We haven’t paid for it yet but did a sales order and took home the dog bed they threw in. I’ll go down and ask them since they don’t disclose it in any of their videos or on the sales floor.
I also purchased a bed from Beds by Design yesterday. (The Reverie is getting returned, more on that later.) I showed Neil this thread and he called the owner, Chad. The two of us talked for over 20 minutes about his products. He liked how interested I was, and he remembered a phone call with Phoenix 2-3 years ago. (I made sure he understood that I came to his store because of this site.)
He was transparent with me about what products he uses, where he gets them, and why he chooses them. He didn’t have all the details at his fingertips, but was willing to email them to me. I explained that hiding behind a term like “Duron” is hindering him, because it obscures the actual material for consumers who want to know (like me) and allows Comfort King to attack their business by calling Duron “mystery foam” and conflating it with cheap poly. He understood that and promised to answer my questions by email.
So, Phoenix, help me write my email questions. What info would satisfy you of the quality of their materials?
Kind regards,
David
Hi dbergan,
You could just send him a copy of this article which describes the information you would need to know to make an informed choice.
Phoenix
Yea I’ve never heard Chad or any of their reps say specific details on their products. I was leaning towards CK because of it and their detailed videos but the wife helped convince me I was making a good decision. We haven’t paid for it yet because I wanted to buy the King headboard and I’m waiting on a refund for a $1k vet bill so I have room on my citi card. Our dog loves the dog bed lol and they threw in a lot of extras.
I dread going down there to ask but at the same time don’t want to pay $3k for an inferior product…
Hi Quickstrike,
You have every right to know about the specifics of the materials in any mattress you purchase so that you can confirm the quality and durability of the materials and make more meaningful comparisons with other mattresses … especially in the budget range you are looking at.
While some information can legitimately be considered to be proprietary to a manufacturer … there are many manufacturers that claim that the information you would need to make an informed choice is also somehow “proprietary” but I certainly wouldn’t agree. You can read a little more about “so called” proprietary materials and using this as a justification for not disclosing what I would consider to be essential information here and here and here.
NOTE ADDED: I have talked with Chad and have confirmed that none of the materials in any of the Beds by Design mattresses are either synthetic or natural latex and they are versions of polyfoam. Some of the materials are high performance polyfoams that are certainly a good quality material and have many of the properties of latex but are less costly than “real” latex (synthetic or natural).
Phoenix
OK. CK claims they use 1.8 lb. density in all their foams and real latex. Is there a way to tell or this on the law tag you describe?
In a purchase, the buyer is in control, my friend. I run a business and am reminded of that fact all the time when I try to sell my products. They should be the ones dreading. If you aren’t satisfied, cancel the order or return the mattress. (BBD has a 30-day full refund period.)
Personally, I think their materials are quality, and the end-result was definitively the most comfortable mattress my wife and I tried (out of dozens). The fact that we both thought the same mattress was the most comfortable, was a feat in and of itself!
I just sent an email to Chad to get specs on materials he uses. He was pretty candid with me on the phone yesterday, I just couldn’t write it all down, and he wasn’t at a place where he could pull up specifics. I expect that he will be able to explain how he knows his products are durable, and why he chose them. I’ll report when I hear back.
Kind regards,
David
Hi Quickstrike,
The law tag only shows the type of material listed as a percentage of the total weight of the mattress but it doesn’t contain any information about the quality of the materials in the mattress or the blend of the latex, the thickness of the layers, or the order of the layers (which is also important because layers that are closer to the top of the mattress are more subject to premature softening and breakdown than layers that are deeper in the mattress).
For example if it shows polyurethane foam it could be 1.2 lb density which is “cheap junk” or it could be something in the range of 2 - 3 lb density which would be a much higher quality and more durable material.
The law tag would show whether there was any latex in the mattress and the percentage of the total weight of the mattress that was latex but latex is heavier than polyurethane foam so the weight percentage on the law tag would show as being higher than the percentage of the latex in the mattress based on thickness but it wouldn’t show the type or blend of the latex.
Phoenix
We haven’t got the bed and only did a sales order with no payment method involved so it should be easy to back out if need be.
