Ok thank you. My wife and I really like the Ultra series Ultra comfort with the synergy core. Chad was easy to deal with and helpful as opposed to CK. I felt like they were adament that I need a bed with somnigel because of my size. I liked the Everest there but didn’t get a chance to show my wife because she was sold on the BBD mattress. I felt like we were getting a pretty good deal and they’re even willing to let us trade in the box spring for the adjustable if we decided down the line.
Hi dbergan,
While comfort and PPP is certainly the most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase … I would also be very cautious about buying any mattress where you don’t know the type and quality/durability of all the materials and components inside it because how long you sleep well is also a very important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase and there is little value in buying a mattress that softens or breaks down prematurely no matter how it may feel in a showroom or when it is new.
I don’t believe that you are correct here (I’m pretty sure that you’re not) and I would be very cautious about providing information to someone else that you haven’t confirmed is correct. Have you confirmed that your mattress is all latex? Have you looked at the law tag to see which type of materials are listed there?
NOTE ADDED: I have talked with Chad and have confirmed that none of the materials in any of the Beds by Design mattresses are either synthetic or natural latex and they are versions of polyfoam. Some of the materials are high performance polyfoams that are certainly a good quality material and have many of the properties of latex but are less costly than “real” latex (synthetic or natural).
I would keep in mind that the length of a mattress warranty has very little to do with the durability or useful life of a mattress or more importantly how long it may be before you need to replace it. Warranties only cover defects in a mattress and not the gradual (or rapid in the case of lower quality materials) loss of comfort and support that is the main reason people will need to replace their mattress. There is more about mattress warranties in post #174 here.
If you can’t find out the information you need to know about the type, quality, and durability of the materials in a mattress then it’s not transparent at all since a consumer would have no idea what they are “feeling and fondling”.
I would want to know that it was synthetic latex in the first place. Not knowing what is in a mattress doesn’t necessarily mean that they are using “cheap poly knockoffs” it only means that they could be and that you won’t be in a position to make an informed choice or make meaningful comparisons with other mattress. Suggesting that a “lack of necessary information” or that not being able to find out the information you need to know to make an informed choice about the quality and durability of a mattress is somehow OK is just plain bad advice.
Phoenix
The owner/founder told me on the phone that their foams (other than OmniFlow and the polyfoams that they are upfront about) are 100% synthetic Dunlop latex. He rattled off the details to me of how the process works at the manufacturer’s factory, and told me the name and location of the factory (which I didn’t get written down). He explained how he used to use all natural latex and then switched because synthetic blends had greater durability. They showed me a law tag (even though the tag was pretty generic).
Are you saying he’s outright lying? Or how else do you suggest I confirm that it is indeed synthetic latex?
To me it’s understandable that the employees at BBD don’t have the chemical formula of their foams memorized. They don’t make them, they just use them. Only one or two guys per decade ask them about it. Consider: I don’t know all the ingredients in bread, but I still can use it to make a good sandwich. Also, Comfort King doesn’t know anything about the chemical nature of somnigel (water in gel form!), yet they still can make their mattresses with it.
It’s healthy to be skeptical, but at some point you have to trust something. If you think the CEO is willing to lie to customers about the basic nature of his company’s products, why would you trust the law tag? Should I take my mattress to a chemical deconstruction lab and pay $20,000 to have it analyzed? What exactly are the signs that make you so suspicious of BBD?
Kind regards,
David
Hi dbergan,
If the law tag says 100% latex then it would probably be all latex (even though it wouldn’t specify the type or blend of the latex).
There is also more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here.
Based on the videos I’ve seen … it’s possible that one of the layers with the pincore holes (probably the Duron) is latex (although it could also be something else as well) … but the rest of the materials certainly didn’t look like latex to me.
NOTE ADDED: I have talked with Chad and have confirmed that none of the materials in any of the Beds by Design mattresses are either synthetic or natural latex and they are versions of polyfoam. Some of the materials are high performance polyfoams that are certainly a good quality material and have many of the properties of latex but are less costly than “real” latex (synthetic or natural).
If you ask him again and post the information on the forum it would probably be helpful to identify what he is using.
