Want cushiness with minimal butt-sinking

Hello, Phoenix!

Been a lurker here for a few years. But now I have a question.

I like some cush but I hate having my butt sink in further than my torso, and I’m having trouble finding a bed that accommodates those contradictory desires.

Considering I’m not all that heavy – 5’9", 165 pounds – I think it might just be that I’m dense (I tend not to float in water easily) and also that I have lumbar issues (herniated disc at L5) so I’m overly sensitive to it. My wife is as heavy as I am, and she doesn’t make an imprint (or divot) in the bed like I do (and she floats on water like a swan). (We’re fine with starting out in the same bed but then going separate ways for the night, so at least I’m not trying to find a bed that suits us both.)

My first bed was from SleepEZ. They were as helpful as they could be, but no combination of layers quite satisfied me. For cush, I really liked having a topper, or at least a soft layer for the top, but that left me with my butt sinking in more than I want, throwing off my alignment. Without that soft top, I was less happy both on my side and on my back. Firm (bottom) - Medium - Soft let my butt sink in too much, although I liked the feel apart from that. With Firm - Medium - Medium, even with a 1.5" memory foam topper (Aerus) the bed had too little give (my shoulder hurt when I was on my side; and my butt isn’t well-padded and hurt a little, too). With Firm - Soft - Medium, my butt was sinking in, with or without the topper; without the topper I found it hurt my shoulder when I was on my side; with the topper, I sank in even more, of course – OK on my side but not on my back. Although not perfect, the best was Firm - Soft - Medium-with-the-topper; if the topper had had a firmer middle (butt) section, that might have worked, but I haven’t found such a topper.

Next I tried a Saatva, which I still have. I think I prefer the spring-feel over the latex-feel, though in stores I’d found both comfortable. (Unfortunately, I need overnight to judge a mattress.) Although I got Saatva’s Luxury Firm, I have to say my specific bed was not as plush as I’d expected it would be. I felt like I wanted more cushioning on the moment-to-moment basis, but I figured it was fine since it was plush enough to be comfortable enough (unlike the SleepEZ with Firm-Med-Med) but left me free of back ache in the morning (unlike the SleepEZ with anything softer than Firm-Med-Med). If the Saatva could have stayed like that, I would be keeping it. It’s borderline OK still (at two months), but I expect it will just get worse. In short, the foam seems to be getting compressed too much; I don’t think it’s the springs yet. (To be fair I should mention I spend a lot of time in bed. Besides sleeping a regular eight, it’s my primary place to read, surf the net, and watch TV – so it’s maybe 15 hours each day.)

I think part of what I like with the Saatva comes from their doing something to strengthen the lumbar area. In any event, for some reason, my butt seemed to sink in less, while the mattress still had a thick somewhat cushy feel. However, I now need to move to the center of the bed, where I haven’t yet been compressing the padding, in order to have that feeling.

So I think I’d like a bed that has some kind of strengthening for the lumbar/butt area but has super-good quality foam that won’t compress much over time. One way I could maybe do this is to buy a “flippable” mattress from my local Bedrooms & More in Seattle, which uses latex for the padding on their spring mattresses and constructs their mattresses so they can be flipped. I don’t know how much longer the flipping would help the cushiness and butt support last, but it must be some. I don’t know if Bedrooms & More does anything to provide extra strength in the butt area to prevent it sinking in as much.

This might be an odd way to explain what I like, but: On the SleepEZ, I could arch my butt up off the mattress while putting all my weight on my heels and shoulders, and in doing that it felt like my butt had come up a long way from where it rested when I wasn’t arching. (Think of it like doing the plank exercise, but in reverse.) In contrast, on the Saatva, especially when new, doing this “reverse plank” seemed to pull my butt up only very slightly from where it was resting when I was just lying there. Hence, when new, I liked the Saatva better.

So maybe you know beds that extra-strengthen the lumbar/butt area or somehow or other help with what I’m looking for.

Thanks!

