What I learned at the Healthy Back store and Spindle vs. Brooklyn Bedding questions

[malusrex]

Pertinent details first:
I am 5’11", 200#s
My wife is 5’3" 120#s, and has lower back pain we believe is caused or exacerbated by our current bed.
For our personal value, our #1 priority is comfort and pain relief. Price is #2; we have the ability to pay what we need to in order to get a good night’s sleep, but I would definitely lose sleep if I thought we could have gotten just as good sleep on a mattress that cost $500 less. Quality and durability is #3. We expect to keep this mattress 10-15 years max, so I will not pay a premium for one just because it will last 20+. At the same time we are trying to stay away from mattresses with thicker quilting or pillowtops that will compress after a few years and reduce the comfort of the mattress. Finally, my wife sometimes gets skin irritation from synthetic fibers, so we would prefer that whatever we buy has a 100% natural fiber cover.

We currently have an aged and poor condition waterbed. It was a baffled bed that initially felt very good but after just a couple years it has become absolutely terrible to sleep on.

After a few confusing trips to standard mattress retailers followed by research here and other resources online, we decided we needed to try latex. We had initially thought we would like memory foam, but on trying them we both realized right away that we did not like the sinking feeling. Since the Healthy Back store is the only close retailer that carries latex, we went there today.

First off, we both fell in love with the feel of latex right away, and are confident that it’s what we want. Second, and more surprising, we both liked the firmest latex mattress they offered, the Bliss Peace. This was a big surprise since at the traditional mattress stores we had liked the medium-soft innersprings best.

Overall, we were torn between the firmest (Bliss Peace) and second firmest (Bliss Serenity) they offered. I leaned slightly toward the Serenity, while my wife leaned toward the Peace, and both of us said it was up to the other which was better for us. Since the Serenity was $400 more, we decided we liked the Peace. If they were the same price, I think we would be equally happy with either, although since I’ve read that Latex softens over time, the Peace might still be the better choice.

The salespeople at Healthy Back were very friendly and helpful, but not terribly knowledgeable, and could not provide me the ILD ratings for the mattresses. Here is what was on the flyers:

Peace (Firmest, our top pick based on price)
1" Talalay SS Latex
6" Dunlop S Latex
1" Stabilization Base

Serenity (Second Firmest):
1" Talalay SS Latex
6" Talalay S Latex
1" Stabilization Base

After looking around on this site, I was able to find ILD ratings for the softer range of the Bliss line, and from that I can deduce that the Serenity is most likely 1" of 40 ILD on the bottom, 6" of 36 ILD, and 1" of 28 ILD or softer for the top. I believe the Serenity is roughly equivalent to the pure LatexBLISS (who manufactures Healthy Back’s latex mattresses) Pamper, but I don’t see an equivalent to the Peace on their site since none list Dunlop latex in their construction. Since all of the Bliss line appear to use the same ILD (36) for the core, I am wondering if the Peace does as well, but simply seems firmer since it is Dunlop latex rather than Talalay? I am sure the top layer is firmer as well.

So now that we are confident that we both like latex, I have been redoubling my online searching to find something that will approximate either of those mattresses at a lower price. The Peace was $2200 this weekend only, $2400 normally; this seems like a lot to pay for 7-8 inches of blended latex. After reviewing all of the members here who offer latex, I am looking primarily at Brooklyn Bedding or the Spindle Abscond.

The Spindle is the most intriguing. At $1000 for a full 9" latex mattress it is by far the best price I have seen. It does not appear to be very customizable though, with only three firmness options. I sent them an email earlier today to ask about the specs and options. I also noticed that although they don’t list the ILD for their mattresses , when you look at the latex pads they sell they do. However they only list a range of ILD for each option (eg. Firm: 34-42 ILD). Whats up with that?

Brooklyn Bedding was the main reason I started to look at Latex in the first place. However their full-latex mattress is almost twice as much as Spindle’s, and not considerably cheaper than Healthy Back’s. With their current $150 off promotion I might consider it if I was confident I could get something that felt similar to the Peace or Serenity at Healthy back, but I still think the return policy at Healthy back is probably worth the extra $350.

