issues (either vertical or rotational alignment) … then there are three main areas of the body that are part of good alignment. These are the pelvis, the recessed part of the lumbar, and the shoulders. The head and neck are also important and can have an effect on other parts of the spine but this is more about the pillow.

Pelvic tilt is the single biggest factor in controlling the alignment of the lumbar spine and if the pelvis sinks down too far or not enough then the pelvis will tilt and cause alignment issues and lower back pain or discomfort. In general the area under the pelvis needs to be firmer than the area under the shoulders so that you sink into a mattress in good alignment without tilting the pelvis. The second area that contributes to lower back alignment is the firmness of the materials under the recessed part of the lumbar and for more difficult body types such as those you are less evenly proportioned, carry more weight around the middle, or have a more curvy or athletic body type (wider shoulders or wider hips with a narrower waist or bigger lumbar curve) then there is usually a benefit with having materials under this area of the body that are firmer than the pelvic zone. This can help prevent the lumbar from sagging. One of the difficulties when talking about “lumbar support” is knowing whether it’s the lower lumbar where it connects to the pelvis or the upper lumbar where it curves inwards. Both can have separate issues even though they are interconnected. The “ideal” alignment is a lumbar curve that is close to when we are standing up with good posture but slightly less curved because when we are lying down the spine is under less vertical stress and is slightly less curved.

If a zoning system doesn’t “match” your specific body type and weight distribution it can either help less or it can sometimes be detrimental. The benefit of custom zoning systems is that they can be customized to the specific needs of each person although this can take some trial and error to get right.

This is a very unusual “symptom” and could be connected to the normal break in period of a foam where the parts you don’t sleep on are firmer than the parts you sleep in more often but it would take a very sensitive person to notice this type of side to side alignment issue if you are flat on your back to the degree that half of their body is higher than the other and this is causing an issue. It would also be less with latex than with other foams. If it’s from foam softening it would be self correcting when all the parts of your mattress have gone through their initial break in period and are more even in terms of softness.

If this is a long term issue that continues after the initial break in period then I would also look for alternative causes that may be more connected to something else including issues that have more to do with your physiology or a lack of flexibility on one side of your body where your muscles or joints are somehow contributing to the side to side or rotational alignment issues. It could also be connected to the relative range of motion on each side of your body (you can twist more easily in one direction than another) so that once you sink in past a certain point one side will continue to sink in more than the other because of muscle or joint tension on one side of your body (such as the hip flexors). It could also be connected to some muscle weakness in the abdominals or other core body muscles that hold your body in good rotational alignment. You’re right that the flobeds design in only zoned from top to bottom and not from side to side so it wouldn’t be a solution for this.

It would be interesting to know the exact positioning of the boards and whether they are placed specifically to only affect one side of your body or whether the positioning affects both sides of the body (which could be a “pointer” to what is happening). I’ve talked with two people I know who are more more technically oriented or “geeky” about mattresses, physiology, and ergonomics and biomechanics and I’ll have one more conversation tomorrow to see if any of them have any insights but so far they agree that the odds are higher that side to side rotational issues of this type when you are flat on your back are more likely to be connected to physiology or musculature or joint issues than to the mattress itself.

Phoenix

16

Phoenix, I didn’t expect you to do any work on this, I was just giving an update. I will add a few things. The problems for both my wife and me start when the sleeping areas develop what is effectively a body impression due to softness and we start sinking into the mattress instead of being on the mattress. The boards are placed, and in my case layered, to counteract this. The first two mattresses were wonderful until these virtual impressions developed. BTW, when I referred to my pelvis tilting, I might sideways.

I don’t see how the rest of the mattress could break in to this level of softness, as we don’t sleep much on the other parts. If the mattress were broken in evenly by a mechanical device, yes, but not by sleeping on it. Does that make sense? Thanks for all your efforts and I will let you know how it goes. I will also re-read your last post looking for clues. I certainly may have mis-diagnosed some of the problem. Lew

17

Hi Lew,

I realize this but part of my nature is being curious about unusual or rare “issues” and seeing if I can help identify a cause … even if the problem is uncommon. It’s all part of the learning curve and besides I enjoy it and your experience is very uncommon :slight_smile:

I had a very interesting conversation yesterday about your situation (the person I hadn’t talked with yet in my last reply) and thought I’d post a further update about some “possibilities”.