Hi TalkingDog,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

While I can certainly help with “how” to choose, it’s not possible for me to make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress or combinations of materials or components, as there are just too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person. The first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress, and you have some very specific needs for your mattress. The most reliable manner to make a decision is based upon your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here), and you do have a few experiences that you listed and based upon that I’ll try to offer up a few ideas that you may find assistive…

[quote]My first bed was from SleepEZ. They were as helpful as they could be, but no combination of layers quite satisfied me
Firm (bottom) - Medium - Soft let my butt sink in too much, although I liked the feel apart from that.
Firm - Medium - Medium, even with a 1.5" memory foam topper (Aerus) the bed had too little give
Firm - Soft - Medium, my butt was sinking in, with or without the topper[/quote]
You didn’t list if the latex was Talalay or Dunlop, or if you tried a mixture of both. I’m assuming these were the 3" layers. And I’m guessing the topper was the 1.5" Aerus memory foam topper. After reading through everything you stated a dominant layer on top seems to make sense (at least with this configuration) and you stated that was what you liked the best. With everything you stated, and again not knowing the mix of the latex, I would have been interested to learn what a firm, medium Talalay, medium Dunlop, and 2" plush Dunlop topper would have felt to you. But that bed is gone, so what was learned from what you tested was that you did like some plushness on top, but with your dimensions and preferences you need a supportive transition layering, but not too hard.

[quote]Next I tried a Saatva, which I still have.I think I prefer the spring-feel over the latex-feel
I got Saatva’s Luxury Firm. It’s borderline OK still (at two months), but I expect it will just get worse. I now need to move to the center of the bed, where I haven’t yet been compressing the padding, in order to have that feeling.
I think part of what I like with the Saatva comes from their doing something to strengthen the lumbar area.[/quote]
You certainly may have an affinity for the feel of steel versus foam for the support core of a mattress – there really is no one correct answer, as long as the componentry is of a high enough quality. Polyfoam will take more of a set than latex and there will be more of a “false firmness” associated with that type of product. The Saatva does have a middle third zoning with the base Bonnell spring unit, and there is also some zoning in the foam layers with a bit of memory foam and zoning in the quilt. This certainly can provide a bit more durability in the area you desire, but as you’ve discovered the polyfoams will soften (they do use about 2" of foams that are lower quality than I would normally like to see), and you’re already switching to the areas of the mattress where the foams haven’t already lost their false firmness, so this may not end up being right for you as well over time. I guess you’ll have to wait and see about that.

Based upon your previous comments and current experience, there may be a few things you’d want to investigate. One I talked about previously and you tried, and it’s something I term using a dominant layer in the uppermost layer of a mattress. This is using a bit of a higher ILD foam above a lower ILD foam for a bit more of a “supportive and taut” surface comfort. There is more about dominating layers if you click here.

A second thing you may wish to consider, and you’ve also brought this up, is a zoned mattress, allowing for the slight sinking in that you desire but something that still can provide support and comfort. Various zoning systems can also be very useful and worth considering for people who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to “match” to a mattress, more complex medical issues, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is more about zoned mattress construction here and zoning in post #11 here. There’s also a detailed thread about reverse zoning here that you might find interesting.

Flobeds, a member her of the site (which means that I think highly of them) offers some very unique zoned systems. Berkeley Ergonomics has some mattresses that use innersprings with latex on top that are also zoned and configurable. As zoning can get quite technical and complicated, if you are considering pursuing a system like this your next best step would be a detailed phone conversation with any vendor that does offer a zoned system and to use their guidance in assessing your needs.

Another thing you’d want to consider, as you use your mattress as a chair as well as a mattress, would be to make sure that anything you chose used good quality componentry in the upper layers, specifically latex foam, polyfoam over 2.0 lb. density, or micro- or nano-coil spring units in the upholstery layers.

While I can’t speak to whether any of these suggestions would be a good “match” for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP, they all use good quality materials and there are no lower quality materials or weak links in any of them that would be a reason for concern in terms of the quality or durability of the materials.

I hope that information helps you out a bit. I’ll be interested in what you decide to do with your current mattress and if you try any other options.

