Toronto: Foam (probably latex?) - short list

Hi - I’ve tried to learn as much as a I could from this site, but it’s an information firehose. At this point, I’m just about ready to shoot myself in the head, I think.

So I need a new Queen mattress for my wife and I. We don’t consider ourselves picky, but we want a good mattress. I’d be happy at $2k or less. Less is better, but I don’t mind paying more for value/longevity - I just don’t want to overpay for nothing.

We think we slept on a latex mattress (it was foam for sure) at a hotel for a few nights and were amazed at how comfortable it was. So we’re thinking latex - but we don’t know for sure we like latex. Also, it should be noted, my wife does have a mild latex allergy which I’ve assumed won’t be a problem (am I wrong?!).

From this site I am operating under the following beliefs:

  • All latex foam is good quality
  • The top 5-6 inches are what matter in terms of comfort and durability
  • Latex itself is one of the most durable materials
  • Flippable mattresses are better than not flippable, all things considered and assuming I bother to actually flip the thing.

So this brings me to my short list:

  • Ikea Morgongava: Approx 7" of all latex in several layers, plus some cotton etc… to reach almost 8". Flippable. Approx $1k. 45 day returns, 90 day exchange. Consumer Reports recommends it, and it passed their 8-year-simulated-wear test showing "minor changes in performance’ - I have a hard time seeing why this isn’t a good deal on a technical level at least, no idea if it’s comfortable for me personally (that’s the next test I guess).
  • Dormio: Their closest approximation to the Morgongava is the Classic Organic, top to bottom is 2" medium “organic” latex then 6" medium or firm “organic” latex all wrapped in cotton: $1500. I’d probably get talked up to the Euro Organic, which seems to just add a 1" wool wrapper but brings the price up to $1998. Ouch.
  • Dormio: Dormio again - minus the bells and whistles: Their “Hospitality” line 8" which (top to bottom) is 2" soft + 1" soft + 2" med + 1+ soft - 8" total, flippable, cotton wrap, $1550.
  • Dreamstar via Tonfurniture (probably): The “Natural Escape” which is 4" talalay “natural” latex then 6" poly (which elsewhere in this forum was stated as 1.9lb or greater - I’d confirm before I bought) for $1150. 12" total, so 2 inches unspecified. Ton Furniture says it uses wool-quilted-polyfoam with bamboo fabric - so that probably takes up the last 2"

A major difference between Dormio and Ikea seems to be thickness. So how thick do I need a 100% latex bed to be?

I realize Ikea uses a synthetic latex blend, and Dormio doesn’t - but I’m under the impression that will change the feel of the mattress, but likely makes the Ikea one more durable?

Nobody is talking about the edging and side support. Should I care?

The argument for Dreamstar and Tonfurniture is obviously price. The negative is that I don’t think there is anything I can do if I don’t like the mattress.

The argument for Ikea is: Known brand (FWIW), technical specs seem fine, and I can return it if I’m not happy. However, I don’t want to have to exchange it since I doubt I’d like any of the other Ikea mattresses - that gives me exactly 45 days decide. Note also that at the Ikea price, I can buy 1.5 Dormio mattresses, and Ikea is around the corner from me so it’s no big deal buying one and taking it home myself.

The argument for Dormio is: Technical details and perceived quality. I won’t be able to return the mattress, but I would assume they would find some way to tweak it if I’m unhappy about firmness.

Distant third and forth options right now are Casper ($1050 in Canada, also Consumer Reports recommended) and BedInABox (very distant, since once it gets to my house it’s only about $200 cheaper than the Dormio full latex options).

Help?

Hi Andy98,

If you aren’t sure if you slept on latex in the hotel then it would probably be a good idea to test some latex mattresses in the store just to make sure you really do like the way latex feels and performs.

If your wife’s allergy or sensitivity is triggered by contact (which is almost always the case) then it shouldn’t be an issue. There is more about latex allergies in post #2 here.

