Hi dbergan,
None of this speculation should be necessary if a manufacturer is transparent and the problem with speculating is that it’s very likely that some of what we are speculating about may be wrong so you would be buying a mattress based on incorrect information.
In addition to this … a mattress is only as durable as it’s weakest link so no matter how much higher quality and more durable materials a mattress may contain … the durability and useful life of the mattress will depend more on the lower quality and less durable materials that are inside it and I believe that the mattress you are looking at contains several different types of foam materials. It’s always important to assess a mattress based on all the layers and components inside it. It’s also important to know the specifics of the materials in order to make more reasonable “value” comparisons with other similar mattresses as well.
I don’t understand why it would be so difficult to identify the type, thickness, and density of each layer (or the type and blend of latex) in each layer of the mattress listed from the top down. When a manufacturer makes it this difficult to find out this information or uses names for their materials that are “proprietary” without identifying the specific type of material it’s generally to create a “marketing story” that is used to justify higher prices compared to other mattresses that use similar materials. Without this information it’s not really possible to make any meaningful comments about a mattress.
[quote]Part 1
Somehow I missed your earlier link to the J Ennis Fabrics catalog. Looking at the most recent version of their catalog, I see that Duron is listed with a density of 2.2 lbs/ft, and the Blue Foam and Qualux (found on the same page) that look similar to other BBD products are rated at 2.4 & 2.8.[/quote]
I don’t know for certain that the Duron they are using is the same material as the Duron in the catalog but all of these (the Duron, the Quaalux, and the Blue Foam) are all polyurethane foams which are much less costly than latex. Once again … if you look at the law tag it will tell you if there is any latex in the mattress you are considering (although it won’t tell you the type and blend of the latex or the thickness of the layer).
NOTE ADDED: I have talked with Chad and have confirmed that none of the materials in any of the Beds by Design mattresses are either synthetic or natural latex and they are versions of polyfoam. Some of the materials are high performance polyfoams that are certainly a good quality material and have many of the properties of latex but are less costly than “real” latex (synthetic or natural).
[quote]Part 2
One of your other posts about BBD mentioned that they used to get a product from Carpenter. That sounds like the factory Chad mentioned on the phone with me. On their website, they have a picture of an Avena product that looks like one of the BBD comfort layers. Carpenter says Avena is “more comfortable that latex”.[/quote]
Carpenter is the largest polyurethane manufacturer in the US but they don’t make latex. Avena is a high performance polyurethane foam with “latex like” properties and is a good quality and durable material but it’s also a much lower cost material than latex. You can read a little more about some of the high performance polyfoams that are being made by many foam pourers in post #2 here.
Engineered foam is generally foam layers that have various cutouts to change the feel and performance of the material or to create different firmness zones in a material (you can see some examples of engineered foam layers here and here)
[quote]Part 3
Comfort King had several copies of this flyer floating around their store and it was referred to when I started talking about BBD. It’s not exactly the kind of science that you’ll find in Nature. Instead it looks like CK commissioned Leggett & Platt to do some durability tests to prove how awesome their Innersprings are. The whole concept is kinda bogus because as you frequently mention, it’s not the core that breaks down as often as the comfort layers. Anyway, we don’t know what the red and green lines are, but since it was pulled out as soon as I mentioned BBD, I’m guessing they sent Leggett a CK mattress and a BBD mattress. If they did, the most telling part of this whole document is that Leggett rated the “Foam Core” as “HR Quality”.[/quote]
Leggett & Platt does these types of studies all the time and makes them available to manufacturers in the industry so they don’t need to be “commissioned” by any specific manufacturer. They probably just put their own name on some existing L&P promotional material. As you mentioned … it’s generally the upper layers of a mattress that are the first to soften or break down and innersprings (or good quality foam base layers) aren’t generally the weakest link of a mattress. Having said that … innersprings themselves are generally a very durable component.
[quote]So let’s assume (at least until Chad writes me back) that BBD is using HD/HR polyfoam of 2.2-2.8 lb/ft densities. What are your recommendations on that kind of material? What kind of durability can we expect? Any clue on the general prices of these kinds of components? (like, in comparison to natural latex)
Once again, I need to repeat they had the one mattress that my wife and I both considered the most comfortable, and we’re picky. I don’t think I could convince myself to choose something less comfortable for minimal gains in value or durability. So I’m primarily thinking along the lines of, “maybe 5-10 years down the road I’ll have to have a comfort layer replaced”. (The mattress has a zipper and I could do that myself, if I had to.)
Is that a reasonable expectation, or am I ignoring red flags and alarm bells?[/quote]
I would generally prefer to wait until you have the accurate specs so that you don’t have to assume anything.
Having said that … while there is no way to quantify how long any mattress will last for a specific person or predict exactly when you will decide to replace it because it is no longer suitable or comfortable for you (because this is the only real measure of durability or the useful life of a mattress that really matters) because there are too many unknowns and variables involved that are unique to each person … if a mattress is well inside a suitable comfort/support range and isn’t close to the edge of being too soft when it is new (see post #2 here) and meets the minimum quality/durability specs that are suggested in the guidelines here then it would be reasonable to expect a useful lifetime in the range of 7 - 10 years and with higher quality and more durable materials like latex or higher density memory foam or polyfoam (in the comfort layers especially) it would likely be in the higher end of the range or even longer (longer would be what I call “bonus time”).
There is also more detailed information about the many variables that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress relative to different people in post #4 here and the posts it links to.
Polyfoam is significantly less costly than latex. Some of the “simplified choice” mattresses listed here use high performance polyfoam materials in their comfort layers and Tuft & Needle for example uses 3" of 2.8 lb high performance polyfoam on top of a 1.8 lb polyfoam support core and sells for $600 in a queen size (before any discounts). The Arctic Dreams mattress here uses 3 lb high performance polyfoam on top of a 1.8 lb base layer as well and sells for $259.99 in queen (although this is an unusually low price for these materials and is probably an introductory price). Brooklyn Bedding’s BestMattressEver here uses 2" of blended Talalay latex and 2" of synthetic Dunlop latex (blended Talalay latex is more costly than synthetic Dunlop and both of these are more costly than high performance polyfoam) on top of a 2 lb polyfoam base layer and sells for $750 in a queen (again before any discounts). The KISS mattress here uses 1.5" of blended Talalay latex on top of 1.5" of a 4 lb high performance polyfoam on top of a 2 lb polyfoam base layer and sells for $795 in a queen (again before any discounts).
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: kissmattress.com/products/latexandfoam?variant=1978572100
While I certainly agree that “comfort” and PPP are the most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase and these may not be completely “apples to apples” comparisons because they aren’t component mattresses, they may not have completely comparable layers or components, and they are also sold online so you can’t test them before a purchase … these can give you some reference points compared to some good quality/value mattress that use at least some similar materials for all the other parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase that may also be important to you.
Phoenix