Phoenix

Good luck hope you find what you’re looking for

Hi barneycalhoun,

While I appreciate your willingness to assist TalkingDog, I had to make a few adjustments/corrections to your post.

Your link to the three zone bed description didn’t go to such a page, so I deleted it, and I had already posted about zoned mattress construction here and zoning in post #11 here . Also, your link to piece of zoned foam was too promotional so I edited that out as well.

In general, Dunlop will compress faster thank Talalay for the first 25% of so, feeling a bit softer, then it will firm up faster than Talalay with deeper compression, Of course, this also all depends upon the completed mattress and how all of the layers work together. You can read more about Dunlop (of either type) vs Talalay latex in post #7 here.

This is simply an online layer selector for a SleepEZ mattress, ant not a tool for general mattress, or zoning configuration and again was not germane to the original questions of the OP.

While I certainly don’t mind you posting on the forum, it would also be helpful if you could post more accurate and “educational” information that has some facts behind it and is specific to the OP questions rather than the type of “broad brush” opinions that are rarely accurate or helpful.

Phoenix

Thanks for that thoughtful reply. Frankly, I made a mistake not asking these questions of you when I had the SleepEZ and was doing my endless re-arranging of the layers. Your endurance for discussing this stuff is amazing. I want a comfortable bed for myself, and I generally lack the endurance even on my own behalf that you regularly exhibit!

First I need to correct one absolutely understandable misunderstanding. You believe I need a mattress that takes into account my using it to sit on as well as to lie on, but I don’t ever sit on it. Here’s why: When I read in bed or browse the web on my tablet, I use this ergonomic book-holder[/url]/tablet-holder. When I watch TV in bed, I use “prism eyeglasses” (or, actually, a vintage set of Swift “BedSpecs” with good ground-glass prisms). As a result, I’m always lying in bed, never sitting.

As for Dunlop versus Talalay… The soft layer from SleepEZ is always Talalay, so the middle layer in Firm-Soft-Medium was Talalay. As for the other two layers, for my immediate sense of comfort, I liked the Talalay – but it turns out I’m a Dunlop guy. I couldn’t sleep on the Talalay without awakening with back problems. So the best combination was Dunlop-Firm/Talalay-Soft/Dunlop-Medium. It’s interesting you seemed to intuit I might do better with Dunlop. While SleepEZ’s owner thought my getting both Dunlop and Talalay to try them out was a good idea, the SleepEZ employees I talked to when I later called for advice seemed to think the difference between Dunlop and Talalay were of no consequence. I’m sure it was, however.

You said above:

I never considered a different topper. I think I didn’t consider it because I figured it wouldn’t be returnable and I didn’t know what direction to go with it, anyway. But maybe I should try exactly what you’ve suggested. If I do, do you think it matters if the bottom firm layer is Talalay or Dunlop? I would assume I’d want Dunlop. It’s also interesting that you’re suggesting a medium Talalay for the middle layer, rather than a soft layer or a Dunlop layer.

Looking at my notes, I did try a Firm-Medium-Medium+Topper. Unfortunately, I didn’t write down which layer was which, but I think I only tried Dunlop in the middle and Talalay on top. The topper would have been the 1.5" Aerus. Here is what I wrote in my “mattress diary” about that combination: “Seems pretty good on my back, but not comfortable on my side, partly because my hip doesn’t sink in but primarily because my shoulder hurts when I’m on my side.” This makes me wonder if your combo would work: On my side I was finding the mattress too hard even with a Soft in the middle, and you’re suggesting a Medium in the middle; you’re also suggesting a 2" plush (Soft, yes?) Dunlop topper in place of the Aerus – so, do you think the 2" plush Dunlop would offer enough additional cushioning (when substituted for the Aerus) to more than make up for a Medium in the middle where I had had a Soft? I fear that on my side I’d find this arrangement too hard, especially on my shoulder; but maybe that Dunlop topper would alleviate the problem? (Also, I didn’t think there even was such a thing as soft Dunlop – the SleepEZ website, as I recall, says the Dunlop process can’t make a good soft-ILD product. Also, it seems SleepEZ specifically sells only 3" toppers, and I think you’re right that 2" would suit me better. (I have seen 2" Dunlop toppers elsewhere.)