Nobody needs to know the chemical formula of a material … just the thickness, type, and density (in the case of memory foam or polyfoam) or the thickness, type and blend (in the case of latex) of all the layers in the mattress.
I also know that in the past they used to call one of the foams they used latex when it wasn’t (see post #2 here)
Providing incorrect information doesn’t mean they are lying if they believe what they are telling you is correct (even if it isn’t) … they could just be misinformed.
It’s really not all that difficult to find out all the information here for any mattress you are purchasing if you are dealing with a transparent manufacturer and to also check the law tag for your mattress (and post a picture on the forum if you wish as well). This is the “basic” information that you need to make an informed choice and to make more meaningful comparisons with other mattresses in terms of quality and durability … no more and no less.
Phoenix
I think I see where you’re coming from.
Part 1
Somehow I missed your earlier link to the J Ennis Fabrics catalog. Looking at the most recent version of their catalog, I see that Duron is listed with a density of 2.2 lbs/ft, and the Blue Foam and Qualux (found on the same page) that look similar to other BBD products are rated at 2.4 & 2.8.
Part 2
One of your other posts about BBD mentioned that they used to get a product from Carpenter. That sounds like the factory Chad mentioned on the phone with me. On their website, they have a picture of an Avena product that looks like one of the BBD comfort layers. Carpenter says Avena is “more comfortable that latex”.
Also, Carpenter has a section labeled Engineered Foam Mattresses], where they describe working with their factory to get the kind of mattress foam that you want, which is basically what Chad had described to me for the OmniFlow product.
Part 3
Comfort King had several copies of this flyer floating around their store and it was referred to when I started talking about BBD. It’s not exactly the kind of science that you’ll find in Nature. Instead it looks like CK commissioned Leggett & Platt to do some durability tests to prove how awesome their Innersprings are. The whole concept is kinda bogus because as you frequently mention, it’s not the core that breaks down as often as the comfort layers. Anyway, we don’t know what the red and green lines are, but since it was pulled out as soon as I mentioned BBD, I’m guessing they sent Leggett a CK mattress and a BBD mattress. If they did, the most telling part of this whole document is that Leggett rated the “Foam Core” as “HR Quality”.
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So let’s assume (at least until Chad writes me back) that BBD is using HD/HR polyfoam of 2.2-2.8 lb/ft densities. What are your recommendations on that kind of material? What kind of durability can we expect? Any clue on the general prices of these kinds of components? (like, in comparison to natural latex)
Once again, I need to repeat they had the one mattress that my wife and I both considered the most comfortable, and we’re picky. I don’t think I could convince myself to choose something less comfortable for minimal gains in value or durability. So I’m primarily thinking along the lines of, “maybe 5-10 years down the road I’ll have to have a comfort layer replaced”. (The mattress has a zipper and I could do that myself, if I had to.)
Is that a reasonable expectation, or am I ignoring red flags and alarm bells?
Kind regards,
David
Hi dbergan,
None of this speculation should be necessary if a manufacturer is transparent and the problem with speculating is that it’s very likely that some of what we are speculating about may be wrong so you would be buying a mattress based on incorrect information.
In addition to this … a mattress is only as durable as it’s weakest link so no matter how much higher quality and more durable materials a mattress may contain … the durability and useful life of the mattress will depend more on the lower quality and less durable materials that are inside it and I believe that the mattress you are looking at contains several different types of foam materials. It’s always important to assess a mattress based on all the layers and components inside it. It’s also important to know the specifics of the materials in order to make more reasonable “value” comparisons with other similar mattresses as well.
I don’t understand why it would be so difficult to identify the type, thickness, and density of each layer (or the type and blend of latex) in each layer of the mattress listed from the top down. When a manufacturer makes it this difficult to find out this information or uses names for their materials that are “proprietary” without identifying the specific type of material it’s generally to create a “marketing story” that is used to justify higher prices compared to other mattresses that use similar materials. Without this information it’s not really possible to make any meaningful comments about a mattress.