The Aloe Alexis, on the other hand, is almost $700 less than the Peace, and contains almost as much latex. Plus I am thinking that I might be able to talk to them and customize a mattress that is just in between the firmness of the Peace and Serenity from Healthy Back, which would likely be the perfect mattress for my wife and I. I’ve read Pheonix’s comments on the HD core, and I think that with my size I can still expect 10 or so years of reasonably consistent support despite the lower quality base of this mattress. Does this sound like a reasonable expectation?

Then there’s the Bamboo Bliss, which is another $400 less (but still $150 more than a Full Latex from Spindle). It has the least latex, but I think a Firm from that line would be similar in comfort to the ($1000 more) Peace at Healthy Back. I am definitely willing to skimp on the quality for a thousand dollar savings if the comfort is close.

Bottom line, I have two major questions. First, is there a significant reason that Spindle’s all latex mattresses are so much less expensive than their competition? I hope to hear back from them soon to find out if they can offer something similar in comfort to the Healthy Back mattresses. But otherwise is there anything I should be concerned about in such an inexpensive latex mattress?

Second, given what I said about my personal value, does going with a Latex hybrid from Brooklyn make sense? If I cannot find something that satisfies me from Spindle, will I see a significant decrease in support with a HD foam core from BB compared to a similarly firm all-latex mattress? And is it reasonable to expect consistent support for 10 years from such a core for someone who is 200#s?

Thanks for all of the information this site provides. If it weren’t for you guys, I probably would have already spent well over a grand on a mattress that wasn’t right for either of us. Looking forward to your responses.

[phoenix]

Hi malus.rex,

The salespeople at Healthy Back were very friendly and helpful, but not terribly knowledgeable, and could not provide me the ILD ratings for the mattresses. Here is what was on the flyers:

I would keep in mind that there is really no need for a local retailer or manufacturer to release “comfort specs” such as ILD to their customers because with careful and objective testing your body will tell you what you need to know about the suitability of a mattress in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). Comfort specs have little to nothing to do with the quality of the materials and “quality specs” are what a “transparent” manufacturer or retailer should be able to provide you. They are well aware that customers that are looking for ILD or other “comfort” information are most likely trying to “duplicate” their mattresses (which are often unique to them) elsewhere … and will often be unsuccessful because they only use ILD and really don’t have enough knowledge or experience to take the other specs of mattress materials or components into account. To match one mattress to another you would need to use the same type and thickness of every layer or component and use a very similar cover (see post #9 here about trying to match one mattress to another).

Having said that … there are some manufacturers that do provide “comfort specs” or ILD information and if there is a local PLB dealer near you (they have a retail store finder here) you can see the specs of their mattresses here which may provide a useful reference point.

After looking around on this site, I was able to find ILD ratings for the softer range of the Bliss line, and from that I can deduce that the Serenity is most likely 1" of 40 ILD on the bottom, 6" of 36 ILD, and 1" of 28 ILD or softer for the top.

I would keep in mind that the Healthy Back mattresses may have different specs from the Pure Latex Bliss. They most closely approximate either version 1 or version 2 of the Bliss line (which you can see here) but while the layer thicknesses may be the same … the ILD’s may be different.

Since all of the Bliss line appear to use the same ILD (36) for the core, I am wondering if the Peace does as well, but simply seems firmer since it is Dunlop latex rather than Talalay? I am sure the top layer is firmer as well.

The PLB Pamper uses 40 ILD for the core and the others use 36 ILD. The Peace is an old model that used synthetic Dunlop and I’ve never seen any ILD information about it. The top layer of the old Peace was firmer (28 ILD) than the old Pamper (19 ILD) but Healthy Back uses Celsion in their comfort layers (now called Talalay GL fast response) which comes in a different range of ILD’s than the blended Talalay that was used in the old PLB line.

