I’ve been reading/researching mattress for over a month now as I am in desperate need off replacing a hand-me-down innerspring that I’ve been sleeping on for over 4 years (might as well be sleeping in a sinkhole!).
Anyways, I tried out a few mattresses and I’ve figured out that I like a pretty firm mattress, and I also have a featherbed that didn’t get used much because of the aforementioned sinkhole problem. The difficulty in my search is that I’m on a very tight budget ($500 give or take for a queen). I realize that this severely limits my options.
While I was at Ikea with a friend I tested out their latex options, and I really liked the Elsfjord, and it was exactly in my price range. I liked it so much that I bought the Sultan Laxeby bed slats thinking that I would save up a few more weeks until I could buy the mattress. In the meantime, I figured I could put my crappy mattress on it to firm things up. This was a terrible idea. It’s like sleeping on a rock. And worse, there’s a groove in the middle where the halves of the slat base meet up. So it’s like a rock on a slope. I put the featherbed on it and it helps, but my back is still sore every morning. I went back to Ikea to get the bed sooner than I was planning and it turns out they’re sold out indefinitely. I was very disappointed but I think this may have been a blessing in disguise.
So on to my choices after much research. I’ve narrowed things down to either the Tuft and Needle bed (5" polyfoam $400) or the Spindle Blue Shoal (7" synthetic latex $600). Both of these appeal to me for different reasons. I liked the firmness and minimalist aesthetic of the Ikea bed, and the Tuft and Needle seems to be similar (and cheaper!) but a different material. The Spindle bed is appealing because it’s all latex (like the Ikea bed), and comes in two layers which means I can flip and rotate them if one part softens.
I honestly think that I would be happy with either of these beds (to me they seem to have similar PPP characteristics), and I’m tempted to just pull the trigger on the Tuft and Needle because of the price, but I have two main concerns:
Durability. I’ve read a lot of the reviews for Tuft and Needle on Amazon, and while they’re glowing, there have been a few mentions of body impressions in less than a year. To me, the Spindle seems like it would last longer because it’s two layers of foam that can each be flipped and rotated periodically to extend the life. From my research, I’m also under the impression that dunlop latex is far more durable than polyfoam (even the 2lb foam that T and N uses). So my question is, which do you think will last longer? I would be willing to pay 50% more for the Spindle if it lasts more than 50% longer. Based on their warranties (5 years T&L vs. 25 years prorated Spindle), I’m inclined to think the Spindle will have a lower ‘yearly’ cost. Plus, if I the Spindle starts sagging after 10 years, the warranty is like getting a discount replacement mattress. This seems to be the better long term investment.
Bed slats. Will both of these work on the Laxeby bed slats that I have? I like them (just not with my mattress) and I don’t want to return them. I tried laying on them without a mattress and was surprised at how comfortable it felt for just strips of wood. This makes me think that I just need something minimally thick, but sturdy enough to stay flat, but still soft enough for alignment. I think the T&L bed would work just fine because it’s so similar in style to the Ikea Elsfjord that I liked, but I don’t know about the Spindle. Would 7" be too think to get any benefit from the adjustable slats? And furthermore would the slats support the mattress evenly (i.e. flat)?
Ok, sorry for writing a novel. This has been overwhelming, but I think I’m getting close to closure with this project. (Who knew this would be such a project?!) Thank you very much for your help
I’m sure this thread will evolve with people commenting, but I’ll cover a few basics. First, make sure you’ve read the Mattress Shopping Tutorial, which has a link in the top right of the page. Since you used the word PPP, you may have already
Just out of curiousity, if the Elsfjord worked for you and was in budget, why did you remove it? (I am aware Phoenix didn’t really like it in his evaluation of ikea mattresses).
If I’ve read the spindle website correctly, it’s actually 6" of latex (in 2 layers) and 3/4" of polyfoam…which may or may not be important to you.
Both spindle and tuft and needle are members here, so Phoenix thinks very highly of them both.