[quote]Part 1
Somehow I missed your earlier link to the J Ennis Fabrics catalog. Looking at the most recent version of their catalog, I see that Duron is listed with a density of 2.2 lbs/ft, and the Blue Foam and Qualux (found on the same page) that look similar to other BBD products are rated at 2.4 & 2.8.[/quote]
I don’t know for certain that the Duron they are using is the same material as the Duron in the catalog but all of these (the Duron, the Quaalux, and the Blue Foam) are all polyurethane foams which are much less costly than latex. Once again … if you look at the law tag it will tell you if there is any latex in the mattress you are considering (although it won’t tell you the type and blend of the latex or the thickness of the layer).
NOTE ADDED: I have talked with Chad and have confirmed that none of the materials in any of the Beds by Design mattresses are either synthetic or natural latex and they are versions of polyfoam. Some of the materials are high performance polyfoams that are certainly a good quality material and have many of the properties of latex but are less costly than “real” latex (synthetic or natural).
[quote]Part 2
One of your other posts about BBD mentioned that they used to get a product from Carpenter. That sounds like the factory Chad mentioned on the phone with me. On their website, they have a picture of an Avena product that looks like one of the BBD comfort layers. Carpenter says Avena is “more comfortable that latex”.[/quote]
Carpenter is the largest polyurethane manufacturer in the US but they don’t make latex. Avena is a high performance polyurethane foam with “latex like” properties and is a good quality and durable material but it’s also a much lower cost material than latex. You can read a little more about some of the high performance polyfoams that are being made by many foam pourers in post #2 here.
Engineered foam is generally foam layers that have various cutouts to change the feel and performance of the material or to create different firmness zones in a material (you can see some examples of engineered foam layers here and here)
[quote]Part 3
Comfort King had several copies of this flyer floating around their store and it was referred to when I started talking about BBD. It’s not exactly the kind of science that you’ll find in Nature. Instead it looks like CK commissioned Leggett & Platt to do some durability tests to prove how awesome their Innersprings are. The whole concept is kinda bogus because as you frequently mention, it’s not the core that breaks down as often as the comfort layers. Anyway, we don’t know what the red and green lines are, but since it was pulled out as soon as I mentioned BBD, I’m guessing they sent Leggett a CK mattress and a BBD mattress. If they did, the most telling part of this whole document is that Leggett rated the “Foam Core” as “HR Quality”.[/quote]
Leggett & Platt does these types of studies all the time and makes them available to manufacturers in the industry so they don’t need to be “commissioned” by any specific manufacturer. They probably just put their own name on some existing L&P promotional material. As you mentioned … it’s generally the upper layers of a mattress that are the first to soften or break down and innersprings (or good quality foam base layers) aren’t generally the weakest link of a mattress. Having said that … innersprings themselves are generally a very durable component.
[quote]So let’s assume (at least until Chad writes me back) that BBD is using HD/HR polyfoam of 2.2-2.8 lb/ft densities. What are your recommendations on that kind of material? What kind of durability can we expect? Any clue on the general prices of these kinds of components? (like, in comparison to natural latex)
Once again, I need to repeat they had the one mattress that my wife and I both considered the most comfortable, and we’re picky. I don’t think I could convince myself to choose something less comfortable for minimal gains in value or durability. So I’m primarily thinking along the lines of, “maybe 5-10 years down the road I’ll have to have a comfort layer replaced”. (The mattress has a zipper and I could do that myself, if I had to.)
Is that a reasonable expectation, or am I ignoring red flags and alarm bells?[/quote]
I would generally prefer to wait until you have the accurate specs so that you don’t have to assume anything.
Having said that … while there is no way to quantify how long any mattress will last for a specific person or predict exactly when you will decide to replace it because it is no longer suitable or comfortable for you (because this is the only real measure of durability or the useful life of a mattress that really matters) because there are too many unknowns and variables involved that are unique to each person … if a mattress is well inside a suitable comfort/support range and isn’t close to the edge of being too soft when it is new (see post #2 here) and meets the minimum quality/durability specs that are suggested in the guidelines here then it would be reasonable to expect a useful lifetime in the range of 7 - 10 years and with higher quality and more durable materials like latex or higher density memory foam or polyfoam (in the comfort layers especially) it would likely be in the higher end of the range or even longer (longer would be what I call “bonus time”).