If you define quality as durability relative to other types of foam materials then I would agree with this.

While all the layers and components of a mattress will have some effect on all the other layers and components in the mattress both above and below them … I would agree that in most cases the upper layers will have the most noticeable effect.

I would agree with this.

I’m not so sure I would agree with this and it would depend on how you defined better. While a two sided mattress that can be flipped will generally last longer than an equivalent one sided mattress that uses the same materials and components … there are also design limitations with two sided mattresses that don’t effect one sided mattresses. There is more about the pros and cons of two sided “flippable” mattresses in post #3 here and the posts it links to.

If two different mattresses are both likely to last for 10 years or more then durability may be a moot point anyway because after 10 years the biggest reason for replacing a mattress may be the changing needs and preferences of the person themselves and not the mattress (see the end of post #4 here).

[quote]So this brings me to my short list:

Ikea Morgongava: Approx 7" of all latex in several layers, plus some cotton etc.. to reach almost 8". Flippable. Approx $1k. 45 day returns, 90 day exchange. Consumer Reports recommends it, and it passed their 8-year-simulated-wear test showing "minor changes in performance' - I have a hard time seeing why this isn't a good deal on a technical level at least, no idea if it's comfortable for me personally (that's the next test I guess).
Dormio: Their closest approximation to the Morgongava is the Classic Organic, top to bottom is 2" medium "organic" latex then 6" medium or firm "organic" latex all wrapped in cotton: $1500. I'd probably get talked up to the Euro Organic, which seems to just add a 1" wool wrapper but brings the price up to $1998. Ouch.
Dormio: Dormio again - minus the bells and whistles: Their "Hospitality" line 8" which (top to bottom) is 2" soft + 1" soft + 2" med + 1+ soft - 8" total, flippable, cotton wrap, $1550.
Dreamstar via Tonfurniture (probably): The "Natural Escape" which is 4" talalay "natural" latex then 6" poly (which elsewhere in this forum was stated as 1.9lb or greater - I'd confirm before I bought) for $1150. 12" total, so 2 inches unspecified. Ton Furniture says it uses wool-quilted-polyfoam with bamboo fabric - so that probably takes up the last 2"[/quote]

Assuming that all the specs are correct (and the Natural Escape is the only one that appears to be uncertain) then there would be no lower quality materials or weak links in any of them.

There is more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here but the most important factor is always PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and how well you will sleep on a mattress because without this durability, price, or any of the other parts of value would be mostly meaningless.

Thickness by itself is just a side effect of the design and internal layering of a mattress and is only one of many factors and specs that will affect how a mattress feels and performs so using thickness by itself as a guideline isn’t practical or meaningful (see post #2 here). If your testing or personal sleeping experience indicates that a mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP then it’s “thick enough”.

I doubt that it would make the Ikea latex more durable and it’s quite possible that it could be the other way around but in practical terms I would treat them as “close equivalents” because in practice when you are dealing with two different mattresses that use different types and blends of latex that have different designs and firmness levels then the other factors that can affect durability and the useful life of a mattress may become more important than the type and blend of latex.

For the most part … latex mattresses don’t have or need edge support if the mattress is a suitable firmness for the person although there may be a smaller minority of people that sleep with more of their weight concentrated on the very outside edge of a mattress or who sit on the very edge of the mattress (instead of sitting more towards the middle of the mattress) where it may be a more important preference (see post #3 here). Your testing will tell you more about this relative to any specific mattress along with all the other preferences that you can “feel”.

Price would certainly be part of the “argument” for either one but as you mentioned the ability to fine tune the support or pressure relief of a mattress by exchanging layers or some of the other parts of your personal value equation may also be important factors in the “value” of a mattress purchase.

I would never assume anything and I would always make sure that you know the options that would be available to you after a purchase with any mattress you are considering.

I would also keep in mind that you can always soften up a mattress that is too firm by adding a softer topper but that it’s much more difficult to firm up a mattress that is too soft without removing and replacing either the comfort layers that are too thick/soft or the support core that is too soft.