Everyone I’ve talked with agrees that side to side alignment issues on your back with a latex mattress are very uncommon but the conversation yesterday brought up some interesting possibilities.

To narrow it down to two “black and white” possibilities … the problem is either in you or in the mattress and part of the process of identifying it is a process of elimination. Since similar issues have happened with several mattresses I’m discounting the possibility that this is connected to latex that is somehow defective and is softening more rapidly or to a greater degree than normal.

If I understand you correctly … when you sleep on your side in the area that you normally sleep in (the middle of your side) then everything is fine but when you roll over to your back and one of your bum cheeks is more in the center section of the mattress then that side of your pelvis is elevated.

The first possibility of course is one that I’ve already mentioned and is that the middle of the mattress hasn’t broken in yet and the problem will be self correcting when it does. The initial softening of the cover or the latex is more than the much slower steady softening that continues over a period of years and once the middle has broken in to the same degree as each side the problem may be solved.

Another possible cause of this could be a split king foundation where the two sides of the foundation meet in the middle and the outer frames could be firmer than the slats on each side. If you could have someone look underneath when you lie on the mattress they could check for any slight flexing in the foundation or you could walk on the foundation itself to see if each side flexes more than the center of the foundation.

Another test to eliminate possibilities would be to rotate the mattress 180 degrees to see if the issue is the same on both sides of the mattress either initially or soon after. It may also be worthwhile to sleep on the other side of the mattress to see if the same issue happens with the other bum cheek (the issue switches sides).

Another possibility has to do with a “theory” that is based on experience but I haven’t had the chance to confirm or discuss with latex manufacturers (and neither has he). This is that humidity can have a temporary effect on the softness of latex … especially Dunlop. If you imagine a rubber sponge that is dry and then one that is wet then the wet sponge would feel softer than the dry one. This could affect either the height of the latex (it would recover more slowly) or the softness (which would also take longer to recover). This could be a particular issue with heavier people who tend to sleep hotter and perspire more.

When you lie on your side it could add moisture to your side of the mattress under your body where it is in contact with the mattress and when you roll over to your side then the middle section could be drier. This would be aggravated with either a waterproof mattress protector which can keep moisture inside the mattress or with an en suite bathroom that is connected to the bedroom which can raise humidity levels in the room. He has seen a connection with both (protectors and bathrooms) with similar issues because they can both raise the humidity levels in the latex. If this is the issue then it’s a matter of allowing the latex to ventilate and dry more rapidly and the softening is not permanent and will recover. A symptom of this would be if you rotate the mattress and it’s fine for a few days and then the symptoms come back.

One other “clue” could be if you cross one leg over the other when you sleep on your back either to “give in” to the misalignment or to “offset” the misalignment. Crossing your legs will raise one side of the pelvis and could also be the cause of a side to side alignment issue in the pelvis (and back pain).

Other than this … the only thing I (and they) can think of would be physiological and be a result of sinking in past a certain point after which one side of the body may somehow be more flexible and can sink down more easily than the other and twist the lower back.

Phoenix

18

Hi Phoenix, Here are some responses to your questions.

“f I understand you correctly … when you sleep on your side in the area that you normally sleep in (the middle of your side) then everything is fine but when you roll over to your back and one of your bum cheeks is more in the center section of the mattress then that side of your pelvis is elevated.”

Correct, though I don’t spend much time on my side these days, and do spend some on my stomach. I am not sure that he mattress is causing the hip problem. I am sure it is causing the lower back aches, for both me and my wife.

“might be the foundation.” I made the bed into a recessed platform. Two by fours on edge with particle board on top. No problem there.

Moisture. That could be a possibility, though I live near Denver so the climate is dry. Also, I feel the lack of support no matter what the time of year.

Rotating the mattress: we have done this twice, and it helps for a short while. The problem occurs on both sides: I check my wife’s side by lying on it, and she also gets the backaches as the mattress softens. I am reluctant to keep rotating the mattress because of it’s weight and flexibility and our age. :frowning:

Crossing my legs when I sleep. Nope.

As for build type, i am 6’1" 178, my wife is 5’9" and about 165. Neither of us has a round muscular butt, so sinking in may have more effect on the lumbar area. My pants size: 33/33. Shoulders broad but not thick. My wife has a pear shaped build.