Besides that, it’ll really be your own evaluation for PPP that matters. The tutorial has some advice for online shopping where you cannot test PPP in person.
As to which will last longer, I’d personally guess the latex, but Phoenix would know better than I. I don’t know that too many mattresses in this price point would be considered a long term 10+ year investment.
As to the laxeby slats, both mattresses should work with them. They will certainly have an impact on the mattresses, although the degree to which you can feel it depends on your perceptions. I have a green sleep slat system under my bed, and can feel a difference with a 9" latex mattress.
Hi dn, thanks for the reply! To clarify, I’ve taken the Ikea bed off my list because it’s semi-permanently sold out at my local store. The saleslady gave me an April estimate for availability. I could order it online, but the shipping costs $130, and for $630, the Spindle and T&N are both cheaper and seem like better options.
For what it’s worth, while I really liked the Elsfjord, it was a tad on the firm side and I was mentally compensating with my featherbed. For me, the combination of zen-like firm/flat, with fluffy on top is heaven. So, it seemed to be a good option. I think the other two that I’m considering are probably a bit softer based on the materials, or the covering in the case of the Spindle. Whichever I get I plan to fine-tune with the featherbed or not. The main priority is firm, which both of these appear to be.
And thanks for the info about the slats. From your comment it seems to be a non-issue, so I guess the main concern now is durability.
I went back and reread your first post. I see now, sold out.
The only caution I’d make is deliberately getting a mattress that’s too firm and assuming you can fix it. While it’s definitely true that it’s easier to ‘fix’ a mattress that’s too firm than it is to fix a mattress that’s too soft, the toppers to do so can have a significant cost if measured as a percentage of your mattress budget. And as you’ve discovered with your current setup, there is such a thing as too firm which even your featherbed can’t totally fix
The return policies or layer exchanges of vendors may help you mitigate that risk if that were important to you.
If you really like that feel and style (minimalist, firm, with your feather topper), there might also be some interesting options with futon mattresses too.
Oh yes, I know all about too firm after the debacle with the mismatched slats and crapmattress that I have. The Tuft and Needle and Spindle both seem softer than Ikea, so I think they’d both work.
I think for now, I’d like to keep it between the two I’ve narrowed it down to for simplicity sake. Unless of course there’s a really compelling reason ($$!) to consider something else that would be just a durable. I guess price and durability are really the main things I’m concerned about, all other things being equal.
Thank you so much for all your advice. Its really a blessing to have informed opinions about all this complicated stuff.
I was editing my post as you added yours I removed wool, since I don’t think you’ll find anything with any significant thickness for $500-600. If you were to, you might like it (or might not)…but I did some poking around and didn’t see anything.
Both your selections are from fine companies and members here. I just hear you saying that you think they’ll be softer than the mattress at ikea, and that may or may not be true (and I definitely don’t know). Only by you testing in person, or talking with those companies who know their products the best, can you determine how likely they will match what you need. The companies might have great return policies to make it less risky, also. (I don’t know the return policies or comfort guarantees of either Spindle or tuft and needle)
If durability is your primary concern then I can’t see how Tuft and Needle can beat out Spindle. They (T&N) have a better satisfaction guarantee, but Spindle’s warranty is much longer (not that you should pay much attention to warranties). But still, latex is going to much more durable than polyfoam. I’d love for Phoenix to chime in.
@jankdc, I’m trying to make the most important thing be about PPP… Both mattresses will likely be durable enough, with no weak links major enough to avoid either. In terms of durability, it’s a choice between good and good. At $400 and $600, I’d focus instead on PPP… The cost difference is minimal, especially over a few years.
dn has made most of the comments that I would have made (thanks dn :)) so I’ll just add a few.