I’d like your opinion on my just trying the above again. (I don’t know if SleepEZ would even want to sell to me again, or if I could find another similar seller for multi=layered latex mattresses of both Dunlop and Talalay.)

Now we get to the next, I guess obvious, avenue to try: FloBeds’ vZone mattress. Since I don’t like my butt sinking in, I thought maybe some firmer latex under my butt and lumbar would do the trick, and I could do that with the vZone. But I have at least two reservations: FloBeds sells only Talalay, and I had problems with the Talalay – not for my immediate sense of comfort (“pressure relief”) but for my next-morning back issues (“alignment”). Do you think the vZone arrangement might make irrelevant whatever the Dunlop advantage has been? Or should I stick with Dunlop? Also, I wonder if I’d end up not liking the firm section under my butt once I experienced it: with the firmer mattress arrangements, I sometimes found my butt didn’t get the pressure relief I’d have wanted. (That’s become somewhat the case with my Saatva as the cushioning has flattened, as well as with the firmer SleepEZ arrangements.)

You also referred me to discussions of zoning. It seemed to me that some of what was discussed was just layering like SleepEZ does – I’ll call that horizontal zoning. The other was to have different firmness levels under different parts of your body – I’ll call that vertical zoning. I haven’t seen anywhere online to purchase beds with vertical zoning, other than FloBeds’ vZone. You suggested Berkeley Ergonomics, but their website left me with the impression that you really have to go to their showroom. Are there other sellers offering vertically zoned mattresses? I haven’t found them.

In one of the posts you sent me to, you talk about “Three zone mattresses with a firmer layer in the middle under the lumbar and pelvis and 2 softer zones above and below this.” Where the heck do you find these? Also, in it you refer to men with wider shoulders and narrow hips – I’m far from Michael Phelps, but I am in that direction, with quite narrow hips (accompanied now that I’m in my 60’s be a small pot belly) and average-to-slightly-wide shoulders.

I have another question about zoning. If I had a layer with vertical zoning – which I imagine as just three pieces: firmer in a piece going from my lower ribs to mid-thigh, and softer pieces for under my head-and-shoulders and under my legs; or if I were using the 7-piece vZone – could I have a moderately soft bed apart from that? Apart from alignment, why would anyone want a bed that wasn’t soft? Until now, I’ve always had to sleep on rather firm beds or my back hurts in the morning – if I had a vZone-type layer propping up my mid-section, would I still need the rest of the mattress to be firm?

Or is there some other way to get a vertically zoned layer into a bed built along the lines of the SleepEZ? Maybe I’m wrong, but I wondered if I just had a SleepEZ but with a substituted zoned middle layer, or a zoned topper. (Mind you, I’ve never seen a topper zoned like I’ve described, although it seems like an obvious one to me; and except for FloBeds’ vZone (which they don’t offer as just a layer you can buy by itself), I haven’t seen other vertical zoning offerings.

You wanted to hear my final decision on the Saatva. I’m going to return it. I have to say, my back almost never hurts in the morning, at least not a lot, but I just don’t find it very comfortable while I’m on it. Not quite uncomfortable, but no sense of delight (which I did have somewhat when it was new; and the support was slightly better then, too). Even at the beginning, it seemed firmer than advertised (and much less plush than Consumer Reports’ description of the mattress they reviewed, which was the same model as mine) but the support was good and has remained pretty good. The padding, however, has flattened out too much. I considered “settling” for the Saatva since it’s not actually bad and my back has done relatively well on it, but my wife said, in essence, “At this point, why just settle?”