The problem I have with CK is only using 1" or 2" latex with memory foam in top. I don"t like the sinking in feeling and neither does my wife. I’m 285 lbs. and my wife is about 180…
Hi Quickstrike,
While I can’t speak to how any mattress will “feel” for someone else because this is too subjective and relative to different body types, sleeping positions, and individual preferences, sensitivities, and circumstances … outside of PPP the most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability and assuming that the materials in a mattress you are considering are durable enough for your body type and meet the guidelines here … the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses (see this article) are more of a preference and a budget choice than a “better/worse” choice.
There is also some information in post #3 here and the posts it links to that should be helpful for those that are in higher weight ranges. Higher weight ranges will generally need or prefer firmer mattresses (firmer materials will feel softer because you will sink into them more) and materials and components that are higher quality and more durable than the minimums in the guidelines because the materials and components in a mattress will soften and break down faster for those in higher weight ranges than they will for someone that is in a lower weight range that doesn’t compress the mattress as much.
If you you don’t like the “feel” of memory foam (and there are many that don’t) then I would choose a mattress that either didn’t include it or where the type or amount of memory foam wasn’t enough to cause the “sinking in” feeling that you don’t like.
Phoenix
Ok. I know both local companies get their products from Leggett&Platt if thag makes any difference.
Hi Quickstrike,
It really wouldn’t make any difference. While Legget & Platt is by far the largest innerspring manufacturer in the industry … like the other innerspring manufacturers they make dozens of different types of innersprings and they wouldn’t be supplying the foam materials in the mattress and the comfort layers on top of the springs are generally the weakest link in a mattress … not the springs.
There is more about the pros and cons of different types of innersprings in this article and in post #10 here.
Phoenix
The somnigel as well which BBD isn’t fond of and says you need at least 4" of it. CK loves the stuff and uses 2.4" on a couple of their beds. The CEO of BBD used to work for CK which is probably where the animosity comes from…
Hi Quickstrike,
All the layers and components of a mattress affect the feel and performance of all the other layers above and below it and the mattress “as a whole” so the “ideal” thickness of any somnigel layer(s) would depend on all the other materials and components in the mattress and the design goals of the mattress. It doesn’t make much sense to arbitrarily decide how thick any individual material or component “needs” to be without taking into account all the other materials and components and the complete design of the mattress.
The Somnigel (which is also supplied by Leggett & Platt) is a type of buckling column gel that comes in layers that are either 2.25" or 1.125" thick.
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Somnigel is just one of several versions of buckling column gel that are available in the market with similar properties. The others are Intelligel and Orthogel/Nexgel. They are all very durable materials. There is more information about them in this article and in post #2 here and the posts it links to. A forum search on “buckling column gel” (you can just click the link) will also bring up more comments and feedback about them as well.
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In very general terms they all use some type of thin foam layer on top of the buckling column gel to even out the feel of the material and they can be used as a comfort layer on top of any other combination of materials and components that are used as transition or support layers (such as polyfoam, latex, or innersprings).
The choice between different types of materials and components in a mattress or different types of mattresses is always a preference choice (assuming that the materials are durable enough for someone’s body type) and some people may like a particular mattress that uses Somnigel while others may not.
In its simplest form … choosing the “best possible” mattress for any particular person really comes down to …
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Careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial) to make sure that a mattress is a good match for you in terms of “comfort” and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) … or that you are comfortable with the options you have available to return, exchange, or “fine tune” the mattress and any costs involved if you’re not confident that it would be a suitable choice.
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Checking to make sure that there are no lower quality materials or weak links in the mattress that would compromise the durability of the mattress (see this article and the durability guidelines it links to).
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Comparing your other finalists for “value” based on #1 and #2 and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.
Phoenix
Quickstrike,
Don’t feel like you have to cancel and settle for a Comfort King mattress just because of this thread. Yes CK was more transparent on what’s in their foam layers, but if bbd feels better, that’s still primary.
Or maybe I should say that CK uses simpler foams. IIRC, they built all their mattresses with some combination of springs, somnigel, natural talalay, and a thin cooling gel memory foam. I don’t care for the feel of somnigel nor a spring core. Also springs don’t work as well with my adjustable base.
BBD had 4 or 5 different kinds of foam they use, but they are all supposedly synthetic latex. The foams had different properties (softer, firmer) and came with different durability ratings. But they also had warranties for each foam type. Some were 15-year, others 20 and 30. The core at the bottom of my mattress (energy core, I think) had a lifetime warranty, which Chad explained that if it ever showed signs of wear, his foam manufacturer would replace it. (Their factory guaranteed it.). Nothing at CK had more than a 20-year warranty.