I would agree with this and latex is the most durable of all the foam materials. There are also other factors that can affect the useful life of a mattress though that can make a difference. One of these is where inside your range of comfort and support you are and how much “room” you have for foam softening before you lose the comfort and support that is suitable for you. A mattress that is on the edge of being too firm when it’s new and has a long way to soften before it becomes unsuitable for you will last longer than a similar mattress that is on the edge of being too soft and where only a little bit of softening will take you over the edge. There is more about the factors that can affect durability and the useful life of a mattress in post #4 here.
I believe so yes but I would always check with the manufacturer of your mattress to make sure that a foundation you choose meets their warranty criteria. As you discovered … I would also keep in mind that unlike other flexible slat systems … the Laxeby doesn’t have any “flex” in the middle and this can affect the firmness in the middle of your mattress. This can be more noticeable on thinner mattresses than on thicker ones.
As dn also mentioned … it’s unlikely that these two mattresses would be similar in terms of PPP because they are more of an apples to oranges comparison. To some degree this will also depend on the layer firmnesses you choose with Spindle because it’s several mattresses in one depending on your choices.
As dn also mentioned I think highly of both manufacturers and they both compete well with the best in the industry although they are very different from each other. Spindle has a good layer exchange policy and Tuft and Needle has a good return policy so both of them provide good options after a purchase if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped.
I don’t think you will find a wool mattress in your price range (or in the price range of either of the mattresses you are considering). At best you could find a wool topper that you could add to the mattress (see the options here) but wool is a costly material and can add a significant cost to your sleeping system. It’s also somewhat unique in terms of its “feel” and will get firmer as the wool compresses (although it’s a very durable material) so I would make sure you have the chance to test a wool mattress first to make sure you like it if this is an option you are considering.
There is a list of a few futon manufacturers in post #2 here that make a wide range of futons (including some that use wool) that you could add to your research if you are interested in a futon.
ok now I’m a little confused. I realize that these choices are different materials, but I didn’t think they were that different. And I assumed the firmness would be similar too. In my mind, here’s how they stack up:
Tuft and Needle
Thickness: 5"
Material: 2 lb polyfoam
Firmness: Med Firm
Comfort layers: none
Price: $400
The reason I assumed they’d be a similar firmness is because the T&N seems like it’s a slightly softer core with no comfort layers vs. the Spindle which is a firm core with a thin comfort layer. Am I wrong about this? And I guess I should note that I’m planning to put the featherbed on either, so I think the difference would be negligible as long as they are both sufficiently firm but not rock-like. Would the Spindle be too squishy with the featherbed on top of the polyfoam? Now that I think about it, I wonder if I could order the Spindle without the comfort layer and replace it with the featherbed. It seems a phone call is in order.
In terms of the differences in PPP am I missing something? If anyone could clarify exactly how these two are different in terms of feel, I would greatly appreciate it. I thought I had an idea, but now I’m second-guessing myself.
And as always, thank you so much for your help. This forum is an extremely valuable resource.
ok now I’m a little confused. I realize that these choices are different materials, but I didn’t think they were that different. And I assumed the firmness would be similar too. In my mind, here’s how they stack up:
Tuft and Needle
Thickness: 5"
Material: 2 lb polyfoam
Firmness: Med Firm
Comfort layers: none
Price: $400
The reason I assumed they’d be a similar firmness is because the T&N seems like it’s a slightly softer core with no comfort layers vs. the Spindle which is a firm core with a thin comfort layer. Am I wrong about this? And I guess I should note that I’m planning to put the featherbed on either, so I think the difference would be negligible as long as they are both sufficiently firm but not rock-like. Would the Spindle be too squishy with the featherbed on top of the polyfoam? Now that I think about it, I wonder if I could order the Spindle without the comfort layer and replace it with the featherbed. It seems a phone call is in order.
In terms of the differences in PPP am I missing something? If anyone could clarify exactly how these two are different in terms of feel, I would greatly appreciate it. I thought I had an idea, but now I’m second-guessing myself.
And as always, thank you so much for your help. This forum is an extremely valuable resource.
A call to Spindle is an excellent idea. They may also be able to customize the latex to differing firmnesses, depending on your discussions with them.
