Hi,
I’ve been doing my homework on mattresses in the UK (thank you for this site) and came to the conclusion in a store that a pocket sprung base with memory foam top felt best in store (in particular this one. https://www.bensonsforbeds.co.uk/igel-orion-mattress-platinum.) In a 3 firmness (I know, means nothing but full disclosure and all )
But £1100 is well beyond my budget. Looking online a ''bed in a box company’that recently started up in the UK caught my eye as they have a similar build (in addition to an amazing looking site)) within my budget. https://www.sleepingduck.com/uk/titan.html
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I also looked at John Ryan which was impressive but didn’t have the build I wanted.
So I emailed sleeping duck to ask the questions you highlight here and got this reply (from the CEO I believe!):
“We use 20mm memory foam, 20mm latex (80% Natural, 20% synthetic sourced from Belgium) and 60mm high resiliency (high density foam), we make it a point not to reveal the densities and hardnesses of our foams but rest assured they are rated to last 10 years. There are approximately 800 springs in the king size (we have tried more, but are finding we get the best outcome with this amount) and the gauge is 2.3mm around the edge and 2.0mm & 1.8mm through the middle.”
They are CertiPur verified but alarm bells are going off about not revealing densities, obviously. say I decided to ignore that and go on trust, is 20mm of each foam layer enough to work? it seems awfully thin but then I guess if you have many layers theres only so high you can go. I’ve not really found much on here. (Or john ryan/mattress nerd) about layering so many types together, as while 20mm of memory foam seems too thin, as 20mm of latex is OK, does that mean it ‘protects’ the memory foam?
While the latex and the springs are good quality materials and components … the polyfoam layer and the memory foam layer together add up to over 80 cm (3.15") which is more than “about an inch or so” of lower quality or unknown foam" in the upper layers of the mattress which the guidelines here suggest avoiding. At the very least I would want to know the density of the polyfoam layer (the memory foam layer is under an inch by itself) and if they weren’t willing to disclose this so you can make an informed choice about the quality/durability of the materials in the mattress I would pass it by.
CertiPUR tests polyfoam and memory foam (not latex) for harmful substances and VOC’s and is a “safety” certification but it doesn’t provide any meaningful information about the quality or durability of the foam layers.
Every layer and component of a mattress will have some effect on the feel and performance of every other layer and component of a mattress and the mattress “as a whole” but whether any particular mattress design or combination of layers will “work” or not depends on how you are defining “working” and would also depend on the body type, sleeping style, and preferences and sensitivities of the person on the mattress along with the specific properties of each foam layer and the pocket coil itself.
The properties of thinner foam layers or components or layers or foam layers or components that are deeper in a mattress will be less noticeable than the properties of foam layers or components that are thicker or that are closer to the sleeping surface. It would be very unusual for a pocket coil mattress to only have 20 mm of foam in total on top of the pocket coil and for most people and most pocket coils this probably wouldn’t be “thick enough” by itself but it certainly could be “enough” in combination with other foam layers. Different types and combinations of foam layers will change the “feel” and performance of a mattress and some people may prefer one combination and others may prefer a different combination. Any particular combination of layers and components may be a good match for a particular person in terms of “comfort” and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and they may sleep well on it but the same combination may also be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on.
Of course I would always also want to confirm the quality and durability of the layers as well so that you have a reasonable idea of how long you are likely to sleep well before foam softening and the breakdown of the materials leads to the loss of comfort and support and the need to replace the mattress.
Welcome to the Mattress Forum!
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Thank you very much!
This is what I was worried about - I’m pleased you think the springs and latex are good quality but I didn’t want to jump in and buy a £600 bed that has that much unknown material in it. After all if its really good stuff then why not advertise it as such!
On the other hand aren’t latex and springs the most expensive components, in which case does cutting costs from that middle part make sense from a manufactures point of view?
After I said I wasn’t sure about such a thin layer of memory foam and an unknown denser material he said that as the bed is totally modular they would replace either component if it showed signs of wear. Does that just sound like marketing speak to you? The cynic in me believes its no different from the normal “10 year warrenty” promises mattress companies make.
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CertiPUR tests polyfoam and memory foam (not latex) for harmful substances and VOC’s and is a “safety” certification but it doesn’t provide any meaningful information about the quality or durability of the foam layers.
Every layer and component of a mattress will have some effect on the feel and performance of every other layer and component of a mattress and the mattress “as a whole” but whether any particular mattress design or combination of layers will “work” or not depends on how you are defining “working” and would also depend on the body type, sleeping style, and preferences and sensitivities of the person on the mattress along with the specific properties of each foam layer and the pocket coil itself.
