The law tag only shows the type of material listed as a percentage of the total weight of the mattress but it doesn’t contain any information about the quality of the materials in the mattress or the blend of the latex, the thickness of the layers, or the order of the layers (which is also important because layers that are closer to the top of the mattress are more subject to premature softening and breakdown than layers that are deeper in the mattress).
For example if it shows polyurethane foam it could be 1.2 lb density which is “cheap junk” or it could be something in the range of 2 - 3 lb density which would be a much higher quality and more durable material.
The law tag would show whether there was any latex in the mattress and the percentage of the total weight of the mattress that was latex but latex is heavier than polyurethane foam so the weight percentage on the law tag would show as being higher than the percentage of the latex in the mattress based on thickness but it wouldn’t show the type or blend of the latex.
The problem I have with CK is only using 1" or 2" latex with memory foam in top. I don"t like the sinking in feeling and neither does my wife. I’m 285 lbs. and my wife is about 180…
While I can’t speak to how any mattress will “feel” for someone else because this is too subjective and relative to different body types, sleeping positions, and individual preferences, sensitivities, and circumstances … outside of PPP the most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability and assuming that the materials in a mattress you are considering are durable enough for your body type and meet the guidelines here … the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses (see this article) are more of a preference and a budget choice than a “better/worse” choice.
There is also some information in post #3 here and the posts it links to that should be helpful for those that are in higher weight ranges. Higher weight ranges will generally need or prefer firmer mattresses (firmer materials will feel softer because you will sink into them more) and materials and components that are higher quality and more durable than the minimums in the guidelines because the materials and components in a mattress will soften and break down faster for those in higher weight ranges than they will for someone that is in a lower weight range that doesn’t compress the mattress as much.
If you you don’t like the “feel” of memory foam (and there are many that don’t) then I would choose a mattress that either didn’t include it or where the type or amount of memory foam wasn’t enough to cause the “sinking in” feeling that you don’t like.
It really wouldn’t make any difference. While Legget & Platt is by far the largest innerspring manufacturer in the industry … like the other innerspring manufacturers they make dozens of different types of innersprings and they wouldn’t be supplying the foam materials in the mattress and the comfort layers on top of the springs are generally the weakest link in a mattress … not the springs.
There is more about the pros and cons of different types of innersprings in this article and in post #10 here.
The somnigel as well which BBD isn’t fond of and says you need at least 4" of it. CK loves the stuff and uses 2.4" on a couple of their beds. The CEO of BBD used to work for CK which is probably where the animosity comes from…
All the layers and components of a mattress affect the feel and performance of all the other layers above and below it and the mattress “as a whole” so the “ideal” thickness of any somnigel layer(s) would depend on all the other materials and components in the mattress and the design goals of the mattress. It doesn’t make much sense to arbitrarily decide how thick any individual material or component “needs” to be without taking into account all the other materials and components and the complete design of the mattress.
The Somnigel (which is also supplied by Leggett & Platt) is a type of buckling column gel that comes in layers that are either 2.25" or 1.125" thick. ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint 1: Error 404: Not Found - L&P Bedding Group
Somnigel is just one of several versions of buckling column gel that are available in the market with similar properties. The others are Intelligel and Orthogel/Nexgel. They are all very durable materials. There is more information about them in this article and in post #2 here and the posts it links to. A forum search on “buckling column gel” (you can just click the link) will also bring up more comments and feedback about them as well. ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint 1: The World's First Comfort Tech Company Backed by Science | Purple Footprint 2: nexgel.com/
In very general terms they all use some type of thin foam layer on top of the buckling column gel to even out the feel of the material and they can be used as a comfort layer on top of any other combination of materials and components that are used as transition or support layers (such as polyfoam, latex, or innersprings).
The choice between different types of materials and components in a mattress or different types of mattresses is always a preference choice (assuming that the materials are durable enough for someone’s body type) and some people may like a particular mattress that uses Somnigel while others may not.
In its simplest form … choosing the “best possible” mattress for any particular person really comes down to …
Careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial) to make sure that a mattress is a good match for you in terms of “comfort” and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) … or that you are comfortable with the options you have available to return, exchange, or “fine tune” the mattress and any costs involved if you’re not confident that it would be a suitable choice.
Checking to make sure that there are no lower quality materials or weak links in the mattress that would compromise the durability of the mattress (see this article and the durability guidelines it links to).
Comparing your other finalists for “value” based on #1 and #2 and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.
Don’t feel like you have to cancel and settle for a Comfort King mattress just because of this thread. Yes CK was more transparent on what’s in their foam layers, but if bbd feels better, that’s still primary.