The risky part of your approach is that you are imagining in your mind how these mattresses will feel. It’s been my experience that using your mind to imagine what the specs you’ve read will feel like is only rarely accurate, based on my own experimentation with building my own mattresses.
You’ll note in the tutorial Phoenix spends a good amount of time discussing how to test a mattress in a showroom for PPP… You need to feel it to know, and even then people often need 30-60 days to tell for sure.
As to the two mattresses, except for being on the firm side, they are very different materials and will feel different. To what degree you notice or care about the differences will depend on how sensitive you are (can sleep on anything vs princess and pea type). PPP cannot be evaluated by specs and imagining how they would feel alone.
I don’t know know these 2 mattresses will feel different to you. I don’t even know how they would feel different for myself. Nobody on this forum will be able to tell you what/how you will feel each different mattress. Only testing in person, as described in the Mattress Shoppong tutorial, will let you know that.
Per the tutorial, where you cannot test PPP in person (and I’m assuming you’ve neither laid on a tuft and needle or spindle), then calling the vendor and discussing your desires and leveraging their expert knowledge about their product is best. With tuft and needle, I think they only make 1 model right now, so a phone call is likely less important - instead, they seem to use a great return policy. You should double check the return policy to make sure it works for you and you know what it says/means.
It can be surprising to many people how much difference seemingly minor differences between two mattresses can make. Different types of materials, different layering combinations, different firmness levels for each layer, different thicknesses of the mattress or the individual layers, and differences in the cover can all make a significant difference in how well a mattress will “match” different body types, sleeping styles, and preferences vs another one. Some mattresses that seem to be very different from each other may “feel” or perform in a very similar way for some people while others that seem to be very similar can feel and perform very differently. This is all part of the “art and science” of mattress design and construction and why there are so many different types of mattresses. Some people are also much more sensitive to smaller differences between mattresses and are closer to the “princess and the pea” end of the scale while others don’t seem to notice much difference at all between mattresses that most people would think were very different and are closer to the “I can sleep on anything” end of the scale.
I wouldn’t suggest this. A featherbed will be very different from a layer of foam and having only a single firm layer (for support and to prevent you from bottoming out) under a featherbed (which is a completely unsupportive material and used for “comfort” only) will be very different and would likely be very firm. The odds are that there wouldn’t be enough foam to contour well to your body profile and “fill in the gaps” of your sleeping profile to provide “even” support along the full length of your body. Both mattresses use softer foam on top and firmer foam deeper in the mattress to provide a combination of pressure relief and support and a “balance” between them.
This is the part that only your own experience can answer because they will both “feel” different to different people with different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences. As dn mentioned … outside of actually testing them … the most effective way to “predict” what either one will feel like for you would be a more detailed conversation with each manufacturer.
First of thank you (yet again!). I had tried a few mattresses at Sleepys months ago but walked out confused and overwhelmed and convinced I couldn’t afford a new mattress. Anyways, since I was basing my assumptions about materials on that convoluted experience I decided to go to Worley Beds today to test drive some options and get a clearer sense of what I’m looking at. They even happened to have the exact same featherbed that I have for trying things out.
I really liked the foam/cotton futon mattress (and it was only $200!!) but I ruled that out because my bed slats are not 100% level and I didn’t want to deal with a gutter in the middle of my bed again.
I also tried a poly foam mattress that I really liked ($400). Patrick said that it’s 8" 1.5 lb density foam with medium firmness for the support layer and soft for the comfort layer. With the feather bed it was more or less what I’m looking for - firm enough with no bounce and fluffy on top. I also asked about synthetic latex but they didn’t have any because he said it’s not high quality. We also talked about the Spindle bed, and he said that based on experience it’s generally not a good idea to have mattress layers that are not attached to each other. I’m inclined to believe him. That, combined with all this talk about low quality latex (and the higher price tag), has lead me to rule out Spindle.