At BBD, you could feel and fondle the foam samples as much as you’d like. When you buy the mattress, you can unzip it and see that that’s what’s in it. That’s awfully transparent.
Like you, I would like to know more about their synthetic latex. But it would be fallacious to take a lack of information and assume that they’re using cheap poly knock offs that will degrade within months (which is what CK alleged of them). The samples certainly didn’t feel like poly to me. And CK showed colossal ignorance when they explained somnigel as “water in a gel state” (wtf!) and said that synthetic latex is “no different from polyfoam” because they are both made from chemicals in a lab.
Material transparency is nice, but comfort is still the most important factor in buying a mattress.
Kind regards,
David
Ok thank you. My wife and I really like the Ultra series Ultra comfort with the synergy core. Chad was easy to deal with and helpful as opposed to CK. I felt like they were adament that I need a bed with somnigel because of my size. I liked the Everest there but didn’t get a chance to show my wife because she was sold on the BBD mattress. I felt like we were getting a pretty good deal and they’re even willing to let us trade in the box spring for the adjustable if we decided down the line.
Hi dbergan,
While comfort and PPP is certainly the most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase … I would also be very cautious about buying any mattress where you don’t know the type and quality/durability of all the materials and components inside it because how long you sleep well is also a very important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase and there is little value in buying a mattress that softens or breaks down prematurely no matter how it may feel in a showroom or when it is new.
I don’t believe that you are correct here (I’m pretty sure that you’re not) and I would be very cautious about providing information to someone else that you haven’t confirmed is correct. Have you confirmed that your mattress is all latex? Have you looked at the law tag to see which type of materials are listed there?
NOTE ADDED: I have talked with Chad and have confirmed that none of the materials in any of the Beds by Design mattresses are either synthetic or natural latex and they are versions of polyfoam. Some of the materials are high performance polyfoams that are certainly a good quality material and have many of the properties of latex but are less costly than “real” latex (synthetic or natural).
I would keep in mind that the length of a mattress warranty has very little to do with the durability or useful life of a mattress or more importantly how long it may be before you need to replace it. Warranties only cover defects in a mattress and not the gradual (or rapid in the case of lower quality materials) loss of comfort and support that is the main reason people will need to replace their mattress. There is more about mattress warranties in post #174 here.
If you can’t find out the information you need to know about the type, quality, and durability of the materials in a mattress then it’s not transparent at all since a consumer would have no idea what they are “feeling and fondling”.
I would want to know that it was synthetic latex in the first place. Not knowing what is in a mattress doesn’t necessarily mean that they are using “cheap poly knockoffs” it only means that they could be and that you won’t be in a position to make an informed choice or make meaningful comparisons with other mattress. Suggesting that a “lack of necessary information” or that not being able to find out the information you need to know to make an informed choice about the quality and durability of a mattress is somehow OK is just plain bad advice.
Phoenix
The owner/founder told me on the phone that their foams (other than OmniFlow and the polyfoams that they are upfront about) are 100% synthetic Dunlop latex. He rattled off the details to me of how the process works at the manufacturer’s factory, and told me the name and location of the factory (which I didn’t get written down). He explained how he used to use all natural latex and then switched because synthetic blends had greater durability. They showed me a law tag (even though the tag was pretty generic).
Are you saying he’s outright lying? Or how else do you suggest I confirm that it is indeed synthetic latex?
To me it’s understandable that the employees at BBD don’t have the chemical formula of their foams memorized. They don’t make them, they just use them. Only one or two guys per decade ask them about it. Consider: I don’t know all the ingredients in bread, but I still can use it to make a good sandwich. Also, Comfort King doesn’t know anything about the chemical nature of somnigel (water in gel form!), yet they still can make their mattresses with it.
It’s healthy to be skeptical, but at some point you have to trust something. If you think the CEO is willing to lie to customers about the basic nature of his company’s products, why would you trust the law tag? Should I take my mattress to a chemical deconstruction lab and pay $20,000 to have it analyzed? What exactly are the signs that make you so suspicious of BBD?
Kind regards,
David