The Spindle is the most intriguing. At $1000 for a full 9" latex mattress it is by far the best price I have seen. It does not appear to be very customizable though, with only three firmness options. I sent them an email earlier today to ask about the specs and options. I also noticed that although they don’t list the ILD for their mattresses , when you look at the latex pads they sell they do. However they only list a range of ILD for each option (eg. Firm: 34-42 ILD). Whats up with that?

Latex doesn’t come in specific ILD’s and is always in a range (see post #6 here). Spindle gives you a choice between mostly synthetic Dunlop (like the base layer in the Peace) which is much less costly and 100% natural Dunlop. Both use a continuous pour method which produces a more consistent ILD range than molded Dunlop but in their case their latex has 7 zones so there would be different ILD’s in each zone (Note: Spindle is now only using 100% natural continuous pour Dunlop in their mattresses). I would also keep in mind that Mountaintop foam that makes their latex also measures ILD a little differently than Latex International so they may not be exact matches although Neal has a good idea of which ILD’s would likely be a reasonable match.

Brooklyn Bedding was the main reason I started to look at Latex in the first place. However their full-latex mattress is almost twice as much as Spindle’s, and not considerably cheaper than Healthy Back’s. With their current $150 off promotion I might consider it if I was confident I could get something that felt similar to the Peace or Serenity at Healthy back, but I still think the return policy at Healthy back is probably worth the extra $350.

I would keep in mind that they use a more costly version of latex than the mostly synthetic latex used in the Spindle lower budget line (Note: Spindle is now only using 100% natural continuous pour Dunlop in their mattresses). I would also consider that both of them are very different designs from either the Healthy Back Peace or Serenity so you would be using approximations and “best judgement” about which of the versions offered by either Spindle or Brooklyn Bedding would be most likely to be a rough equivalent of either of the Healthy Back mattresses.

The Aloe Alexis, on the other hand, is almost $700 less than the Peace, and contains almost as much latex. Plus I am thinking that I might be able to talk to them and customize a mattress that is just in between the firmness of the Peace and Serenity from Healthy Back, which would likely be the perfect mattress for my wife and I. I’ve read Pheonix’s comments on the HD core, and I think that with my size I can still expect 10 or so years of reasonably consistent support despite the lower quality base of this mattress. Does this sound like a reasonable expectation?

I would think so yes and the 2.17 lb polyfoam base layer isn’t likely to be a significant factor in the longevity or durability of the mattress with 6" of latex over it (a mattress will usually soften and break down from the top down).

Then there’s the Bamboo Bliss, which is another $400 less (but still $150 more than a Full Latex from Spindle). It has the least latex, but I think a Firm from that line would be similar in comfort to the ($1000 more) Peace at Healthy Back. I am definitely willing to skimp on the quality for a thousand dollar savings if the comfort is close.

Again … with a 3" latex comfort layer … it would be difficult to “translate” the ILD that would feel most equivalent to the Peace for your body type or sleeping style especially if there is no ILD information available to you for the Dunlop core so you may need to make a “best guess” based on subjective perceptions and then leave any fine tuning up to your personal experience and a possible layer exchange. Once again … layer thickness will make as much difference as layer ILD and with a 1" comfort layer a big part of what you feel will be the synthetic Dunlop core of the Peace.

Bottom line, I have two major questions. First, is there a significant reason that Spindle’s all latex mattresses are so much less expensive than their competition? I hope to hear back from them soon to find out if they can offer something similar in comfort to the Healthy Back mattresses. But otherwise is there anything I should be concerned about in such an inexpensive latex mattress?

They are certainly great value but their lower cost line is mostly synthetic Dunlop which is a much lower cost material than either blended Talalay or 100% natural Dunlop (including their own 100% natural Dunlop). There may also be differences in the covers they use which can also be a significant part of the cost of a mattress. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here.

Second, given what I said about my personal value, does going with a Latex hybrid from Brooklyn make sense? If I cannot find something that satisfies me from Spindle, will I see a significant decrease in support with a HD foam core from BB compared to a similarly firm all-latex mattress? And is it reasonable to expect consistent support for 10 years from such a core for someone who is 200#s?