So now it’s between the foam mattress at Worley’s and Tuft and Needle. Because of the higher foam density, it seems that the Tuft and Needle will be more durable, and at the same price point, I’d say it’s the better deal. But it’s still hard to compare firmness and comfort layers because aside from the 1/4" thick cover, there aren’t any on the T&N. Worley’s said they price match, so I called and they said to send them a link and they’ll see what they can do. If they can come up with something similar and at a similar price, I’d be inclined to go with them because they’re very local to me. Plus their service was great and I could get the mattress sooner.
I’ll let you know how things work out, I’m hoping to pull the trigger in the next couple of days. Thank you again for all the great advice and information. At this point I feel confident that no matter what I end up with, I’m going to get something I love and at a great price to boot!
Shopping at a chain store would do that to almost anyone because the salespeople there know very little about their mattresses and what is inside them and almost everything they tell you is “marketing speak” or gobbledygook designed to sell you a mattress before you walk out the door. Most of the members here that have spent more than an hour or so on this site know more meaningful information about mattresses than the majority of salespeople in the industry that sell them.
I think you may be ruling them out for the wrong reasons. Latex layers inside a tight mattress cover don’t need to be glued (see post #15 here) and even the synthetic latex they use is a higher quality material than polyfoam (Note: Spindle is now only using 100% natural continuous pour Dunlop in their mattresses). Loose layers with a tight zip cover have the advantage that you can either rearrange or exchange them if you need to fine tune your mattress and also that down the road you can replace a single layer in the mattress if it becomes necessary for durability or comfort reasons without having to replace the entire mattress.
Of course I also think highly of Worleys and they have the advantage that you can test them in person which may also be an important part of your personal value equation.
I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding and you are certainly looking at some good options.
Just a quick update- I finally decided on the Tuft and Needle bed and it will be arriving on Saturday. In the interest of helping other people who are making similar decisions, the main factors in my purchase were their return policy, price ($375 for a queen with the MU discount), and overall value. I am expecting this mattress to last at least 4-5 years, so we’ll see what happens. I almost bought a similar mattress from Worley beds, but at the same price, the T&N seemed to be a much better value because it uses denser foam and has a return policy. I figure if it doesn’t work out, then I can return it and start over. At that point, my decision would be between Worley and Spindle, but I’m not going to worry about that unless I have to. I will be sure to post more updates once I’ve had a chance to sleep on the Tuft and Needle.
For reference, from bottom to top I have been sleeping on:
collapsible metal frame
IKEA Laxeby slatted bed base Products - IKEA
Tuft and Needle 5"
Pacific Coast Baffle Box Featherbed Featherbeds | Pacific Coast Feather
all in Queen size.
I love love love this setup. I cannot sing its praises enough. The Tuft and Needle bed alone is great, but I really like the feel of a feather bed, this is the holy grail. It feels like sleeping on the ground, but in a good way. Think - a thick layer of topsoil with lots of soft grass on top. Soft but firm, and most importantly, NO BOUNCE!
The bed is off the ground, which I like because it gives me extra storage space, but it still has a low profile. The slatted base has some give, but overall this setup feels very sturdy. I feel like I’m climbing into a custom made nest every night, I look forward to it all day. After over a month, I have grown to love it even more, and have not noticed any deterioration in comfort or construction.
On another note, I ended up moving unexpectedly for a new job after having the mattress for only 3 weeks. And I’m sooo glad I had this mattress. Moving it was a dream. I just disassembled all the components, rolled up the mattress and tied it. I could move each piece by myself, and they all fit nicely in the back of a big SUV - no moving truck required. If you move a lot, or anticipate moving while you have this mattress, I cannot recommend it enough.
I’m not sure what else to say about it except that this mattress has exceeded my expectations. And for the price, I feel extremely lucky. If you have specific questions, please let me know and I will try my best to answer them.
Thanks for the detailed recount of your buying process. Was considering the same models but because of this thread I will be purchasing a T&N king mattress. Much appreciated!