I am attaching photos, if Mozilla will allow. ( I forgot to use IE to post this). The 3/4 inch boards on my wife’s side are about 20"X20". My side is more complex in build, topping out at over an inch. At the moment it is working quite well, as I can move side to side without feeling the support become uneven. We will see how long that lasts.

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Thanks again for all your effort. Lew

19

Hi Lew,

If a mattress is soft enough for side sleeping then there is always a good possibility that the mattress could be too soft for stomach sleeping (which needs a firmer thinner comfort layer). Of course you have compensated for this with your zoning approach.

I would also consider that particle board is more subject to bending and sag than either plywood or other types of wood but this would also depend on the thickness and the span distance. Either way … it could make a difference for someone that was more sensitive.

A solid surface under your mattress would also increase the likelihood of moisture retention in the mattress (see post #10 here) and if you are also using a waterproof mattress protector this could lead to the retention of moisture in the mattress. One of the “symptoms” that also points to this as a possibility is that when you rotate the mattress it’s OK for a few days before the issue re-appears.

Of course all of this speculation may lead past a point of diminishing returns and it seems you have mostly solved the issue with your zoning system anyway but it may be interesting to check a little further on a possible humidity connection by leaving the mattress unmade and uncovered during the day for a while to let any moisture trapped inside (by either the platform or the mattress protector) evaporate more easily to see if this makes any noticeable difference.

Phoenix

20

Phoenix, I don’t have a mattress protector on it. Just the nice cover that came with it. I am thinking of getting the St. Dormeir after reading reviews here. I gather it doesn’t add much padding.

I walked on the foundation when I was taking pics and screwing down my supports. It does not give at all, and if it did it would give at the center, which is where the mattress is most supportive due to not having been slept on.

I will let you know how it holds up with my mods. Lew

21

Amazing narrative guys! Thanks for sharing with all of us. I had a Healthy Back Elegance (Pure Bliss re-name, super soft) and it too developed “virtual impressions”. I only had it a month or so though before it went back. I could push on the area I slept and the area next to it and easily tell a difference in the softness. I’m about to give Sleep EZ a try I think. I like the idea of being able to swap around layers. Maybe we’ll find a combo that works for us. Good luck getting that bed just perfect Lew! Sounds like you have about licked it!

22

Recently heard in a standup routine: “You know you are getting old when you injure yourself sleeping.”

It sounds like you are having the same problems I am. Is your mattress on a solid platform, or one that breathes? That is the only thing that has come up that might be a clue. I might try putting ventilation holes and slots in the particle board, though in our dry climate in Colorado it seems a dubious that moisture is the cause. Keep us updated on your new mattress. Lew

23

Lew, I wish I’d seen this when you posted it! Thinking back…the Healthy Back Elegance was on the foundation they sell with it, supposedly breathable but who knows. After that one we tried one of their house-brand memory foam mattresses (we loved our 14 YO Tempur-Pedic). The HB memory foam was on a new Tempur-Pedic brand foundation we bought at the same time. We just didn’t like that bed. It also started to get noticeably softer quickly and we ended up returning it. We kept that TP foundation. I filled out the RMA paperwork for it tonight. It has about a .75" sag in the band below our hips.

Anyway, we did buy the Sleep EZ 10000 about 18 months ago. Oh how we wanted to love that bed. And it was “ok” for a while. We got the fully split queen in soft->medium->firm. We changed up the layers every way possible and could never get rid of the back pain. In addition, the layers kept coming apart in the center line between us and we would fall into the noticeable gap. Because of this, after a year Sleep EZ sent us a solid “soft” top to replace the spilt pieces. Customer service there has been top notch. Our main problem is that now the latec foam is sagging in the same areas as the foundation, under our hips, and is noticeably softer. Even on the replacement soft layer. We aren’t huge people (5’7"/160lbs, 5’4"/135lbs) but we do tend to sleep “together” like one 300lb person. We are side sleepers. I tried some quick zoning with cardboard between various layers but it really didn’t help much.

We are very near to pulling the trigger on the Novosbed Aria or Harmony. I sleep very hot, so the Harmony is appealing, but given our problems in recent years I like the idea of the probably higher durability of the denser Aria. My old TP slept very hot, and I tolerated that. We used it for about 12 years before we realized it was no longer supporting us. My daughter however loves it and isn’t thrilled that we took it back last night and gave her the SleepEZ latex bed.