You can see my comments about the Consumer Reports mattress ratings and recommendations in post #2 here and in this topic. While they may be a good source of information about more “objective” purchases … as you can see I would consider them to be an unreliable source of information or guidance about purchasing a mattress. My thoughts are shared by most of the more knowledgeable people in the industry (see post #5 here for an example).

While the Casper mattress would be a reasonable choice compared to many mainstream mattresses … you can see my comments about Bedinabox in post #2 here. I would be very cautious with any mattress that uses 3 lb memory foam which is a lower quality and less durable material and I would consider this to be a weak link in their mattresses.

Phoenix

Hi - thanks for the reply! My wife’s allergy is contact based, so I think we’ll be fine.

Thanks for the extra links - and we are going to test out a latex bed for sure. That’s the next step, I guess.

Some specific follow-up:

[quote=“Phoenix” post=54146]If two different mattresses are both likely to last for 10 years or more then durability may be a moot point anyway because after 10 years the biggest reason for replacing a mattress may be the changing needs and preferences of the person themselves and not the mattress (see the end of post #4 here).
[/quote]
Really good point. This never occurred to me.

Ah - ok, so I’ve assumed that Tonfurniture couldn’t help me because they don’t make the mattress. But from one of your links I see that isn’t automatically true, and gives me something to talk with them about.

It’s exactly that kind of tweaking that I’m betting (but would confirm) that Dormio can help with should I need it. It sounds like I should err on the side of firm - are there any cautions you have with that approach?

Do you hear a lot about people who just don’t like latex mattresses? I don’t seem to be coming across that a lot. I see people who don’t like memory foam, and people who needed to tweak their latex mattress, but all in all I haven’t seen a lot of people say “I returned my latex mattress and bought coils” or even memory foam. Am I correct in this perception?

Two more questions:

  • [li]The Ikea Morgongava and the Casper are within $50 of each other. Do you consider these of equal technical quality? And, hypothetically, if you found them equally comfortable, what factors would drive your choice between them?
  • The Dormio Euro gives me 1" of wool casing. How useful is that? Note that I have had problems with moths in the past. Does this give me anything that I wouldn’t be able to achieve myself by throwing a wool mattress topper on top? (or heck, maybe even adding a wool blanket under the fitted sheet). It adds nearly $500 to the Dormio cost, and I feels a lot like I’m falling for marketing.

Hi Andy98,

I would choose a mattress as if you only had one chance to “get it right” and do some very careful testing but if you really can’t tell which mattress is the best match for you in terms of PPP or which one you would likely sleep best on and if you have limited options after a purchase in terms of fine tuning or exchanging the mattress then then I agree and the odds would suggest that it would be less risky to choose slightly firmer than slightly softer.

I don’t think that I would call it a lot but I have certainly seen “enough” feedback over the years to warrant caution and to make sure that your own experience indicates that you prefer latex over other materials and components because there are certainly many people where latex isn’t their favorite material or an all latex mattress isn’t their favorite mattress design even though it may be “OK” for them to sleep on.

I would also keep in mind that there are so many different versions of latex mattresses that use different types and blends of latex in different firmness levels, layer thicknesses, and with different designs that a specific latex mattress may be “perfect” for someone but another latex mattress may be completely unsuitable for the same person to sleep on. I would always suggest that you treat the choice of materials and the type of mattresses you are considering as a preference choice rather than a “better/worse” choice.