There is also more detailed information about the many variables that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress relative to different people in post #4 here and the posts it links to.
Polyfoam is significantly less costly than latex. Some of the “simplified choice” mattresses listed here use high performance polyfoam materials in their comfort layers and Tuft & Needle for example uses 3" of 2.8 lb high performance polyfoam on top of a 1.8 lb polyfoam support core and sells for $600 in a queen size (before any discounts). The Arctic Dreams mattress here uses 3 lb high performance polyfoam on top of a 1.8 lb base layer as well and sells for $259.99 in queen (although this is an unusually low price for these materials and is probably an introductory price). Brooklyn Bedding’s BestMattressEver here uses 2" of blended Talalay latex and 2" of synthetic Dunlop latex (blended Talalay latex is more costly than synthetic Dunlop and both of these are more costly than high performance polyfoam) on top of a 2 lb polyfoam base layer and sells for $750 in a queen (again before any discounts). The KISS mattress here uses 1.5" of blended Talalay latex on top of 1.5" of a 4 lb high performance polyfoam on top of a 2 lb polyfoam base layer and sells for $795 in a queen (again before any discounts).
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While I certainly agree that “comfort” and PPP are the most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase and these may not be completely “apples to apples” comparisons because they aren’t component mattresses, they may not have completely comparable layers or components, and they are also sold online so you can’t test them before a purchase … these can give you some reference points compared to some good quality/value mattress that use at least some similar materials for all the other parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase that may also be important to you.
Phoenix
I sent an email to Chad yesterday as well and haven’t heard back. Beds&Beds carries Corsicana and Glideaway. Furnituremart carries Restonic…not sure on any other quality companies in this area and I’d rather not purchase online.
Neil responded back and said dbergan will be posting the answers from Chad tonight. I was invited down to the store to speak with Chad as well…
Hi Quickstrike,
Hopefully you will be able to find out the information you need and if you do it would be great to post the layering information on the forum as well.
Corsicana is generally a “promotional brand” that specializes in mattresses that are in lower budget ranges but they usually aren’t completely transparent about the layers and components in their mattresses either (see this article).
Glideaway is a smaller manufacturer that makes some good quality/value mattresses and are typically more transparent about the materials inside them than most of the larger manufacturers but this will also depend on the retailer that sells them and their willingness to find out any specs they aren’t aware of from the factory.
Restonic is a licensee brand that is made by different manufacturers across the country some of which are more transparent than others about the type and quality of the materials in their mattresses. They have some reasonable quality/value mattresses but finding out the specifics that you need to know will also depend on the retailer as well and their willingness to call the factory and find out any information you need about the specific mattresses they are selling.
I did a quick review of the stores in your area to see if there were any others that may be worth considering but the 4 stores in the Sioux Falls list are still the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in your area (although of course there may be other “possibilities” that I’m not aware of or didn’t find).
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I just spent an hour face-to-face with Chad, the owner. He gave me the data sheets for his products, and we had a candid conversation about the products in his beds and the reasons he uses the terms that he does. He was completely transparent and truthful with me. However, I promised him that I would not betray his confidence and post details without his consent. (With the papers he gave me, I could essentially open a competing mattress factory and make his exact beds.)
Chad is interested in having an email or phone conversation with you, Phoenix. He thanks you for bringing me and Quickstrike to his store, and a good chunk of our discussion was about how to use your website for educational purposes for the nerdier folks (like me) who really want to know about bedding materials. I’ll private message his contact details to you.
Quickstrike, feel free to ask Chad directly, but I can tell you this. The foam is not latex. It’s 100% poly. As far as I can tell, the poly is of high quality and exceeds the Phoenix’s guidelines.
Most of this thread was a confusion over the term “synthetic latex” because Phoenix uses it to mean “latex made from styrene butadiene” and Chad uses the term to mean “a synthetic substance with latex-like properties”. Kind of like how synthetic turf (astroturf) is not actually grass, but grass-like. Until you and I started talking about it with Chad, he didn’t even realize that he might not be using the right term. So, from that perspective, you can see how every time I asked about the quality of their latex, they always responded with “it’s 100% synthetic” and thought that they were being completely truthful even though it’s not latex.