I’m sure I’ll post somewhere else on here for some advice on Aria versus harmony. Phoenix and this site (as always) are fantastic, but I appreciate your posts as well Lew. I referred back to them a few times looking at zoning and never scrolled down enough to even remember that I had posted in this thread!

24

Hi BigWind,

I replied to your other post here with some comments about your sagging foundation which could certainly have some effect on your mattress and on how you sleep on it as well.

I hope that your next choice works out better for you!

Phoenix

25

I just wanted to chime in and say I have experienced a very similar sensation as Lew. My latex mattress is definitely firmer on the outer edges, and it causes me to “fall” into my normal sleeping spot. I would note that half of my core is dunlop and the other half is talalay and the dunlop does not does this - only the talalay (the dunlop is also one 6 inch piece - talalay is 2 3 inch pieces).

It is possible it is softening with wear - but I would also note that all of the latex pieces I have gotten from Latex International are softer down the middle and softest in the center. For instance, my 24 ILD blended piece is actually 25 ILD in the corners/sides and 22 ILD down the middle. (ditto for my 36 ILD piece). When you compound this 3 ILD difference down throughout the pieces - it is significant. I would note that adding memory foam helps because the point elasticity of memory foam and the softness mean you will sink in wherever you go - and the pushing effect is mitigated by the memory foam sink.

26

Hi djgoldb,

Splitting your core between Dunlop and Talalay and any difference in firmness between them along with the difference in the response curve between Talalay and Dunlop and how they respond to pressure would likely be at least one of the reasons for your experience. Most manufacturers would suggest avoiding this type of split layering where each half of the mattress is a different type of latex.

Phoenix

27

Well - the bed is a king with two completely different sides (his and hers) - split twin layers all the way through - so basically two totally separate twin beds. On the side with a talalay base, I feel like i sink into the middle of my half (so, the middle of one of the twins) - not the middle of the entire mattress.

28

Hi djgoldb,

This could be related to the relative firmness of each side of the mattress (Dunlop is denser and has a higher compression modulus so it gets firmer more quickly than Talalay as you sink into it more deeply) or it’s also possible it could also be connected to the foundation underneath it. The edges of a foundation or the middle where two twin XL foundations come together can sometimes be firmer than the middle on each side of the mattress.

Phoenix

29

We recently bought a Wazee and are having similar issues with sagging and body impressions. What bothers me more than anything is that we were told that this was their best seller, one had never been returned. Your story makes me think otherwise.

30

Hi AmyPink,

It would be very unusual for any high quality mattress (latex or otherwise) to be sagging after such a short time unless it is one of the very small percentage of cases where there is some kind of defect in the materials. How deep are the impressions in your mattress? Have you measured them?

It’s also possible that the impressions you are referring to could be coming from your wool topper which would be normal when you first sleep on a wool topper (see post #3 here).

If your mattress has developed visible impressions after this short a period of time then I would definitely talk with Sleep Nation about whether it may be defective.

Phoenix

31

Phoenix,

I think the issue may be with the foundation that came with the bed. It feels like it’s composed with thin wire and “large” spaces in between. I’ve got to catch a nap before work but my husband will get a better look this evening. I quickly ran my hands underneath the mattress without getting a thorough look or feel. The mattress feels the best in the middle, where the box springs meet and I’m thinking provide more support.

Thank you!

32

Hi AmyPink,

If you have a “wire grid” foundation under an all latex mattress then depending to some degree on the size of the gaps in the wire grid it could certainly be a cause for any sagging issues as the latex could be sinking into the gaps in the wire grid (see post #10 here).

I have a friend who is a manufacturer who calls the wire grid types of foundations “cheese shredders” :slight_smile:

Phoenix

33

The wire grid networks are not something I recommend for a latex mattress. While they’re often referred to as semi-flex or min-flex, most are made to be a solid grid network on top. They’re usually covered with some sort of felt/pre-compressed material that will eventually sink in between the top grid wires. These wires will eventually take a set and sag a bit in the areas with the most use, especially figuring in the weight of a latex mattress and humans to boot. And as Phoenix mentioned, over time you can actually see how they can cause some stressing/tearing in the bottom of the latex mattress.