I can only speak to durability rather than “technical quality” (I don’t really know what that means) but the Morgongava is all latex (85% natural and 15% synthetic) while the Casper has only 1.5" of synthetic latex with 1.5" of 4 lb lb memory foam as a transition layer and then a 7" 1.8 lb polyfoam support core so I would consider the Morgongava to have the clear edge in terms of durability because latex would be more durable than the 4 lb memory foam and the 1.8 lb polyfoam that are underneath the latex in the Casper. Having said that … they will have a completely different “feel” and different firmnesses as well so one of them may be a much more suitable choice than the other in terms of PPP. Neither one of them have any obvious weak links in the design for most people although I would be cautious with the Casper if you are in a higher weight range (say more than the lower 200’s or so) because of the difference in the durability of the materials (higher weight ranges will generally need more durable and probably firmer materials than more “average” weight ranges.

You can read more about the pros and cons of a wool quilted cover in post #6 here. It would certainly have a positive effect on regulating temperature in both directions (more than just a thinner wool blanket which is a woven fabric rather than densified wool batting) and there are many people that strongly prefer the less resilient “feel” of sleeping on latex with a quilting material in the cover (or wool batting under the cover).

A wool quilted cover can also be used to pass the fire regulations without needing other types of fire barriers or fire retardant methods to pass the regulations.

A wool topper or mattress pad that has a similar amount of wool batting and had a similar cover would have a similar effect on temperature regulation but of course it would have a different “feel” than wool that was quilted in the cover and would affect the feel and performance of the mattress as well. You may like it more or less than the same mattress without the wool topper or mattress pad. If the latex layers in two mattresses you are comparing were also different in terms of the type or blend of latex or the firmness or thickness of the individual layers then a mattress with a wool topper would also be different in terms of PPP from a mattress with a different design that had a wool quilted cover that used a similar amount of wool as the mattress pad or topper. Every layer and component of a mattress will have some effect on the feel and performance of every other layer and component of a mattress both above and below it and the mattress “as a whole”.

There is also more about the many variables that can affect sleeping temperature relative to different people in post #2 here.

Phoenix

Ok - I spent about 30 minutes laying around on the Morgongava, and from a generalized feel (e.g., do I like latex) it felt fine. I thought it was a little too firm, which I think is a common complaint for them.

Next stop will be Dormio.

Hi Andy98,

At least you know that you like the general feel of Dunlop although as you mentioned the Morgongava would be a little firmer than many people would prefer partly because it’s relatively thin and partly because they use Mountaintop latex in a C3 firmness level which is in a medium firm range and don’t have a softer comfort layer which many people would prefer.

I’m looking forward to your feedback after your visit to Dormio.

Phoenix

Actually I’m adding another mattress to the list: The Novosbed.Aria in Queen at $1129 to my door.

I missed Novosbed when going through your Toronto/Canada list - I didn’t realize they had a 120 money-refunded trial period, so that puts them right into the pack. (pushing Casper off the list).

As an aside should any of the retailers come across this, for the ship-by-mail options, I’ve automatically ignored any mattress company that doesn’t offer me a comfort guarantee - there are a lot of companies in your list that I kinda wanted to do business with that didn’t make the cut as a result. I think their being unwilling to shoulder this risk is probably dissuading a lot of non-local people like me.

So in my new plan the next stop isn’t Dormio - its someplace where I can check out a Tempurpedic Cloud Supreme to see if it’s Memory foam or Latex I’d prefer.

Hi Andy98,

[quote]Actually I’m adding another mattress to the list: The Novosbed.Aria in Queen at $1129 to my door.

I missed Novosbed when going through your Toronto/Canada list - I didn’t realize they had a 120 money-refunded trial period, so that puts them right into the pack. (pushing Casper off the list).[/quote]

As you probably know latex and memory foam are very different from each other and feel and perform very differently. There is more about how they compare in post #2 here but the best way to know which type of materials or mattresses you tend to prefer (at least in more general terms because each category of mattresses has a very wide range of different “feels” and firmness levels) is based on your own personal testing and experience.

NOTE ADDED JAN, 2016: They have now introduced their new simplified choice mattress which has replaced their previous models and have also become a member of this site.

I can certainly understand your thoughts and for many people return/exchange policies are an important part of their personal value equation with an online purchase.