Personally, I think Chad’s being a tad paranoid by inventing in-house names for his materials (rather than using the names you could easily google), but considering how hostile Comfort King is about his business, I can understand his reluctance to divulge anything in public that would allow them to attack his products or steal his concepts.
And Comfort King, if you read this… stop bashing Beds by Design. At this point, you guys make significantly different products that appeal to different people. A good number of customers actually buy their beds from Chad because of the hostility they feel at CK toward him.
Thanks for all the help, Phoenix.
Kind regards,
David
PS The Comfort King graph did not use a Beds by Design mattress. I felt I should clear that up, since I brought it up.
Bummer that there’s no latex in their Duron. I’m as confused as ever and not sure where to go now. I don’t want to spend $3K on Poly if it’s not going to last.
Hi dbergan,
This certainly wouldn’t be the case if all he disclosed is the type and quality/density of the materials in his mattresses because he wouldn’t need to disclose the “comfort specs” or other information that would be the biggest part of how a mattress feels (see the previous posts I linked about disclosing so called “proprietary” inforamtion. Any manufacturer that was truly interested in “duplicating” one of his mattresses also would have no trouble buying one if they wanted to and “reverse engineering” it anyway.
Mattress manufacturers generally try to differentiate their mattress from the mattresses made by other manufacturers anyway and don’t normally try to “match” another mattress that is made by a different manufacturer.
Yes he emailed me as well and over the course of the next few days I will give him a call and talk with him when I have the chance but he would need to be more transparent and accurate about the materials he uses in his mattresses in order to qualify for membership here (transparency about the type and quality of the materials in a mattress is the single biggest criteria for membership in the site).
[quote]Quickstrike, feel free to ask Chad directly, but I can tell you this. The foam is not latex. It’s 100% poly. As far as I can tell, the poly is of high quality and exceeds the Phoenix’s guidelines.
Most of this thread was a confusion over the term “synthetic latex” because Phoenix uses it to mean “latex made from styrene butadiene” and Chad uses the term to mean “a synthetic substance with latex-like properties”.[/quote]
“Synthetic latex” has a very specific meaning which isn’t really a matter of “confusion” at all. If the foam isn’t latex (either natural or synthetic or a blend of both) then I believe that it’s misleading to call it “synthetic latex” when it isn’t because people will compare it to other mattresses that use synthetic or other types of latex which is a much more costly material.
NOTE ADDED: I have talked with Chad and have confirmed that none of the materials in any of the Beds by Design mattresses are either synthetic or natural latex and they are versions of polyfoam. Some of the materials are high performance polyfoams that are certainly a good quality material and have many of the properties of latex but are less costly than “real” latex (synthetic or natural).
I would agree with this as well and again I don’t believe that disclosing accurate information about the type and quality of the materials in a mattress would allow others to “attack” his products or “steal” his concepts (there are many components mattresses available in the market) and it would certainly inspire a higher level of consumer trust and confidence about the accuracy of the all the information they provide.
I would agree that there is little point in “bashing” competitors in either direction since it just strains credibility and I believe that it’s better to just focus on the specific benefits and materials of your own mattresses and let consumers make an “informed choice” about which mattress represents the best “value” for them (regardless of whether anyone else would make the same choice) based on all the parts of their personal value equation that are most important to them.
Phoenix
High quality poly will last. So the real question isn’t “is this latex?” but “will it last?” As far as I can tell, the poly meets (and in some cases greatly exceeds) the guidelines Phoenix put on the page about long-lasting poly. Hopefully Phoenix can confirm this in the next couple days.
Kind regards,
David
Ok. I’ve watched CK videos multiple times and only a few beds use more than 1" of latex.
Hi dbergan,
While it’s true that higher quality/density polyfoam is a high quality and long lasting material … latex in general is the most durable of all the different foam materials (polyfoam, memory foam, latex foam).
