What I learned at the Healthy Back store and Spindle vs. Brooklyn Bedding questions

[phoenix]

Hi malus.rex,

The salespeople at Healthy Back were very friendly and helpful, but not terribly knowledgeable, and could not provide me the ILD ratings for the mattresses. Here is what was on the flyers:

I would keep in mind that there is really no need for a local retailer or manufacturer to release “comfort specs” such as ILD to their customers because with careful and objective testing your body will tell you what you need to know about the suitability of a mattress in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). Comfort specs have little to nothing to do with the quality of the materials and “quality specs” are what a “transparent” manufacturer or retailer should be able to provide you. They are well aware that customers that are looking for ILD or other “comfort” information are most likely trying to “duplicate” their mattresses (which are often unique to them) elsewhere … and will often be unsuccessful because they only use ILD and really don’t have enough knowledge or experience to take the other specs of mattress materials or components into account. To match one mattress to another you would need to use the same type and thickness of every layer or component and use a very similar cover (see post #9 here about trying to match one mattress to another).

Having said that … there are some manufacturers that do provide “comfort specs” or ILD information and if there is a local PLB dealer near you (they have a retail store finder here) you can see the specs of their mattresses here which may provide a useful reference point.

After looking around on this site, I was able to find ILD ratings for the softer range of the Bliss line, and from that I can deduce that the Serenity is most likely 1" of 40 ILD on the bottom, 6" of 36 ILD, and 1" of 28 ILD or softer for the top.

I would keep in mind that the Healthy Back mattresses may have different specs from the Pure Latex Bliss. They most closely approximate either version 1 or version 2 of the Bliss line (which you can see here) but while the layer thicknesses may be the same … the ILD’s may be different.

Since all of the Bliss line appear to use the same ILD (36) for the core, I am wondering if the Peace does as well, but simply seems firmer since it is Dunlop latex rather than Talalay? I am sure the top layer is firmer as well.

The PLB Pamper uses 40 ILD for the core and the others use 36 ILD. The Peace is an old model that used synthetic Dunlop and I’ve never seen any ILD information about it. The top layer of the old Peace was firmer (28 ILD) than the old Pamper (19 ILD) but Healthy Back uses Celsion in their comfort layers (now called Talalay GL fast response) which comes in a different range of ILD’s than the blended Talalay that was used in the old PLB line.

The Spindle is the most intriguing. At $1000 for a full 9" latex mattress it is by far the best price I have seen. It does not appear to be very customizable though, with only three firmness options. I sent them an email earlier today to ask about the specs and options. I also noticed that although they don’t list the ILD for their mattresses , when you look at the latex pads they sell they do. However they only list a range of ILD for each option (eg. Firm: 34-42 ILD). Whats up with that?

Latex doesn’t come in specific ILD’s and is always in a range (see post #6 here). Spindle gives you a choice between mostly synthetic Dunlop (like the base layer in the Peace) which is much less costly and 100% natural Dunlop. Both use a continuous pour method which produces a more consistent ILD range than molded Dunlop but in their case their latex has 7 zones so there would be different ILD’s in each zone (Note: Spindle is now only using 100% natural continuous pour Dunlop in their mattresses). I would also keep in mind that Mountaintop foam that makes their latex also measures ILD a little differently than Latex International so they may not be exact matches although Neal has a good idea of which ILD’s would likely be a reasonable match.

Brooklyn Bedding was the main reason I started to look at Latex in the first place. However their full-latex mattress is almost twice as much as Spindle’s, and not considerably cheaper than Healthy Back’s. With their current $150 off promotion I might consider it if I was confident I could get something that felt similar to the Peace or Serenity at Healthy back, but I still think the return policy at Healthy back is probably worth the extra $350.

I would keep in mind that they use a more costly version of latex than the mostly synthetic latex used in the Spindle lower budget line (Note: Spindle is now only using 100% natural continuous pour Dunlop in their mattresses). I would also consider that both of them are very different designs from either the Healthy Back Peace or Serenity so you would be using approximations and “best judgement” about which of the versions offered by either Spindle or Brooklyn Bedding would be most likely to be a rough equivalent of either of the Healthy Back mattresses.

The Aloe Alexis, on the other hand, is almost $700 less than the Peace, and contains almost as much latex. Plus I am thinking that I might be able to talk to them and customize a mattress that is just in between the firmness of the Peace and Serenity from Healthy Back, which would likely be the perfect mattress for my wife and I. I’ve read Pheonix’s comments on the HD core, and I think that with my size I can still expect 10 or so years of reasonably consistent support despite the lower quality base of this mattress. Does this sound like a reasonable expectation?

I would think so yes and the 2.17 lb polyfoam base layer isn’t likely to be a significant factor in the longevity or durability of the mattress with 6" of latex over it (a mattress will usually soften and break down from the top down).

Then there’s the Bamboo Bliss, which is another $400 less (but still $150 more than a Full Latex from Spindle). It has the least latex, but I think a Firm from that line would be similar in comfort to the ($1000 more) Peace at Healthy Back. I am definitely willing to skimp on the quality for a thousand dollar savings if the comfort is close.

Again … with a 3" latex comfort layer … it would be difficult to “translate” the ILD that would feel most equivalent to the Peace for your body type or sleeping style especially if there is no ILD information available to you for the Dunlop core so you may need to make a “best guess” based on subjective perceptions and then leave any fine tuning up to your personal experience and a possible layer exchange. Once again … layer thickness will make as much difference as layer ILD and with a 1" comfort layer a big part of what you feel will be the synthetic Dunlop core of the Peace.

Bottom line, I have two major questions. First, is there a significant reason that Spindle’s all latex mattresses are so much less expensive than their competition? I hope to hear back from them soon to find out if they can offer something similar in comfort to the Healthy Back mattresses. But otherwise is there anything I should be concerned about in such an inexpensive latex mattress?

They are certainly great value but their lower cost line is mostly synthetic Dunlop which is a much lower cost material than either blended Talalay or 100% natural Dunlop (including their own 100% natural Dunlop). There may also be differences in the covers they use which can also be a significant part of the cost of a mattress. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here.

Second, given what I said about my personal value, does going with a Latex hybrid from Brooklyn make sense? If I cannot find something that satisfies me from Spindle, will I see a significant decrease in support with a HD foam core from BB compared to a similarly firm all-latex mattress? And is it reasonable to expect consistent support for 10 years from such a core for someone who is 200#s?

There is really no way to know this with any certainty outside of your own personal experience because it would depend on how all the layers of each mattress interacted with each other and the cover and with you in terms of PPP but you can see a more generic comparison between an all latex mattress and a latex/polyfoam hybrid in post #2 here.

It would certainly be reasonable to expect 10 years of “support” for this mattress for most people of your weight yes but it would also depend on the suitability of your comfort choice and where in your range of comfort and support it was and how much “room” you had for foam softening (see post #2 here).

You are certainly looking at some very good options to make a final choice.

Phoenix