Just for clarification though … the companies aren’t the ones that are shouldering the risk because return and exchange policies are built into the cost of the mattress so the majority of people who don’t return or exchange a mattress are the ones that pay for the smaller minority of people who do. In other words there is always a tradeoff between risk and price.

Good luck in your ongoing research and I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding.

Phoenix

Ok - I visited Dormio. Interesting trip and nice place.

Turns out their website is out of date, so the products available are not exactly the same as what the website was telling me. Specifically the “Classic Organic” line is actually what used to be their “Hospitality” line, more or less.

The 8" was pretty good and I liked it a lot until I tried the 10". Which I liked more. It was interesting to feel the difference the extra depth made, and the deeper 10" mattress (plus an 11" mattress I tried) was best for me (but not best for my budget).

Dormio confirmed that they have something like a comfort guarantee: I wouldn’t be able to return the mattress, but they would be able to swap layers etc… to make me happy. They said that for the “Classic” line this might not be free if the swap requires something with a higher material cost but if there was a charge it would be small. In writing this it seems sketchy, but I got the sense that I wouldn’t be left in the lurch but I might be out of pocket an additional $30-$100 depending on the change.

I found that on all the mattresses, I could get comfortable lying on one side but not the other due to shoulder pain. The thicker the mattress, the less pain I had. I did not experience this pain as much on my current coil mattress, which surprises me. A thinner mattress (say 8") with softer top didn’t help - the depth is what helped.

So it looks like at Dormio I’d definitely end up in the $2000-$2600 range, which I don’t like. The question is whether the $1k memory foam Novosbed would be better, which means I will test drive a Tempur Cloud Supreme.

Hi Andy98,

It’s fairly common with local retailers and manufacturers that websites aren’t always up to date and don’t always show the current lineup that a retailer has on their floor which can change on a regular basis. Retailers that specialize in online sales will generally have more up to date websites since their customers can’t visit their showroom in person to see what they have available.

[quote]The 8" was pretty good and I liked it a lot until I tried the 10". Which I liked more. It was interesting to feel the difference the extra depth made, and the deeper 10" mattress (plus an 11" mattress I tried) was best for me (but not best for my budget).

Dormio confirmed that they have something like a comfort guarantee: I wouldn’t be able to return the mattress, but they would be able to swap layers etc… to make me happy. They said that for the “Classic” line this might not be free if the swap requires something with a higher material cost but if there was a charge it would be small. In writing this it seems sketchy, but I got the sense that I wouldn’t be left in the lurch but I might be out of pocket an additional $30-$100 depending on the change.[/quote]

There is more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of PPP in post #2 here that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for once you actually sleep on your mattress.

I would keep in mind that return and exchange policies are built into the cost of a mattress so that the majority of people who don’t return or exchange a mattress (or individual layers) are the ones who pay for the minority of people who do. Exchange policies that allow you to exchange a layer and have a minimal cost involved will usually add much less to the cost of a mattress than exchange or return policies that require returning the whole mattress so they are a good way to keep the cost of a mattress lower and still provide a way to make changes to a mattress after a purchase.

With careful testing (hopefully following the testing guidelines in the tutorial) a local purchase will usually be “close enough” in terms of PPP that only relatively small fine tuning changes will usually be necessary if any changes are necessary at all (see post #4 here). If you know that you prefer a latex mattress compared to other types of materials or mattresses then if you have done good testing on the mattress the odds are high that if a mattress isn’t quite “right” for you in terms of PPP that a layer exchange will be all you need.

While the specific design and layering of a mattress is more important than just thickness … thickness is also one of the specs that in combination with others can make a difference in how a mattress feels and performs and in cases where all the other layers are similar then thicker mattresses will “act” softer than thinner mattresses. There is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here.

Latex is a very different material than memory foam but the choice between them is really a preference choice and some people prefer the feel of latex over memory foam and some people’s preferences are the other way around. There is more about how they compare in post #2 here but the best way to know which type of material you tend to prefer sleeping on will be based on your own personal experience.

