I’ll try to make this long story short, here goes…
About 8 years ago, we bought a mattress from metromattress in the Syracuse area, a kingcoil “night rain” IIRC. Inside of about 3 years, it had body impressions exceeding two inches. To metro’s credit, they came out and looked at it, and replaced it with something called a “Laura Ashley White Diamonds”. It was somewhere north of 2 grand. After 5 years, it too had some serious impressions, enough to make it uncomfortable sleeping “in the pits”. I thought I would send an email with pictures, to metro, and got back shortly an email from the Pennsylvania Bedding Company, saying they would be glad to help, just let us know when the mattress was returned to the factory for a refurb. (A king size mind you). In not so many words, telling us to bugger off. Oh well. Almost 9 years altogether for that investment, I have done worse.
Went to look at the organics at sleepmaster, made locally. Bought the Archetype, thinking the firmness would be a good thing. It was not. Both my wife and I did not get any sleep that night. The Archetype is a conventional, but very firm, coil spring mattress, with a separate dunlop latex 3" topper. I went down to the store on Erie Blvd, and they bent ovr backwards to make sure we would be happy, and replaced it a week later with the “Cazenovian”, a 6" latex mattress with a 3 inch topper.
Still too firm! Luckily, I was into this site, and became a mattress nerd, and before the delivery of the first one, I cut open the metromattress (kingcoil) to see if there were any layers of latex in there “just in case”. For a mattress that has a law tag stating something like 22% latex (it must be by mass?), there was one layer, that was convoluted. It must have been about 2" to begin with, but they cut it with a wave cut to get two out of the same piece. Regardless, it is now on top of the new latex mattress making it much better. I would actually feel embarrassed to go back to the store, I can not really expect them to do any more by us, and I can and will recommend them to anyone in the market. We may just be tough nuts to get comfortable. I go about 260 and my wife maybe 160, both side sleepers.
So now we are looking at getting a topper for the topper. I’m thinking a Talalay 2" or 3", preferably in a cover similar to the mattress we own, and it has to be a low IPD! Natural Latex Mattress with Pillowtop | Cazenovian by WJ Southard Just not sure where to source the topper topper.
The strange part for us is that both mattress felt awesome in the store, yet tough to sleep on. The second one at least we could sleep on as is, the first, not a chance. It is just that even the all latex is just a little firmer than we would like. A topper to the topper will bring it up to darn near a foot of latex.
Just surprised the journey has been this difficult…
Welcome to the Mattress Forum! … and I’m glad you took the time to register and share your experiences.
You certainly made a high quality mattress choice but of course no matter what the quality of a mattress the most important part of a purchase is that it’s a good match for you in terms of PPP and that you sleep well on it.
I’m not sure how long you’ve been sleeping on your mattress but if it’s still very new then your mattress may need to break in to some degree and you will also go through an adjustment period with any new sleeping surface that is different from what you were used to sleeping on. There is more about the break in and adjustment period and some other suggestions that may be helpful in post #2 here. I would also talk with Sleepmasters because they will likely have some suggestions and may have some options available that will be helpful as well. I would also wait for a few weeks (if possible) before making any changes to your mattress.
While this is now “history” since you have cut open your mattress … I’m surprised that Metro Mattress didn’t look after the warranty issue for you since the retailer normally be your contact point for a warranty claim. At least you had 9 years with your mattress(es) which is longer than a mattress purchase ends up lasting for most people that buy a mainstream mattress.
[quote]Went to look at the organics at sleepmaster, made locally. Bought the Archetype, thinking the firmness would be a good thing. It was not. Both my wife and I did not get any sleep that night. The Archetype is a conventional, but very firm, coil spring mattress, with a separate dunlop latex 3" topper. I went down to the store on Erie Blvd, and they bent ovr backwards to make sure we would be happy, and replaced it a week later with the “Cazenovian”, a 6" latex mattress with a 3 inch topper.
Still too firm! Luckily, I was into this site, and became a mattress nerd, and before the delivery of the first one, I cut open the metromattress (kingcoil) to see if there were any layers of latex in there “just in case”. For a mattress that has a law tag stating something like 22% latex (it must be by mass?), there was one layer, that was convoluted. It must have been about 2" to begin with, but they cut it with a wave cut to get two out of the same piece. Regardless, it is now on top of the new latex mattress making it much better. I would actually feel embarrassed to go back to the store, I can not really expect them to do any more by us, and I can and will recommend them to anyone in the market. We may just be tough nuts to get comfortable. I go about 260 and my wife maybe 160, both side sleepers.[/quote]
As you discovered … too firm is certainly not better and can lead to comfort and alignment issues just as much as a mattress that is too soft which can have it’s own set of issues that come from sleeping on it. The ideal is to always choose a mattress that is a good match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences).
The law tag lists the percentage of the materials by weight and since latex is heavier than most other materials it will generally have a higher percentage than it would be if it was based on the thickness of the layers. There is also more about convoluted layers in post #2 here.
You also have a fairly large weight differential so that can make a mattress choice that “fits” both of you more challenging as well (see the first part of post #2 here) because higher body weights tend to do better with firmer materials in both the comfort and support layers than lower body weights although of course each person may be different from what works “on average” for others that have a similar body type and sleeping style.
Post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to has more information that can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the thickness and firmness of a topper that would have the best chance of success and also links to a list of some of the better sources for toppers that I’m aware of as well.
It can take some careful and objective testing in a store to be able to closely approximate and come close to predicting your actual sleeping experience (I generally suggest the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) and it’s not uncommon for many people to find that testing in a store can be different from your experience when you sleep on it at home.
I hope you have the chance to share your feedback about the results of any fine tuning or toppers that you decide to try and hopefully you will find a combination that is a “perfect” match for both of you.