Or maybe I should say that CK uses simpler foams. IIRC, they built all their mattresses with some combination of springs, somnigel, natural talalay, and a thin cooling gel memory foam. I don’t care for the feel of somnigel nor a spring core. Also springs don’t work as well with my adjustable base.
BBD had 4 or 5 different kinds of foam they use, but they are all supposedly synthetic latex. The foams had different properties (softer, firmer) and came with different durability ratings. But they also had warranties for each foam type. Some were 15-year, others 20 and 30. The core at the bottom of my mattress (energy core, I think) had a lifetime warranty, which Chad explained that if it ever showed signs of wear, his foam manufacturer would replace it. (Their factory guaranteed it.). Nothing at CK had more than a 20-year warranty.
At BBD, you could feel and fondle the foam samples as much as you’d like. When you buy the mattress, you can unzip it and see that that’s what’s in it. That’s awfully transparent.
Like you, I would like to know more about their synthetic latex. But it would be fallacious to take a lack of information and assume that they’re using cheap poly knock offs that will degrade within months (which is what CK alleged of them). The samples certainly didn’t feel like poly to me. And CK showed colossal ignorance when they explained somnigel as “water in a gel state” (wtf!) and said that synthetic latex is “no different from polyfoam” because they are both made from chemicals in a lab.
Material transparency is nice, but comfort is still the most important factor in buying a mattress.
Ok thank you. My wife and I really like the Ultra series Ultra comfort with the synergy core. Chad was easy to deal with and helpful as opposed to CK. I felt like they were adament that I need a bed with somnigel because of my size. I liked the Everest there but didn’t get a chance to show my wife because she was sold on the BBD mattress. I felt like we were getting a pretty good deal and they’re even willing to let us trade in the box spring for the adjustable if we decided down the line.
While comfort and PPP is certainly the most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase … I would also be very cautious about buying any mattress where you don’t know the type and quality/durability of all the materials and components inside it because how long you sleep well is also a very important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase and there is little value in buying a mattress that softens or breaks down prematurely no matter how it may feel in a showroom or when it is new.
I don’t believe that you are correct here (I’m pretty sure that you’re not) and I would be very cautious about providing information to someone else that you haven’t confirmed is correct. Have you confirmed that your mattress is all latex? Have you looked at the law tag to see which type of materials are listed there?
NOTE ADDED: I have talked with Chad and have confirmed that none of the materials in any of the Beds by Design mattresses are either synthetic or natural latex and they are versions of polyfoam. Some of the materials are high performance polyfoams that are certainly a good quality material and have many of the properties of latex but are less costly than “real” latex (synthetic or natural).
I would keep in mind that the length of a mattress warranty has very little to do with the durability or useful life of a mattress or more importantly how long it may be before you need to replace it. Warranties only cover defects in a mattress and not the gradual (or rapid in the case of lower quality materials) loss of comfort and support that is the main reason people will need to replace their mattress. There is more about mattress warranties in post #174 here.
If you can’t find out the information you need to know about the type, quality, and durability of the materials in a mattress then it’s not transparent at all since a consumer would have no idea what they are “feeling and fondling”.
I would want to know that it was synthetic latex in the first place. Not knowing what is in a mattress doesn’t necessarily mean that they are using “cheap poly knockoffs” it only means that they could be and that you won’t be in a position to make an informed choice or make meaningful comparisons with other mattress. Suggesting that a “lack of necessary information” or that not being able to find out the information you need to know to make an informed choice about the quality and durability of a mattress is somehow OK is just plain bad advice.
The owner/founder told me on the phone that their foams (other than OmniFlow and the polyfoams that they are upfront about) are 100% synthetic Dunlop latex. He rattled off the details to me of how the process works at the manufacturer’s factory, and told me the name and location of the factory (which I didn’t get written down). He explained how he used to use all natural latex and then switched because synthetic blends had greater durability. They showed me a law tag (even though the tag was pretty generic).
Are you saying he’s outright lying? Or how else do you suggest I confirm that it is indeed synthetic latex?
To me it’s understandable that the employees at BBD don’t have the chemical formula of their foams memorized. They don’t make them, they just use them. Only one or two guys per decade ask them about it. Consider: I don’t know all the ingredients in bread, but I still can use it to make a good sandwich. Also, Comfort King doesn’t know anything about the chemical nature of somnigel (water in gel form!), yet they still can make their mattresses with it.
It’s healthy to be skeptical, but at some point you have to trust something. If you think the CEO is willing to lie to customers about the basic nature of his company’s products, why would you trust the law tag? Should I take my mattress to a chemical deconstruction lab and pay $20,000 to have it analyzed? What exactly are the signs that make you so suspicious of BBD?