While it’s also true that comfort and PPP along with durability are important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase … I certainly wouldn’t agree that it’s the only “real question” because there are also many other parts of value that may be important to different people for many reasons and I certainly wouldn’t be happy if I purchased a mattress that I believe contained latex and found out afterwards that it didn’t. It would be something like buying a piece of furniture that I believed or was told used real wood and had real wood prices only to find out afterwards that it was made of MDF with a veneer that looked like wood and then being told that it would last “just as long” or that it has the “same functions”.
Phoenix
I let Neil know I’d like to cancel the order and do more research. I have to get the dog bed they gave me back there and I feel uncomfortable about having to go in. I wish I would have done a lot more research…
They believe it will last longer than natural or blended latex and that’s why they warranty it for so long. I guess my issue is the cost is in the upper tier of beds at CK who says they use natural latex. Their warranty isn’t as long however the research I’ve done shows it lasting longer than even the best poly.
Fair enough. For me latex isn’t a magic word. I went out of my way to order a $4700 latex mattress from Reverie and wait 5 weeks for it to be delivered only to be sorely disappointed. The first night, my wife could hardly sleep and wanted to go downstairs to our 10-year-old junk-brand spring+pillowtop mattress. After waiting 5 weeks, and convincing myself that I had purchased the best mattress I possibly could, I really wanted the Reverie mattress to work. Furthermore, I was (and still am) infatuated with the concept of a customizable core that I could fine-tune to my own spinal cord and neck-related issues. (I’m a huge DIY customizer type of person.) However, despite spending over 5 hours rearranging the latex cores to find something comfortable for us, I could only make it marginally better. Neither my wife nor I have had a good week of sleep. It’s too firm. It’s too thin.
Granted, that’s only one latex mattress that we tried. But that was theoretically the best one we could get online, and the one that we could customize to our firmness preferences. Since we don’t have a store that sells all-latex mattresses in Sioux Falls, trying others would require waiting 4-5 weeks apiece or spending a weekend in Omaha or the Cities.
For me, and I’ll emphasize that I’m only speaking for my own situation (since you pounced on my last post for writing in a more general sense), the two things I want to know are comfort (PPP) and durability. I want a great night’s sleep, and want that experience for as long as possible. Sure there are fanboys who want latex for the sake of latex. There are people who think “natural” or “organic” products are somehow inherently better than artificial ones. There are people who think SomniGel is water in a gel state. Yes, everyone has their own personal value matrix when it comes to buying products. However, I don’t think that any sane person would ignore my two criteria. They can add to it, but not subtract from it.
Latex sometimes means more durable. Latex sometimes means more supportive. Latex sometimes means more comfortable. Latex sometimes means more expensive. Latex sometimes means better value. You claim that “in general” latex is all of these. But isn’t it possible that some kinds of high quality poly could win in all these areas? I’m looking at data and charts that Chad provided me. It straight-up compares his materials to latex in the support/comfort/durability metrics and the results are convincing (to me) that he is using high quality materials when benchmarked against latex.
Sure, it was unfortunate that BBD was using the term “synthetic latex” improperly. And it would have been nice if BBD made it easier to get the information about their materials. But I now understand Chad’s motives for secrecy, given the mattress factory climate here in Sioux Falls. (Chad and I had similar entrepreneurial experiences… leaving a bigger company to start our own when certain promises weren’t kept. I feel his secrecy/transparency dilemma often.)
And, by the way, Phoenix, if you’re all about transparency, why don’t you use your real name on your website? Probably for similar reasons as Chad’s secrecy, when you think about it.
Thanks again for all your help, Phoenix. I wish you the best of luck finding the right mattress, Quickstrike.
Kind regards,
David
Hi Quickstrike,
As I mentioned in an earlier reply in this topic … I would keep in mind that the length of a mattress warranty has very little to do with the durability or useful life of a mattress or more importantly how long it may be before you need to replace it. Warranties only cover defects in a mattress and not the gradual (or rapid in the case of lower quality materials) loss of comfort and support that is the main reason people will need to replace their mattress. There is more about mattress warranties in post #174 here. Warranties that are longer than about 10 years or so are usually more about marketing than anything else.
Phoenix
Ok so my best bet is to go to CK and ask the important questions? Would you take BBd off your list? I really don’t want to order online if possible.