Well, two more nights, and not much change. Being a side sleeper, there is a lot of pressure on my shoulder. My wife feels this 6" core w/ 3 inch dunlop topper is actually stiffer than the last (the Archetype) setup.
I am going to call the factory tomorrow to see if there is any way to swap out the topper (3" dunlop) for one with a lower IPD.
If I can’t get any love there, (And they have already swapped out the entire bed!) I am considering this: http://www.brooklynbedding.com/mattress-toppers/3-inch-talalay-latex-topper.html
in a soft (18 IPD) talalay.
My wife is a bit incredulous that we have to spend more, but it is what it is. This will add up to 12" of latex altogether! It’s curious, sitting on the edge of the bed, you get the impression that it is indeed a softy, but spread out, it firms up.
Just concerned that soft, in addition to being 3 more inches of latex will wind up being too soft. No one local sells just toppers made out of talalay latex.
This is a very common comment with latex because it’s very “point elastic” (meaning it can contour and compress in a specific area with less affect on the surrounding area) so you can sink in more deeply with the more concentrated weight of sitting vs the more evenly distributed weight of lying down. You are also in a weight range where you may benefit from 12" of latex (see post #14 here). This is also why it’s so important to test mattresses with both of you on the mattress in all your sleeping positions and for long enough for your muscles to fully relax so your testing can do a better job of predicting your real life sleeping experience.
While I don’t know the firmness of the Cazenovian topper … I would be cautious as well adding 3" of 19 ILD Talalay because you could be “overcompensating” by adding too much additional thickness in an ILD that low which could be risky in terms of alignment (more for you than for your wife).
Well, I just got back from a trip to walmart. Just out of curiosity, I wandered into the bedding dept.
With their great return policy (what would they do with that if I returned it??) I saw a 3" memory foam topper. Hmmmmm says I. What the heck, bought it. It was only 150 bucks.
The great experiment continues…
I am not a great fan of memory foam feel, but my shoulder hurts… :ohmy:
List of ingredients that we have to work with:
$3000 organic latex bed.
Left over convoluted 2" layer of what I believe to be talalay foam from the old mattress.
3" memory foam from walmart.
If you asked me a month ago about all this stuff I would have given you a hairy eyeball.
Thanks so much for the great website, and more importantly, your input Phoenix. I will keep a close eye on alignment. If the memory foam gives out early, or the feel is not right, I am going to continue with the Brooklyn latex, with IPD hopefully more dialed in.
The 3" walmart memory foam is not very specific in any description. Any idea what density or IPD it may have?
I don’t know which of their toppers you purchased but if it’s one of the Zinus toppers (which has “green tea”) then it would most likely be around the 3 lb density range.
I’m looking forward to your feedback after you’ve had the chance to sleep on it for a few days.
Phoenix
PS: just for the sake of clarity … the term for the softness of latex is ILD (not IPD) which stands for “indentation load deflection” and for polyfoam would be either ILD or IFD (indentation force deflection) which are very similar and often used interchangeably (although IFD is more correct for polyfoam).
it is irritatingly too small in both directions, by 2 inches. It is cut to 78 X74". Is this a standard practice in the topper world?
With the third layer of latex from the old mattress, way too soft. With just the topper on top of the dunlop topper that comes with the new bed, not too bad in the first impression. About right, but a night or two of sleep will be a better indicator. Like I stated earlier, not a big fan of memory foam feel. But It seems better on the pressure points.
You can read a little more about Sinomax in post #4 here and while Chinese memory foams can be a little bit more uncertain (see post #6 here) … Sinomax is at least one of the “better” Chinese memory foam manufacturers although the density is always the most important factor in the durability of polyfoam or memory foam and all manufacturers make lower and higher quality foams.
This is not unusual at all with memory foam but at least if it’s made by Sinomax you know that it has been CertiPUR certified.
It varies from manufacturer to manufacturer but it’s fairly common with toppers yes. The “theory” is that having a topper that is an inch less on all 4 sides can help your sheets fit better. The foam layers in a mattress are often smaller than the standard size for a mattress as well because the thicker cover and fire barrier that are around the foam layers of a mattress are part of its final dimensions and these would either be missing or thinner with a topper.
That’s not surprising because you would have an additional 4 1/2" or so of softer materials on top of your mattress which for most people would be more than their ideal and would be quite risky in terms of alignment. The 3" topper by itself on top of your Dunlop topper (which is probably in a medium range) would be a better “match” for most people and would be less risky.
I hope that the topper works out well for you and if it does and you aren’t a fan of memory foam and prefer a more resilient material then it may also be worth considering a softer latex topper as well.
Well, the memory topper from Wal*Mart went back. I can only wonder where it ultimately ends up.
I certainly don’t understand why anyone likes memory foam, but I know everyone has a different way of flipping their flopper.
Still may have to ultimately go with a 2" soft latex from Brooklyn or whatever.
We have the convoluted latex (1.5"?) from our old mattress between the latex base and latex topper, and the fiberbed on top.Once again, weird that at this price level we are doing this much finagling, but we are comfortable.
As you know the price of mattress or the cost or quality of the materials inside it have very little to do with whether a mattress will be a suitable match in terms of PPP so it’s good to see that you found a combination that it working out well for you.
While the fiberbed may not be the most durable material … it should last you for a reasonable amount of time and since the other layers in your sleeping system are durable materials the worst case would likely be that you replace the fiberbed with something very similar whenever that becomes necessary.
Memory foam tends to be a “love it or hate it” type of material and there are many people who don’t understand why anyone would like sleeping on it just like there are many others who don’t understand why anyone would choose to sleep on anything else. The range of preferences that different people have is always amazing to me as well.