If the law tag says 100% latex then it would probably be all latex (even though it wouldn’t specify the type or blend of the latex).
There is also more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here.
Based on the videos I’ve seen … it’s possible that one of the layers with the pincore holes (probably the Duron) is latex (although it could also be something else as well) … but the rest of the materials certainly didn’t look like latex to me.
NOTE ADDED: I have talked with Chad and have confirmed that none of the materials in any of the Beds by Design mattresses are either synthetic or natural latex and they are versions of polyfoam. Some of the materials are high performance polyfoams that are certainly a good quality material and have many of the properties of latex but are less costly than “real” latex (synthetic or natural).
If you ask him again and post the information on the forum it would probably be helpful to identify what he is using.
Nobody needs to know the chemical formula of a material … just the thickness, type, and density (in the case of memory foam or polyfoam) or the thickness, type and blend (in the case of latex) of all the layers in the mattress.
I also know that in the past they used to call one of the foams they used latex when it wasn’t (see post #2 here)
Providing incorrect information doesn’t mean they are lying if they believe what they are telling you is correct (even if it isn’t) … they could just be misinformed.
It’s really not all that difficult to find out all the information here for any mattress you are purchasing if you are dealing with a transparent manufacturer and to also check the law tag for your mattress (and post a picture on the forum if you wish as well). This is the “basic” information that you need to make an informed choice and to make more meaningful comparisons with other mattresses in terms of quality and durability … no more and no less.
Part 1
Somehow I missed your earlier link to the J Ennis Fabrics catalog. Looking at the most recent version of their catalog, I see that Duron is listed with a density of 2.2 lbs/ft, and the Blue Foam and Qualux (found on the same page) that look similar to other BBD products are rated at 2.4 & 2.8.
Part 2
One of your other posts about BBD mentioned that they used to get a product from Carpenter. That sounds like the factory Chad mentioned on the phone with me. On their website, they have a picture of an Avena product that looks like one of the BBD comfort layers. Carpenter says Avena is “more comfortable that latex”.
Also, Carpenter has a section labeled Engineered Foam Mattresses], where they describe working with their factory to get the kind of mattress foam that you want, which is basically what Chad had described to me for the OmniFlow product.
Part 3
Comfort King had several copies of this flyer floating around their store and it was referred to when I started talking about BBD. It’s not exactly the kind of science that you’ll find in Nature. Instead it looks like CK commissioned Leggett & Platt to do some durability tests to prove how awesome their Innersprings are. The whole concept is kinda bogus because as you frequently mention, it’s not the core that breaks down as often as the comfort layers. Anyway, we don’t know what the red and green lines are, but since it was pulled out as soon as I mentioned BBD, I’m guessing they sent Leggett a CK mattress and a BBD mattress. If they did, the most telling part of this whole document is that Leggett rated the “Foam Core” as “HR Quality”. ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: comfortking.net/uploads/Comfort_King_Firmness_Test_Foam_vs_Springs_sioux_falls_fargo.pdf
So let’s assume (at least until Chad writes me back) that BBD is using HD/HR polyfoam of 2.2-2.8 lb/ft densities. What are your recommendations on that kind of material? What kind of durability can we expect? Any clue on the general prices of these kinds of components? (like, in comparison to natural latex)
Once again, I need to repeat they had the one mattress that my wife and I both considered the most comfortable, and we’re picky. I don’t think I could convince myself to choose something less comfortable for minimal gains in value or durability. So I’m primarily thinking along the lines of, “maybe 5-10 years down the road I’ll have to have a comfort layer replaced”. (The mattress has a zipper and I could do that myself, if I had to.)
Is that a reasonable expectation, or am I ignoring red flags and alarm bells?
None of this speculation should be necessary if a manufacturer is transparent and the problem with speculating is that it’s very likely that some of what we are speculating about may be wrong so you would be buying a mattress based on incorrect information.
In addition to this … a mattress is only as durable as it’s weakest link so no matter how much higher quality and more durable materials a mattress may contain … the durability and useful life of the mattress will depend more on the lower quality and less durable materials that are inside it and I believe that the mattress you are looking at contains several different types of foam materials. It’s always important to assess a mattress based on all the layers and components inside it. It’s also important to know the specifics of the materials in order to make more reasonable “value” comparisons with other similar mattresses as well.
I don’t understand why it would be so difficult to identify the type, thickness, and density of each layer (or the type and blend of latex) in each layer of the mattress listed from the top down. When a manufacturer makes it this difficult to find out this information or uses names for their materials that are “proprietary” without identifying the specific type of material it’s generally to create a “marketing story” that is used to justify higher prices compared to other mattresses that use similar materials. Without this information it’s not really possible to make any meaningful comments about a mattress.