By the way, yes, I’d read and referred to your tutorial from the very beginning of my hunt for a new mattress. Unfortunately, in person store experience isn’t very helpful, even when I think the salespeople are good. The problem is that most not-overly-hard beds feel good to me in the store. In fact, I gravitate toward moderately plush beds in the showroom context, though they probably would be a problem if I bought them. I’ve spent as much as two hours at one time on a bed at Bedrooms & More here in Seattle, but that doesn’t tell me how my back will be in the morning. I really need a whole night in bed to find out. I’ve asked various salespeople and my wife to check my alignment on different beds, too, and they’ve always reported it seems fine, at least on everything that isn’t overly plush. (Memory foam may also throw my alignment off, I don’t recall with certainty.).

Thanks again for your patience and dedication. Personally, I sure wish this were easier!

Hi TalkingDog,

You’re welcome!

Thank you. I am familiar with those lenses. Sitting or lying, you’re still spending quite a bit of time in the product and using it like a piece of furniture as well, so it’s important that you use durable materials, which with the latex you were considering before, you certainly were. The demands you’re placing upon the product are higher than “normal” use (about 2x more than normal), so this is something for you of course to take into account as you manage your expectations.

I’m not sure if you meant that your particular soft layer was always Talalay, or if you’re saying that SleepEZ only offers soft latex in Talalay (which isn’t the case – you may choose Dunlop in “soft” when you configure one of their mattresses). Regardless, thanks for that information.

Deeper in the mattress there is less noticeable difference, but everyone’s sensitivities are different. If you like the feel of Dunlop, it’s probably best to stick with that.

Your previous Fd, Md, Md was too firm on the surface for you, so the next logical was Fd, Mt, Md to see if that softened up the product enough for you without letting your hips sink in too much. If that wasn’t enough, using a topper that provided a bit more “surface support” in the Sd was a thought as that wouldn’t let your hips sink in as much as the Aerus topper would, but would still provide some contouring for your shoulders. This is all “theory at a distance”, as I’ve stated before, and nothing can replace your own opinions as you go through your own personal testing.

It would be more supportive than the Aerus, but I wouldn’t know if you would like it or how it would work with any system you test. Your results would be the only indicator of that.

At SleepEZ you can get a soft finished Dunlop topper in 3", and replacement foam layers in 2" soft in Dunlop. It depends upon how you are configuring everything (completed mattress or topper as additional piece).

I’m sure they wouldn’t mind selling you something again, but they may not offer you an exchange program. Most manufacturers only allow people to take advantage of such programs once (understandably so) because of the costs involved. You can also consider the different vendors in the component post here.

I can’t feel what you feel so I wouldn’t be able to answer such a question.

If you’re considering this course of action your next step should be a detailed phone conversation with FloBeds, at which time you should have all of your notes available so that they may provide their best guidance of what they think might work for you.

Those were two that immediately came to mind. I don’t keep track (nor would it be possible to do so) of the various changing options that members here of the site offer. Obasan also offers a system with three zones. While it’s a bit of a departure, Reverie offers their DreamCell product that offers quite a bit of customization in their support layer (the also have their OSO sleep product with preconfigured DreamCells fixed in the shoulder region).

Again, that would be a question for your conversation with FloBeds. Unless you have a great deal of knowledge in mattress construction, foam fabrication and the physics of how these things work together (which would be an incredibly small percentage of the general population), I’d avoid getting too deep and trying to make complex comfort predictions based only upon specifications, which will eventually result in frustration. Instead, use the guidance of knowledgeable manufacturers and let them relate how their products might assist in what you are trying to achieve. It will give you the best chance at success.

I’m sorry it didn’t work out for you, but at least you chose a product that allows you to return it.

It sounds as if it offered enough support for decent alignment, but you didn’t necessarily enjoy the surface comfort.

There is of course no consensus of what “plush” or “firm” feels like, so your own opinion is what really matters.

The ability of someone in a showroom to tell you of your alignment, unless there was something drastically askew, would be quite difficult. This would require noting landmarks and a knowledge of anatomy and biomechanics, and even if you had “perfect” alignment, your own personal alignment is rarely “perfect”. Proper support for a “neutral” alignment is the first thing I would prioritize in selecting a mattress, but your own personal testing on the product would be the most accurate indicator.

Phoenix