The properties of thinner foam layers or components or layers or foam layers or components that are deeper in a mattress will be less noticeable than the properties of foam layers or components that are thicker or that are closer to the sleeping surface. It would be very unusual for a pocket coil mattress to only have 20 mm of foam in total on top of the pocket coil and for most people and most pocket coils this probably wouldn’t be “thick enough” by itself but it certainly could be “enough” in combination with other foam layers. Different types and combinations of foam layers will change the “feel” and performance of a mattress and some people may prefer one combination and others may prefer a different combination. Any particular combination of layers and components may be a good match for a particular person in terms of “comfort” and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and they may sleep well on it but the same combination may also be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on.
Of course I would always also want to confirm the quality and durability of the layers as well so that you have a reasonable idea of how long you are likely to sleep well before foam softening and the breakdown of the materials leads to the loss of comfort and support and the need to replace the mattress.
Phoenix[/quote]
Thanks a lot for the detailed and informative reply; I’m going to keep looking. The problem is in this price point I’ve not found anything I really like in a King size. Pure foam beds really didn’t feel nice to me, and pocket springs tend to cost a fortune already without adding layers on top. I was really hoping to find something like that orion (2500 pocket springs and 10cm foam/latex) at under £700 but I think I’ll have to find something else suitable as even getting a 2000 spring bed from John Ryan with a view to adding a topper is £950 before I’ve looked at getting the topper!
While some information can legitimately be considered to be proprietary to a manufacturer … there are many manufacturers that claim that the information you would need to make an informed choice is also somehow “proprietary” but I certainly wouldn’t agree. You can read a little more about “so called” proprietary materials and using this as a justification for not disclosing what I would consider to be essential information here and here and here.
It certainly makes sense because there isn’t “room” in a mattress in this budget range to use the most costly materials from top to bottom but there would certainly be room to use less costly materials that are still “durable enough” that they wouldn’t be a “weak link” in a mattress and lead to premature or excess foam softening or breakdown before 7 - 10 years.
This is really just “marketing speak” because normally “signs of wear” involve a visible impression in the mattress that is more than a specific measured amount. Foam materials can soften (lose firmness or what is often called a virtual impression which isn’t visible when you are off the mattress) before it develops “visible impressions” (that can be measured) and foam softening can lead to the loss of comfort and support and the need to replace a mattress regardless of whether any visible impressions are deeper than the warranty exclusion.
[quote]Thanks a lot for the detailed and informative reply; I’m going to keep looking. The problem is in this price point I’ve not found anything I really like in a King size. Pure foam beds really didn’t feel nice to me, and pocket springs tend to cost a fortune already without adding layers on top. I was really hoping to find something like that orion (2500 pocket springs and 10cm foam/latex) at under £700 but I think I’ll have to find something else suitable as even getting a 2000 spring bed from John Ryan with a view to adding a topper is £950 before I’ve looked at getting the topper!
I’m not familiar with the prices in the UK market but it may not be realistic to find a king size mattress like the Orion in the budget range you are looking for.
The Origins latex/pocket coil 1500 mattress you linked certainly uses higher quality and more costly materials and components (including thicker layers of latex and wool) than the Sleepingduck and if it’s only £50 pounds more (unless I’m reading it wrong the websites appear to indicate that the difference is more than that) it would certainly appear to be a better “value” purchase based on the type, qualityy, and cost of the materials but of course this is also assuming that it would be a good “match” for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) as well.
Thank you very much for the further reply, Phoenix.
I did indeed mistype that, it’s actually £150 difference which is why it’s too far out of my budget; for £50 more it wouldn’t be an issue, I could wait, but £150 is a big step up.
From what you say, and my own gut feelings, I really ought to try and find another alternative.
Though that said if I can’t find something in my price range then I might give it a try, against my better judgement. At least with the 100 day policy I’d have short term insurance, if not long term, but ideally I’ll find something else within my price range first.
The trial period would certainly be helpful to assess whether an online purchase is a good “match” for you in terms of comfort and PPP but the suitability of a mattress is a completely different issue from the durability of a mattress and a 100 day trial period wouldn’t be nearly long enough to be helpful with any issues that are related to the durability of a mattress or the use of any lower quality materials in the mattress.
I hope you find a mattress that meets all your criteria and I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding … and of course any other comments or questions you may have along the way.