[quote]Part 1
Somehow I missed your earlier link to the J Ennis Fabrics catalog. Looking at the most recent version of their catalog, I see that Duron is listed with a density of 2.2 lbs/ft, and the Blue Foam and Qualux (found on the same page) that look similar to other BBD products are rated at 2.4 & 2.8.[/quote]
I don’t know for certain that the Duron they are using is the same material as the Duron in the catalog but all of these (the Duron, the Quaalux, and the Blue Foam) are all polyurethane foams which are much less costly than latex. Once again … if you look at the law tag it will tell you if there is any latex in the mattress you are considering (although it won’t tell you the type and blend of the latex or the thickness of the layer).
NOTE ADDED: I have talked with Chad and have confirmed that none of the materials in any of the Beds by Design mattresses are either synthetic or natural latex and they are versions of polyfoam. Some of the materials are high performance polyfoams that are certainly a good quality material and have many of the properties of latex but are less costly than “real” latex (synthetic or natural).
[quote]Part 2
One of your other posts about BBD mentioned that they used to get a product from Carpenter. That sounds like the factory Chad mentioned on the phone with me. On their website, they have a picture of an Avena product that looks like one of the BBD comfort layers. Carpenter says Avena is “more comfortable that latex”.[/quote]
Carpenter is the largest polyurethane manufacturer in the US but they don’t make latex. Avena is a high performance polyurethane foam with “latex like” properties and is a good quality and durable material but it’s also a much lower cost material than latex. You can read a little more about some of the high performance polyfoams that are being made by many foam pourers in post #2 here.
Engineered foam is generally foam layers that have various cutouts to change the feel and performance of the material or to create different firmness zones in a material (you can see some examples of engineered foam layers here and here)
[quote]Part 3
Comfort King had several copies of this flyer floating around their store and it was referred to when I started talking about BBD. It’s not exactly the kind of science that you’ll find in Nature. Instead it looks like CK commissioned Leggett & Platt to do some durability tests to prove how awesome their Innersprings are. The whole concept is kinda bogus because as you frequently mention, it’s not the core that breaks down as often as the comfort layers. Anyway, we don’t know what the red and green lines are, but since it was pulled out as soon as I mentioned BBD, I’m guessing they sent Leggett a CK mattress and a BBD mattress. If they did, the most telling part of this whole document is that Leggett rated the “Foam Core” as “HR Quality”.[/quote]
Leggett & Platt does these types of studies all the time and makes them available to manufacturers in the industry so they don’t need to be “commissioned” by any specific manufacturer. They probably just put their own name on some existing L&P promotional material. As you mentioned … it’s generally the upper layers of a mattress that are the first to soften or break down and innersprings (or good quality foam base layers) aren’t generally the weakest link of a mattress. Having said that … innersprings themselves are generally a very durable component.
[quote]So let’s assume (at least until Chad writes me back) that BBD is using HD/HR polyfoam of 2.2-2.8 lb/ft densities. What are your recommendations on that kind of material? What kind of durability can we expect? Any clue on the general prices of these kinds of components? (like, in comparison to natural latex)
Once again, I need to repeat they had the one mattress that my wife and I both considered the most comfortable, and we’re picky. I don’t think I could convince myself to choose something less comfortable for minimal gains in value or durability. So I’m primarily thinking along the lines of, “maybe 5-10 years down the road I’ll have to have a comfort layer replaced”. (The mattress has a zipper and I could do that myself, if I had to.)
Is that a reasonable expectation, or am I ignoring red flags and alarm bells?[/quote]
I would generally prefer to wait until you have the accurate specs so that you don’t have to assume anything.
Having said that … while there is no way to quantify how long any mattress will last for a specific person or predict exactly when you will decide to replace it because it is no longer suitable or comfortable for you (because this is the only real measure of durability or the useful life of a mattress that really matters) because there are too many unknowns and variables involved that are unique to each person … if a mattress is well inside a suitable comfort/support range and isn’t close to the edge of being too soft when it is new (see post #2 here) and meets the minimum quality/durability specs that are suggested in the guidelines here then it would be reasonable to expect a useful lifetime in the range of 7 - 10 years and with higher quality and more durable materials like latex or higher density memory foam or polyfoam (in the comfort layers especially) it would likely be in the higher end of the range or even longer (longer would be what I call “bonus time”).
There is also more detailed information about the many variables that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress relative to different people in post #4 here and the posts it links to.