Thanks for the update on your search and I’m looking foward to finding out what you end up deciding.

Phoenix

The adventure continues.

I’m sure you’re familiar with the Brick - well, I went to visit specifically to try out the Tempur Cloud Supreme and Contour Elite, which Novosbed lists as it’s comparables. They didn’t have any.

Instead I tried the Tempur Flex Tahoe (“medium”) - $2300 incl foundation. We also tried the equivalent in medium-soft. We really liked the medium. I found it more comfortable for my shoulder, AND we found it transferred motion less than the latex bed, plus we had less of a “rolling into each other” effect.

We also tried an iComfort, since it was there - we didn’t like it quite as much all due to firmness - the medium was too soft, and the firm was too firm.

I’ve read what you have to say about the Tempur Flex and Sealy in general. Any thoughts on how the Tempur Flex would compare to the Novosbed and/or Tempur Cloud Supreme?

Hi Andy98,

There is more about the different ways that one mattress can “match” or “approximate” another one in post #9 here but the Tempur Flex mattresses are a completely different mattress design which uses an innerspring instead of polyfoam for the support core and also uses a combination of memory foam and polyfoam in the comfort layers instead of just memory foam so it really wouldn’t be an apples to apples comparison even if the firmness levels were similar. Different people can also have very different opinions about how two mattresses compare because different body types, sleeping styles, and preferences and sensitivities can have a significant effect on how a mattress feels for a particular person so the only way to really know how they would compare for you would be based on your own personal experience.

When you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked that they are familiar with, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences or even to other mattresses that they are familiar with than anyone else.

Phoenix

Ok ,so I chatted with Novosbed and they agreed that the Tempur Flex would feel different than their bed, so off I went to try it.

I tested out a Tempur Cloud Supreme, Cloud Supreme Breeze, Cloud Supreme Breeze Elite, and a Sealy Optimum Posturepedic Radiance Gold. The names make my head spin.

I also tried a Natura latex bed. It’s amazing how much I have now come to prefer the memory foam - the latex seems very “live” and I vastly prefer the deadness of the memory foam beds.

All in all, the Cloud Supreme and the Sealy were my most favourite of the lot above. I didn’t like the “breeze” layer. and the “Elite” was really not to my taste.

So at this point, I feel like I’m sold on the Novosbed. If they feel like the Cloud Supreme, are a good retailer, and well constructed then with the 120 day sleep guarantee I don’t see a better option.

Hi Andy98,

The Aria uses good quality/density foam materials and there are no weak links in the mattress in terms of durability and they also have a great return policy so if your testing indicates that the Cloud Supreme is a good match for you in terms of PPP and you prefer the feel of memory foam then it would certainly be well worth considering.

Phoenix

Hi,

So I’ve been sleeping on my Aria now for about 3 weeks and I’m pretty happy. My wife loves it, and I think that I definitely do not toss/turn as much as I did with my old mattress.

I find that the Aria is remarkably comfortable when lying down on my back (which is not my normal sleeping position).

I find that it is also comfortable when I sleep on my side, however I do need to switch sides throughout the night a bit - I suspect less than with my old mattress, but still I can’t stay on one side all night.

I had no issues with smell or off-gassing.
I have no issues with it sleeping hot (and it’s summer at the moment).

The motion isolation is really amazing.

So - so far, so good.

Hi andy98,

Thanks for letting us know what you ended up deciding and for taking the time to share your comments and feedback … and congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

It’s great to hear that your choice seems to be working out so well for you!

Phoenix

Hi, I’ve been meaning to come back and post for awhile - I recently passed the 120 day mark on my mattress, which means I’m locked in.

Still very happy. The mattress has turned me into a back sleeper, surprisingly. Totally happy.

Hi Andy98,

Thanks for the update.

It’s great to hear that your mattress turned out so well for you :slight_smile:

Phoenix