There is really no way to know this with any certainty outside of your own personal experience because it would depend on how all the layers of each mattress interacted with each other and the cover and with you in terms of PPP but you can see a more generic comparison between an all latex mattress and a latex/polyfoam hybrid in post #2 here.

It would certainly be reasonable to expect 10 years of “support” for this mattress for most people of your weight yes but it would also depend on the suitability of your comfort choice and where in your range of comfort and support it was and how much “room” you had for foam softening (see post #2 here).

You are certainly looking at some very good options to make a final choice.

Phoenix

[malusrex]

As always, great info Pheonix. Much appreciated.

My wife and I read through your post on mattress softening over time, and we both think that the two mattresses we liked at Healthy Back represented the opposite ends of our comfort spectrum. That gives us a pretty wide range to look at, rather than having to try to duplicate exactly the firmness of the Peace. The difference in softness between the two was pretty significant compared to the difference between the softer mattresses, so I think that if we could find something in between the two, it would be ideal both right out of the box as well as after breaking in.

Since the Healthy Back mattress was a blended Dunlop latex (except for the last inch), it sounds like it would only be a slight quality improvement over the synthetic Dunlop from Spindle. Based on your comments I think the BB mattresses are the highest quality of the manufacturers I’m looking at, with the Aloe Alexis seeming like a great deal.

I cannot find a retailer nearby where I can try a hybrid Latex over Foam mattress, I am wondering if anyone here who has tried both can share their thoughts on the difference in feel of a hybrid vs. all-latex. I do have an Ikea nearby, but from what I’ve read here the quality of their hybrid mattresses is probably too low to compare to Brooklyn.

It sounds like my next step is to talk to Spindle and BB and get their opinions on what they offer that would be best for us. I sent an email to Spindle yesterday but I expect they probably won’t respond on Sunday, so hopefully I will hear from them tomorrow. BB is up on chat today so that is my next stop.

[TandL]

I have had a great experience with BB so far —> My Thread

[phoenix]

Hi malus.rex,

Since the Healthy Back mattress was a blended Dunlop latex (except for the last inch), it sounds like it would only be a slight quality improvement over the synthetic Dunlop from Spindle. Based on your comments I think the BB mattresses are the highest quality of the manufacturers I’m looking at, with the Aloe Alexis seeming like a great deal.

The core would be a very similar type of latex to the Spindle mattress but as you mentioned the top layer of Talalay GL would be different.

I cannot find a retailer nearby where I can try a hybrid Latex over Foam mattress,

I would keep in mind that there are many versions of a latex hybrid mattress and how they feel would depend on the type of latex, the thickness of the latex or polyfoam layers, the ILD of the latex and the polyfoam, the cover that was used, and on your body type and sleeping style (different people will sink in more or less and feel different layers of a mattress) so your experience may be different from someone else but you could at least get a very general sense and reference point for the difference between a latex support core and a polyfoam support core if there were some hybrids available locally.

Most of the initial “feel” of a mattress comes from the top 5" or 6" or so but this will vary by person.

If you let me know your city or zip I would be happy to link you to the nearest forum list that may have some latex hybrid options available (assuming you haven’t already found it).

Phoenix

[william1]

@"malus.rex" post=30707

The Spindle is the most intriguing. At $1000 for a full 9" latex mattress it is by far the best price I have seen. It does not appear to be very customizable though, with only three firmness options. I sent them an email earlier today to ask about the specs and options. I also noticed that although they don’t list the ILD for their mattresses , when you look at the latex pads they sell they do. However they only list a range of ILD for each option (eg. Firm: 34-42 ILD). Whats up with that?

Having just ordered a 10" Abscond from Neal at Spindle, I can tell you that he is very knowledgeable and accommodating, and the mattresses are customizable beyond the three listed options. He is even willing to recommend different combinations of the synthetic and natural latex in the layers. For my needs, we settled on natural latex in the bottom two layers (med/firm), since it is more dense and durable, and synthetic for the top layer (med) since it is slightly softer. Spindle also allows for a comfort adjustment up to a year after purchase. Give Neal a call, he’s a good guy.