Polyfoam is significantly less costly than latex. Some of the “simplified choice” mattresses listed here use high performance polyfoam materials in their comfort layers and Tuft & Needle for example uses 3" of 2.8 lb high performance polyfoam on top of a 1.8 lb polyfoam support core and sells for $600 in a queen size (before any discounts). The Arctic Dreams mattress here uses 3 lb high performance polyfoam on top of a 1.8 lb base layer as well and sells for $259.99 in queen (although this is an unusually low price for these materials and is probably an introductory price). Brooklyn Bedding’s BestMattressEver here uses 2" of blended Talalay latex and 2" of synthetic Dunlop latex (blended Talalay latex is more costly than synthetic Dunlop and both of these are more costly than high performance polyfoam) on top of a 2 lb polyfoam base layer and sells for $750 in a queen (again before any discounts). The KISS mattress here uses 1.5" of blended Talalay latex on top of 1.5" of a 4 lb high performance polyfoam on top of a 2 lb polyfoam base layer and sells for $795 in a queen (again before any discounts). ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: kissmattress.com/products/latexandfoam?variant=1978572100
While I certainly agree that “comfort” and PPP are the most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase and these may not be completely “apples to apples” comparisons because they aren’t component mattresses, they may not have completely comparable layers or components, and they are also sold online so you can’t test them before a purchase … these can give you some reference points compared to some good quality/value mattress that use at least some similar materials for all the other parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase that may also be important to you.
I sent an email to Chad yesterday as well and haven’t heard back. Beds&Beds carries Corsicana and Glideaway. Furnituremart carries Restonic…not sure on any other quality companies in this area and I’d rather not purchase online.
Hopefully you will be able to find out the information you need and if you do it would be great to post the layering information on the forum as well.
Corsicana is generally a “promotional brand” that specializes in mattresses that are in lower budget ranges but they usually aren’t completely transparent about the layers and components in their mattresses either (see this article).
Glideaway is a smaller manufacturer that makes some good quality/value mattresses and are typically more transparent about the materials inside them than most of the larger manufacturers but this will also depend on the retailer that sells them and their willingness to find out any specs they aren’t aware of from the factory.
Restonic is a licensee brand that is made by different manufacturers across the country some of which are more transparent than others about the type and quality of the materials in their mattresses. They have some reasonable quality/value mattresses but finding out the specifics that you need to know will also depend on the retailer as well and their willingness to call the factory and find out any information you need about the specific mattresses they are selling.
I did a quick review of the stores in your area to see if there were any others that may be worth considering but the 4 stores in the Sioux Falls list are still the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in your area (although of course there may be other “possibilities” that I’m not aware of or didn’t find).
I just spent an hour face-to-face with Chad, the owner. He gave me the data sheets for his products, and we had a candid conversation about the products in his beds and the reasons he uses the terms that he does. He was completely transparent and truthful with me. However, I promised him that I would not betray his confidence and post details without his consent. (With the papers he gave me, I could essentially open a competing mattress factory and make his exact beds.)
Chad is interested in having an email or phone conversation with you, Phoenix. He thanks you for bringing me and Quickstrike to his store, and a good chunk of our discussion was about how to use your website for educational purposes for the nerdier folks (like me) who really want to know about bedding materials. I’ll private message his contact details to you.
Quickstrike, feel free to ask Chad directly, but I can tell you this. The foam is not latex. It’s 100% poly. As far as I can tell, the poly is of high quality and exceeds the Phoenix’s guidelines.
Most of this thread was a confusion over the term “synthetic latex” because Phoenix uses it to mean “latex made from styrene butadiene” and Chad uses the term to mean “a synthetic substance with latex-like properties”. Kind of like how synthetic turf (astroturf) is not actually grass, but grass-like. Until you and I started talking about it with Chad, he didn’t even realize that he might not be using the right term. So, from that perspective, you can see how every time I asked about the quality of their latex, they always responded with “it’s 100% synthetic” and thought that they were being completely truthful even though it’s not latex.
Personally, I think Chad’s being a tad paranoid by inventing in-house names for his materials (rather than using the names you could easily google), but considering how hostile Comfort King is about his business, I can understand his reluctance to divulge anything in public that would allow them to attack his products or steal his concepts.
And Comfort King, if you read this… stop bashing Beds by Design. At this point, you guys make significantly different products that appeal to different people. A good number of customers actually buy their beds from Chad because of the hostility they feel at CK toward him.
Thanks for all the help, Phoenix.
Kind regards,
David
PS The Comfort King graph did not use a Beds by Design mattress. I felt I should clear that up, since I brought it up.
Bummer that there’s no latex in their Duron. I’m as confused as ever and not sure where to go now. I don’t want to spend $3K on Poly if it’s not going to last.