Ok, here we go again. They make it sound sooooooo good don’t they?!!! Having returned my Eve and really not know where to go next, I have to say I’m tempted. It’s sufficiently different from the Eve and Lessa (pocket springs) and I like that they’ve recognized the need for two firmness levels. I wonder if the fact that the comfort level can be swapped will also mean a replacement can be bought to rejuvinate the mattress after a few years?
A possible issue is that the difference between the two firmness levels is done in the comfort layer rather than the springs?
I was a bit miffed that there weren’t the usual prominent 5 star reviews, but I found these here, for what they are worth:
I read through quite a lot of them and the Q&A’s which seem very real.
Pocket spring in a box? Haven’t heard of that before?
I might give them a call tomorrow. Any questions you recommend I ask?
By the way, in my ongoing quest for the perfect mattress I tried a couple of John Ryans. I have great respect for the company, their customer care was top rate and mattresses seemed to be of a very high standard. The only reason I don’t own one now is that they advised a return & refund (all at their expense) rather than try something else. It would be interesting to hear how they stand up to be bit of your interrogation Phoenix! These small made to order type companies seem to offer much better value than the the mass produced ones sold by the big retailers.
Only if you are buying into the marketing rather than using more objective criteria
I would keep in mind that “different” may not mean “better” and that the only way to know whether any mattress will be a good “match” for you in terms of PPP will be based on your own personal experience.
According to their site you can either flip the top layer to change the firmness and you can also exchange the top layer for a different firmness level as well should that be necessary. This would also mean that you could replace just the top layer if it softens or breaks down before the deeper layers in the mattress (which is quite likely) or if your needs and preferences change over time without needing to replace the complete mattress.
Of course as I mentioned in my other reply … I would make sure that you can find out all the information here about any mattress you are considering before making any purchase.
While other people’s comments about the knowledge and service of a particular business can certainly be very helpful … I would always keep in mind that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and I would be cautious about about using other people’s experiences or reviews on a mattress (either positive or negative) or review sites in general as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you and in many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful because most consumers have little knowledge about mattresses and mattress materials or how to assess the quality of the materials in a mattress and any mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on (even if they are in a similar weight range). In other words … reviews in general certainly won’t tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or “value” of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here).
When you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and “feel” of the materials they are using (fast or slow response, resilience, firmness etc) and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs and any firmness level options they have to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with than anyone else.
Unlike linked innersprings which can’t be roll packed and compressed … most pocket coils can be compressed for shipping just like foam mattresses.
I would talk with them about your firmness choice and I would make sure that you can find out all the information here although based on post #1 earlier in this topic it seems that they won’t provide the information you need about their foam densities to make an informed choice which for me would be reason enough to pass the mattress by.
While I haven’t talked with them in person … based on the time I’ve spent on their website I would certainly consider them to be transparent and they provide reliable information about their mattresses and mattress materials and I think they would certainly be among the better UK choices I’ve seen (see post #5 here as well).
I spoke to someone at the UK office who said that they don’t disclose the specs of the materials because they don’t want their competitors to copy them! Then went on to claim they invented this simplified mattress in a box idea!
They did confirm that the springs were on the firm side (and could be replaced separately) and that there was also a third softer version of the topper. I quite like the idea of a modular mix & match mattress, but it would need to include the springs.
They’re out of stock at the moment, so I’m going to go with something else and keep this as an option to explore if that doesn’t work out (but I hope it does, getting board of this now)!
The idea that they “invented” the mattress in a box idea is of course ridiculous and other manufacturers have been doing this for many years (and in some cases decades).
While some information can legitimately be considered to be proprietary to a manufacturer … there are many manufacturers that claim that the information you would need to make an informed choice is also somehow “proprietary” but I certainly wouldn’t agree. You can read a little more about “so called” proprietary materials and using this as a justification for not disclosing what I would consider to be essential information here and here and here.
Another manufacturer would need much more information than just knowing the quality/density of the materials in a mattress be able to duplicate it. If all they disclosed is the type and quality/density of the materials in his mattresses that can affect durability they still wouldn’t need to disclose the “comfort specs” or other information that would be the biggest part of how a mattress feels. Any manufacturer that was truly interested in “duplicating” one of his mattresses also would have no trouble buying one if they wanted to and “reverse engineering” it anyway.
I would avoid any manufacturer or retailer that either can’t or won’t provide you with the “quality specs” you need to make an informed choice and confirm the quality and durability of the materials and the mattress “as a whole” because this type of “blind” purchase would be much too risky.
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