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Hi john90803,
There are some suggestions in the help tab here that may be helpful if you are having trouble attaching a file to your post (document is now added)
You also need to disclose any of your own industry affiliations to post on the forum (see the forum rules here).
In looking at the Berkeley Ergonomics website here ⌠it appears that they are claiming that their covers are made with organic cotton and organic wool. Is this what you are having an issue with? I donât see any claims that their latex or that their mattress is organic.
As to the âvalueâ of their mattresses ⌠that is a more subjective assessment that would be based on each personâs criteria. As you know they have more than one mattress (including a mattress that uses 8" of latex and other components such as microcoils) and based on your type of âreductionistâ analysis any mattress (including any mattresses that you may be selling yourself) could be presented in a light that it wasnât âworth itâ.
I do agree with you that the use of âorganicâ terminology in the industry is often misleading and can certainly be confusing and as you know there are âlevelsâ of organic certifications (see post #2 here). I would also hazard a guess that most consumers that are looking for âorganicâ are really looking for âsafetyâ but that ⌠and many other false claims and misleading information in the industry ⌠is an issue industry wide.
Phoenix
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Hi John,
Iâve added the second document you sent me to your original post as well.
It actually comes from the BE website itself and makes clear that their cover is âmade fromâ organic wool and cotton which appears to be an accurate claim to me.
Perhaps Iâm just missing the point you are trying to make or why you are on such a vendetta against BE when their own website makes clear that their cover is âmade fromâ organic wool and cotton. It also makes clear that the mattress itself isnât organic (there is no Talalay latex that is certified organic).
If you believed that the mattress wasnât âgood valueâ by the criteria that were important to you then I donât know why you would have purchased it. There are many others that hold a very different opinion ⌠especially when they are compared to mainstream manufacturers.
Your post has more of the âtoneâ of someone that is trying to damage the reputation of a competitor and you are alleging that they are making claims that based on their own website they donât seem to be making.
Phoenix
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Hi john90803,
In your original post you alleged that Berkeley Ergonomics was making claims that either their mattresses or their covers are organic but the attachments that you provided makes clear that Berkeley Ergonomics arenât making this claim and are even going out of their way to make clear that their mattresses arenât organic.
The only claim that I can see that they are making is that their covers are âmade fromâ organic plein-air wool and organic cotton. In other words the only thing that they would need to validate is that both of these claims are accurate (that the wool and cotton they are using to make their covers are organic).
If a salesperson told you that the mattress itself was certified organic then they are clearly wrong and you would have good reason to be upset with that specific salesperson or the store you were dealing with that misrepresented their product ⌠but this isnât coming from Berkeley Ergonomics itself and your comments seemed to be directed to BE more than to a specific store or salesperson that was making claims that are in conflict with the BE website and possibly even their own website as well.
Phoenix
Ok i see what you are sayingâŚWe did not mean to imply that Berkeley claimed the entire mattress is organic. I will correct that in our first post right now. It was the dealer that told us the ENTIRE mattress was organic. We could provide you about 20 examples of the dealers false advertising and misleading emails if you wanted to see them but that is not what our post is about. If you would like us to remove that sentence we will.
Our post is just about BE not backing up their CERTIFIED organic claim to their mattress COVER.
So, to clarify, Berkeley never claimed the ENTIRE mattress was organic. They are just claiming the cover is certified organic, but wonât produce the documents to prove it!
The dealer is the one that mislead that the entire mattress was organic, not BE.
What this comes down to is, Berkeley claiming that their covers are organic, yet they apparently can not provide any kind of certification that verifies this fact.
YES! Thank you.
Hi gme109,
Based on what I read on their website ⌠what they are claiming is that the cover is âmade fromâ organic wool and organic cotton ⌠not that that the cover itself is certified organic. What they would need to be able to validate their claim is to show that the cotton and wool they are using to make their cover is organic ⌠not that the cover itself is organic (which may or may not be the case depending on whether the cover itself was certified).
I know this may seem to be a small point of differentiation but there are different âlevelsâ of certification that start with a certification for the raw agricultural materials (which can be USDA certified) and then go âup the lineâ to certifications for the components themselves and even to the mattress âas a wholeâ which can only be GOTS certified because the USDA doesnât certify actual products as being organic.
I certainly realize that all of this can be very confusing but itâs important that allegations are based on accurate information as well so that any criticism is accurate and âfairâ.
Phoenix
I know when it comes to food products, they can not state on the label that something is Organic, unless itâs Certified Organic.
Iâve spoken to a few food manufactures that have told me that their product is indeed organic, put they havenât yet gotten the Certification, so it can not be labeled as such. I would imagine the same rule applies to mattress manufactures as well, they can not label their product as organic, unless itâs been Certified. But I guess this doesnât apply to making that statement on a website.
Thank you gme109!!!
Just because the cover is not Certified Organic, doesnât mean itâs not Organic, but you would have to take the manufactures word on that.
When the word âcertifiedâ is used, the certification needs to be available upon request. No other firm has a problem when asked.
Someone at one of the certifying firms said it best; âyou canât claim what you canât proveâ.
Phoenix, on this site, has been so annoying we donât even care anymore. He went on, and on, and on, in emails to us how he is certain we are 'in the mattress industry" and have a vendetta against BE, because consumers âdonât make posts like oursâ.
We totally regret posting on the site.
Happy holidays to all.
Hi gme109 and john90803,
There is more information in post #2 here and the post it links to about organic certifications and what can and canât be labelled as organic.
Organic certifications for foods are different from organic certifications for textiles although both of them can be somewhat confusing. There are different âtypesâ of organic certifications for textiles while food is all USDA certified through the NOP (National Organic Program) run by the USDA.
Phoenix
Hi john90803,
The content of the emails we exchanged was very similar to my comments on this thread and once again you are misrepresenting their content. You are free to post our entire email exchange in this topic if you wish.
I can also restore the content of your original posts before you deleted them if you wish so that the context and information that they were referring to is also clear.
The focus of this site is accuracy and balance so that the members that post here are just as accountable for the content of what they post or the allegations and claims they make as they would want the retailers and manufacturers that they purchase from to be.
Phoenix
Seems like all that BE has ever claimed is that the cover is âmade fromâ organic materials. Did they ever have anything posted anywhere that said the cover was âcertified organic?â
I didnât see the phase âCertified Organicâ anywhere on their site.
Here is the description of their latex mattress.
Choice of solid or gently zoned 6" support core made from 100% natural Talalay latex
2" of 100% natural Talalay latex comfort layer
Breathable organic cotton cover quilted to pure organic wool for a cool, dry sleep climate
Certified healthy components
Motion free gentle support
Durable and consistent over time
Free from synthetics and fillers
Dual-sided firmness option for couples
Four firmness options per model
If a mattress or cover is certified organic, I would imagine youâd see one of these labels on the mattress or displayed on a website.